Overpressure Question and stuck cases

[Philip Glass]

Lots of opinions here and some great advice. It is usually reloads and happens in the worst circumstances. There are some leopard and lion charge videos with guns jammed from this from reloads.
Best of luck with your loads.
Philip

 

[NorthernHunter]

Thanks so much for all of the information and stories, I didn't think this question would generate as much information as it did. It's very interesting to hear about stories across the world and how the environments relate to how firearms perform (or don't). Here's a picture of some of my winter hunting adventure success with my 6PPC.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Thanks so much for all of the information and stories, I didn't think this question would generate as much information as it did. It's very interesting to hear about stories across the world and how the environments relate to how firearms perform (or don't). Here's a picture of some of my winter hunting adventure success with my 6PPC.

View attachment 312542

Wow I’d love to take just one of those lynx in my lifetime!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I usually use ADI Australian/hogdon powders and have no problems with temp sensitivity.
Lately I've been using CFE223 and Superformance. These loads are up near max and were developed in minus 1 Celsius. I have used the same loads in 40 degrees Celsius and have experienced no case sticking or over pressure signs. I don't know if these powders are temp sensitive or not may be some one could enlighten me as I have had no problems to date.
Bob

 

[Alistair]

I keep reading about people who end up with cases stuck in rifles when they go on a hunt in high temperatures. Can someone tell me if this has happened to them and if so, what other signs were showing on that case? Were the primers flattened or pierced? I do quite a bit of reloading and run up to the max or overmax loads at times when testing out loads. I cannot recall any time when I've had a case stick in my rifle. I've had primers flatten out and the bolt have a heavy lift, but never a case that sticks. I would think if my cases ended up being stuck from overpressure, then there would be some other serious signs as well. Please excuse me if this has been discussed before, I have not tried searching the forums for the topic.

I see it ocassionally at the range, especially in the F class crowd trying to eke out the last bit of ballistic advantage at 1000 yards.

You must remember, that cases that get stuck represent a significant overpressure event. To exceed the elastic limits of the brass at all (stiff bolt lift), means it's possibly buggered, to do so to a degree that it jams the case in the chamber... it definitely is. If you have any overpressure of that level when the range is in my charge, you will stop shooting. It's not just negligent, it's dangerous both to you and others present.

Other signs on the brass are as you'd expect really. Brass flow into the extractor groove and obvious ejector witness marks. Primers cratered and so flat as to be completely smeared into the case head. Not seen pierced primers, but have seen blown ones once. Case head seperation occassionally.

Beyond simply using too much powder, culprits can be jamming bullets into the lands or (I'm told) not trimming back enough so the end of the brass is jammed into the front of the chamber, effectively providing a masive crimp on the bullet.

@shootist~ I had this issue with PPU brass in my .270, but it occurred at all charges tested, including book min. I suspect that it's a poor quality brass issue causing insufficient spring back on the lower bounds of the brass, which isn't then resized if you're just trying to bump the neck. When you try and use 1x fired with reloads, you can ram it into the chamber with the mechanical advantage of closing the bolt, but then when it fires again and stretches more, it's game over. I scrapped the PPU, moved to Federal 1x fired and tried the exact same loads. No issues all the way up to book max.

 

[bruce moulds]

ppu must be soft, because federal is not noted for hardness.
bruce.

 

[Alistair]

ppu must be soft, because federal is not noted for hardness.
bruce.

I think it's more an elasticity issue than a hardness one really, but yeah, can't say I trust PPU much after that incident

Al.

 

[Ray B]

Sometimes factory cases can be stuck in the chamber if the chamber is machined to minimum dimensions and the action does not have slow stage extraction. I once had an M16 that was when the USMC was pulling all of the M16s out of Westpac and having the chambers/bores chrome lined. Evidently the one that I got had a minimum chamber made further smaller by the chrome lining. In addition the M16 doesn't have the slow first stage extraction as in the M14 or bolt actions. So I could put a loaded magazine in, chamber a round, press the trigger, bang- then nothing. The gas through the tube was insufficient to break the case loose from the chamber. Shooting it amounted to pulling the trigger, setting the butt on the ground, stomping on the carrier handle and making sure that when the bolt went home that the muzzle wasn't pointed at your head. After several hundred rounds were cycled through it and a trip to the armorer it actually became a pretty reliable rifle.

 

[bruce moulds]

I think it's more an elasticity issue than a hardness one really, but yeah, can't say I trust PPU much after that incident

Al.

you are absolutely correct about elasticity.
I should have more correctly described that.
bruce.

 

[bruce moulds]

Sometimes factory cases can be stuck in the chamber if the chamber is machined to minimum dimensions and the action does not have slow stage extraction. I once had an M16 that was when the USMC was pulling all of the M16s out of Westpac and having the chambers/bores chrome lined. Evidently the one that I got had a minimum chamber made further smaller by the chrome lining. In addition the M16 doesn't have the slow first stage extraction as in the M14 or bolt actions. So I could put a loaded magazine in, chamber a round, press the trigger, bang- then nothing. The gas through the tube was insufficient to break the case loose from the chamber. Shooting it amounted to pulling the trigger, setting the butt on the ground, stomping on the carrier handle and making sure that when the bolt went home that the muzzle wasn't pointed at your head. After several hundred rounds were cycled through it and a trip to the armorer it actually became a pretty reliable rifle.

ray
as you describe, primary extraction is of absolute importance here, in conjunction with a decent extractor claw.
even many modern so called improved bolt actions now neglect this.
yes, a step backward from mauser.
bruce.

 

[sestoppelman]

Its called progress......

 

[Ray B]

So if Pro if for, and Con is against
then ProGress means going ForWard
So then, What is ConGress?

 

[Major Khan]

I have had it happen to countless of my clients . The 1 common thing about ALL of the incidents ... Was that they were all using either .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifles , or .460 Weatherby calibre rifles .


India used to be ( And still is ) an extremely warm place . The last thing you wanted was a calibre utilizing a high pressure cartridge ... Especially , when having to contend with dangerous game .

This problem ALWAYS occurred on double barreled rifles , which were chambered in .458 Winchester magnum . Even on high end bespoke pieces ... Made by Holland & Holland of Great Britain , or Auguste Francotte of Belgium . As a matter of fact , I dare say that ... In my 10 year career as a professional shikaree , not even ONCE have I seen a single .458 Winchester magnum calibre double barreled rifle ... Which extracted flawlessly . I have been led to believe ... That it simply cannot be done .

The problem also occurred on short action bolt rifles , such as the Fabrique Nationale Browning Hi Power line of bolt rifles . How ever , to it's credit ... I have never even seen 1 pre 64 Winchester Model 70 ( Chambered in .458 Winchester magnum calibre ) , which gave extraction problems . Even in the hottest deserts of Rajasthan .

 

[RayAtkinson]

A couple of things come to mind on this thread, one is Ive used a lot of PPU brass without any problems, its one of the oldest brass production companies in the world and I trust it. The brass I had the most trouble was Norma, it was soft..WW is great brass but they sure have gotten sloppy with bent necks, split necks in bagged brass, Rem also, but these are problems I can live with as they are fixable for the most part..

But too much powder can cause a lot of problems to the reloader for sure, and most problems have to do with the chamber of a gun, therefore each gun is an inity unto itself..max loads can vary as much a 4 or 5 grs in some cases, velocity can vary as much as 150 FPS and 100 FPS is fairly common...tight barrels and tight or short chambers, can cause all manner of problems, but a reloader should be schooled enough to recognized any problem that crops up..Many are not, it just takes time thru a process of experience..

I have tested my rifles on the hood of my pickup on a ranch I had in the Big Bend country of Texas near Presidio, temps on a 120 degree day with max loads, couldn't create a problem? Sometime later on another hot day I got max reading and a mildly sticky bolt..I used H414, RL 22, 17 and 19, CFE223., trying to stir up some pressure, All in all it was such that I dimissed the alleged problem and decided it just depended on whatever and heat got the blame..Right or wrong, I wouldn't swear to it but was satisfied it was a much overblown problem..Same with the severe cold in Idaho, weather failure is man caused one way or another and there are a number of ways to cause all these problems..

 

[Rick Cox]

Recently I've had some issues loading for a 35 Whelen with case ruptures and in some cases splitting and getting stuck in the chamber. Most of then just fell out but one needed a bore snake run through to pull it out. All cases were Remington and when I checked my brass most of that lot showed varying degrees of either rupture or thinking about it. I think these were the oldest ones I have for that gun. Upon examination you could see a 'necking' down of the body of the case and if you 'felt' inside the case with a short piece of bent wire, you could feel it.
I am going to be paying more attention to my cases from now on, I'll tell you that.

 

[Rick Cox]

Thanks so much for all of the information and stories, I didn't think this question would generate as much information as it did. It's very interesting to hear about stories across the world and how the environments relate to how firearms perform (or don't). Here's a picture of some of my winter hunting adventure success with my 6PPC.

View attachment 312542

That is some haul!. That will get your air fare to Namibia next time.

 

[Nhoro]

All powders will show variation in pressure with temperature-that is just their chemistry. I will give you two examples in my 458 Lott according to reloading programs because I cannot measure chamber pressure. Current daytime temperature are below 18 deg C or 64 F. Daytime temps in Chiredzi or Zambezi valley can reach 45+ deg C or 110 F. This sort of temperature range will push my pressures up by 120 bar/50 fps for Vihtavuori N550 and about 240 bar for Somchem S321 in my (mild) handloads. Not enough to explode a gun or stick a case. Now I can get the same or higher velocities with a number of powders and higher pressures and more temperature sensitivity. Reliability means compromising on performance.

Once you get close to maximum with some powders, the pressure can climb very rapidly-again just the chemistry of the burn.This is either from powder compression or the shape of the burn/pressure curve of that powder. So what I have learned from very experienced reloaders is that you should use a more temperature stable powder, don't compress your load much and don't operate near the extreme limits of your powder. Some powders are definitely better in certain cases. Some cases are better than others for resisting pressure(but I dont think that you should be close to the limits so this shouldn't be as bad as stuck or not stuck)

 

[RayAtkinson]

99% of the time if you get stuck cases, something is causing excess pressure, old worn out brass, brass that's been oversized and resized will ruin brass in a hurry, btw never use, used brass for a hunt, especially for DG...All those stuck cases are man caused and that's for sure...most from a lack of reloading knowledge and we've all been there at one time..The first time you get a stuck case its time to stop! drop your powder charge two grs. and see what happens is the first step and the most common...

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

99% of the time if you get stuck cases, something is causing excess pressure, old worn out brass, brass that's been oversized and resized will ruin brass in a hurry, btw never use, used brass for a hunt, especially for DG...All those stuck cases are man caused and that's for sure...most from a lack of reloading knowledge and we've all been there at one time..The first time you get a stuck case its time to stop! drop your powder charge two grs. and see what happens is the first step and the most common...

@RayAtkinson
Came across a strange one the other day. Fired a case i n my N04 SMLE to Fire form it but wouldn't extract. Fell out with the aid of a cleaning rod.
Problem turned out to be the time 10 tho undersized and wouldn't give the extractor enough of a bite.
Bob

 

[RayAtkinson]

For what its worth, when you get a head separation, the best way to remove the remainder of the case is use and oversize bronze brush, stuff it in and the bristles bend back towards the action inside the case, then pull it out..works every time so far..Lot easier than other methods..Ive over the years had more head separation in Savage 99s and Federal brass..Solved the problem by using loads 2 grs. under book max..Unusual for me but it solved the problem and the deer and a few elk never knew the difference, nor did I..