Politics of Cartridge Minimums?

[Sideshow]

Pretty sure Bell wounded a s**tload of elephants,and Rhodesians relied on semi Auto and large magazine.

Don’t know about Bell wounding a load…..by all accounts he was a very very good shot. A lot is made of him using the 7x57 but he did use a few others to take more he used to use his .318 Richards to shot cormorant in flight.

 

[HankBuck]

I just got back from a spring bear hunt in Idaho. Sitting for days on glassing knobs looking for bears generates lots of interesting conversations with your hunting partners...haha.

I figured I'd throw this out there for the guys that know the most about hunting in Africa, dangerous game cartridges and so on.

One day we concluded that the dangerous game cartridge minimums in Africa are largely a result of British politics. Tons of evidence exists where dangerous game has been cleanly harvested with smaller calibers. The Rhodesians were culling elephants with .308 military rifles...and they were very proud of how quickly and cleanly they could put down a large herd. We all have read about how Bell shot lots of elephants with a 7mm.

I believe in the early colonization of Africa, the British dominated the medium/large bore firearms and ammunition market. It wasn't until the 1950's (I believe) that the US jumped in with the .458 Win Mag. Could it be they wanted to force visiting hunters to have to use their rifles/ammo so made rules to ensure this? Almost like creating a club and the price of entry was you have to have these certain rifles and calibers?

I'm not challenging the minimums as I enjoy shoot medium/large bore rifles and I've hunted dangerous game in Zim. I'm just always wondering why the rules came to be when the governments themselves have and continue to contradict the minimums for dangerous game.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

@Drexel64742 - I understand the logic behind minimum calibers for Elephant, Rhino (where legal) and maybe buffalo — but requiring a minimum of .375 for Leopard (a 140lb.-190lb Cat ) seems excessive and I would point to the success in Countries withOUT that .375 minimum where .300wm, .7mag, .30-06 seem commonly used on Leopard and highly successful. How many Hunters “flinch” with that .375 and make a poor shot? The Magnum Mentality is also well embedded in the U.S. and many think a .30-06 is now “marginal” for Elk. I read that the .30-06 is still one of the Five most popular calibers used on Elk —- as it was back in the 1930’s. The difference TODAY is that it is the “Least powerful” of the Five most popular calibers and in the 1930s it was the MOST powerful. The Elk haven’t changed in 90 years but marketing and perception have led Hunters to believe a “Magnum” is needed.

 

[BryceM]

One big factor was bullet quality. We're pretty spoiled these days, as true bullet failures on DG are reasonably rare. Back "in the day" the metallurgy, consistency, and precision just weren't there. Like most things, the laws on the book haven't kept up with realities in the field. Either way, any cartridge capable of being fielded by a hunter looks pretty puny when heading out for elephant.

For the cats, I think it's perfectly reasonable to use something in the .270-300 range for leopard and .300-.338 range for lion. Funny though, when you're on the ground with them, they all seem pretty small somehow.......

For the heavies, I'm just fine with .375 and up.

 

[375Fox]

The Magnum Mentality is also well embedded in the U.S. and many think a .30-06 is now “marginal” for Elk. I read that the .30-06 is still one of the Five most popular calibers used on Elk —- as it was back in the 1930’s. The difference TODAY is that it is the “Least powerful” of the Five most popular calibers and in the 1930s it was the MOST powerful. The Elk haven’t changed in 90 years but marketing and perception have led Hunters to believe a “Magnum” is needed.

The elk haven’t changed in 90 years but the hunting methods have. In the 1930s, hunters were using rifles with open sights and the ranges were relatively close. 2024 nearly every rifle used for elk hunting will have a scope and 200+ yards isn’t a long shot at all anymore. Maybe it’s the “magnum mentality” but other factors have changed. A cartridge that can’t shoot flat and still deliver energy at a distance is an advantage today that it wasn’t then.

 

[PCC600]

Don’t know about Bell wounding a load…..by all accounts he was a very very good shot. A lot is made of him using the 7x57 but he did use a few others to take more he used to use his .318 Richards to shot cormorant in flight.

And by the end of his career in Africa he was using a 416 Rigby . Clearly he felt he needed a more powerful rifle after WW1.

 

[Ridge Runner]

The barrel length rules may have more to do with avoiding easily concealed handguns than any sort of ballistic reason.

I stepped away for a bit to try and locate South Africa's regulations regarding handguns for hunting. I couldn't readily find the information as being in any of my downloaded files, so I went to Google and nothing immediately popped up on that particular information. But I did find information on handgun possession, use, carry conceal (NO handgun is to be seen, open carried, to include the holster), who can and cannot carry, etc., etc., but no information on handgun hunting regulations....Yet. I'll do more searching later this evening, and then copy and paste the information here when I find it.

 

[HankBuck]

The elk haven’t changed in 90 years but the hunting methods have. In the 1930s, hunters were using rifles with open sights and the ranges were relatively close. 2024 nearly every rifle used for elk hunting will have a scope and 200+ yards isn’t a long shot at all anymore. Maybe it’s the “magnum mentality” but other factors have changed. A cartridge that can’t shoot flat and still deliver energy at a distance is an advantage today that it wasn’t then.

@375Fox: there is no appreciable difference between a .30-06 and .300wm out to 300 yrds. With standard 180gr bullets you have only 1” less drop with the .300wm. It is meaningless in a hunting situation. The .300wm does generate 12% more power but also 50% more recoil - it is a very inefficient cartridge compared to a .308 or .30-06. My opinion is that any ”marginal” increase in practical killing power starts with a .338wm and really a .338RUM and “up”..after all, if I’m going to loosen some teeth with every shot and get stitches from Magnum Eyebrow—-I want a Very Dead Elk lying 500 yards away to show for it !! But i know and agree that a .300wm is a fine round, accurate and plenty of power - and ballistically is superior to ’06 on paper - it fits the Bigger is Better logic and many hunters (especially those under 50) prefer magnums for Elk

 

[Puddle]

Shipping paying customers back home in a box is considered bad for business.

I wonder of those airlines that won't carry a hunter's DG trophies back home, will still carry that same hunter in cargo back home,

Hmmm...

 

[Drexel64742]

Very good points about bullet technology/makeup being improved upon over time. I hear about this combined with better powders are making the old ‘06 better than ever.

In the US, a common theme I hear on calibers for the big brown bears on Kodiak is that you need to bring at least a .338 win mag…preferably a .375. However, Phil Shoemaker who has been guiding brown bear hunts for 30+ years is completely fine with and almost encourages his hunters bring an ‘06 with a good bullet. Not the same league as Ele or Cape Buffalo I know.

The magnum craze in the US is/was probably a real thing, especially before the advent of consumer grade laser range finders. God bless as everyone should be shooting what they want to shoot.

Do you think it’s possibly a magnum craze that took hold in Africa by the European colonies? Calibers like the .303 or 7x57 kill the animals dead but the big magnums kill them deader?

 

[HankBuck]

Very good points about bullet technology/makeup being improved upon over time. I hear about this combined with better powders are making the old ‘06 better than ever.

In the US, a common theme I hear on calibers for the big brown bears on Kodiak is that you need to bring at least a .338 win mag…preferably a .375. However, Phil Shoemaker who has been guiding brown bear hunts for 30+ years is completely fine with and almost encourages his hunters bring an ‘06 with a good bullet. Not the same league as Ele or Cape Buffalo I know.

The magnum craze in the US is/was probably a real thing, especially before the advent of consumer grade laser range finders. God bless as everyone should be shooting what they want to shoot.

Do you think it’s possibly a magnum craze that took hold in Africa by the European colonies? Calibers like the .303 or 7x57 kill the animals dead but the big magnums kill them deader?

@Drexel64742 my Alaskan Guide told me before and during my Griz hunt he’s fine with His hunters using an ‘06 and has never had a wounded or sloppy kill issue with ‘06 but has several problems with Hunters shooting magnums that they clearly couldn’t handle and one was a .338wm - he said some insist on a magnum but “can’t hit a barn” with them. The week i was there only one other hunter in camp and he had a .338wm. When we were asked to shoot & check our rifle - he missed entire 12”x12” target at 75 yrds….shooting off a rest! Then the Guide shot it dead center and 1” high. That week one bear was spotted near camp and I was selected to go after it (later was told because they doubted the other hunters shooting ability plus he was grossly out of shape). I know many there are guys can out shoot me and sure some are great with a .338 but others might do better with Less Recoil and better shot placement.

 

[PerH]

A good example from here is when they changed the game status of Seals to be under the Fishery Department definition and not the wild game .

I only read in some fascinating articles . .22-250 and 1-9 twist used for 62 -70 grain bullets ( this article was before .223 and the 77 grain came around )
They also used the .243 , 6,5x55 with 85 or 100 grain hp for head and neck shots and so on as minimum .

The fishery took over and someone with either little experience and knowledge to them set 6,5x55 and 140 grain /2700 joule as minimum. A mistake for sure .
And still today it is also . Bullets not going as they should and not behave as intended with smaller faster ones .

 

[HankBuck]

A good example from here is when they changed the game status of Seals to be under the Fishery Department definition and not the wild game .

I only read in some fascinating articles . .22-250 and 1-9 twist used for 62 -70 grain bullets ( this article was before .223 and the 77 grain came around )
They also used the .243 , 6,5x55 with 85 or 100 grain hp for head and neck shots and so on as minimum .

The fishery took over and someone with either little experience and knowledge to them set 6,5x55 and 140 grain /2700 joule as minimum. A mistake for sure .
And still today it is also . Bullets not going as they should and not behave as intended with smaller faster ones .

@PerH - that’s interesting and I was unaware that Seals were once regulated by Fish & Game, hunted legally and later became part of the Fishery Department. They seem to be a unique mammal because their numbers directly impact Ocean Fish populations, the Commercial Fishing & Lobster industries etc.. I can see why both governing bodies could have jurisdiction. As for the .22-250 they can take deer & Elk so certainly plenty for a Seal head/neck shot.…but many U.S. State will not allow any .22 caliber for deer and believe all states require .24 or larger for Elk?

 

[PerH]

@PerH - that’s interesting and I was unaware that Seals were once regulated by Fish & Game, hunted legally and later became part of the Fishery Department. They seem to be a unique mammal because their numbers directly impact Ocean Fish populations, the Commercial Fishing & Lobster industries etc.. I can see why both governing bodies could have jurisdiction. As for the .22-250 they can take deer & Elk so certainly plenty for a Seal head/neck shot.…but many U.S. State will not allow any .22 caliber for deer and believe all states require .24 or larger for Elk?

I forgot to mention they simply used the big game minimum legal limit of the 140 ,264 levels when the new ones took over . Not only that , but they also reworked quota limits , and not for the better levels of it either as it had been before .

 

[HankBuck]

I forgot to mention they simply used the big game minimum legal limit of the 140 ,264 levels when the new ones took over . Not only that , but they also reworked quota limits , and not for the better levels of it either as it had been before .

@PerH - I started hunting in NJ in early 1970s - ducks on tidal waters. We Never saw a seal and never even heard about anyone seeing a seal in those rivers or the nearby ocean. Then one morning in 1994 - a Seal popped up in my decoy spread….I thought I was “dreaming“. Over the next 10-15 years they became more common and during very cold Winters they gathered occasionally on small ice flows and could be seen regularly late season - sometimes 4-5 of them. Something “changed” and guess their population increased AND they ventured further South during Winter then previous decades. They were certainly protected and were an interesting sight for Duck Hunters to see.