Opinions on the 2300-2400fps velocity range in big game rifles

[mickb]

Hi gents I've always been intrigued by the classic bolt action safari guns like the 505 Gibbs, 425wr, 416 Rigby and 500 Jeff. I always wondered if the extra couple hundred fps provided any advantages over double rifle speeds.

Were the inventors of these bolt guns tapping into more useful range, softpoint expansion, use on lighter game as well etc or were they just loading faster as a marketing angle?

Particularly in the case of the big guns, the gibbs and Jeffery , would you say there was any point in their velocity ot had they stayed with 2150fps like a nitro express double the guns would have done the same job? This isn't an attack on either type btw, huge fans of them and interested to hear opinions particularly from anyone who uses them

 

[PCC600]

Hi gents I've always been intrigued by the classic bolt action safari guns like the 505 Gibbs, 425wr, 416 Rigby and 500 Jeff. I always wondered if the extra couple hundred fps provided any advantages over double rifle speeds.

Were the inventors of these bolt guns tapping into more useful range, softpoint expansion, use on lighter game as well etc or were they just loading faster as a marketing angle?

Particularly in the case of the big guns, the gibbs and Jeffery , would you say there was any point in their velocity ot had they stayed with 2150fps like a nitro express double the guns would have done the same job? This isn't an attack on either type btw, huge fans of them and interested to hear opinions particularly from anyone who uses the

 

[PCC600]

I think Gibbs and Jeffery fell for the high velocity big energy story when they originally introduced their 505 and 500 magazine rifles shooting at 2300 - 2400 fps. Modern loads from Norma are replicating 500 NE performance that is heavier (600 grain), higher SD bullets fired at 2150fps. Delivering circa 5800 foot pounds of energy . Very very effective .

 

[Excessexpress]

So long as bullet construction is appropriate and it has enough energy for the job, I don’t think it’s a big deal either way.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

Interesting question for sure. I believe a 500 NE delivering a 570 grain bullet at 2150 FPS is incredibly effective and when regulated properly is plenty of rifle to take any animal on the planet.
The 505 Gibbs and 500 Jeff are in a different league of stopping rifles with more shots available typically 3 + 1. Originally my Gibbs was shooting a 570 grain bullet ar 2200FPS but I have kept tweaking it to now is shooting 600 grains at 2300 FPS and 570 Grains at 2350 FPS. All with the loads printing clover leaf groups at 100 yards.
The ability to “load up” these calibers is the main difference while not messing with the rifles regulation concerns. I will defer to the other members for their loads on the 500 Jeff.

HH

 

[grand veneur]

I believe that the pressure in the cartridges played the main role and that the muzzle velocity of the various cartridges resulted from that. I don't think there is any science behind it all. Depending on the bullet, what is particularly important is the impact velocity, which, depending on the shooting distances, was not always achieved with the old cartridges.

The British in particular have always been worried about overpressure, especially in tropical areas. Many loads were reduced over time and so-called tropical loads were also developed.

The commercial side certainly played a role and with the bolt action rifles one could work in different pressure ranges than with a break-down rifle. This made it possible to achieve higher muzzle velocity, which were good for advertising with energy, back then hunters believed in the lethality of that, but also had above all, thank a higher impact velocity, a positive effect on the depth penetration of the bullets.

 

[Frederik]

With premium expanding bullets you might also loose penetration with higher speed as the bullet will mushroom quicker and then decelarate faster. But then again depening on the game you hunt especially the bigger thicker game is it an issue? Unless its a backup shot, shot from an odd angle?

 

[grand veneur]

The fear of overpressure continued to slow gunmakers down. Bolt actions like that from Mauser would have allowed high-performance cartridges to be developed earlier, but all wanted to stay on the very safe side with the cartridges. Winchester took in the late fifties the leap with the cartridge 458 Winchester Magnum, without achieving more performance, but Weatherby did it with the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum. What velocity is in practice needed has nothing to do with what a company offers and advertises with.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

In Zimbabwe, 1981... we chronographed two boxes of Kynoch round nosed steel jacketed FMJ factory loads for the .416 Rigby. These were from the last batch of .416 Rigby ammunition which Kynoch had manufactured in 1962.

All 10 cartridges chronographed 2150-2160 FPS. No where near the advertised 2300 FPS listed on the box. But it was clearly dropping elephants left & right. So who were we to complain ?

I can personally attest to the fact that higher velocity is a very good thing when hunting lions, leopards & Royal Bengal tigers. Their highly developed central nervous system is the reason for this.

Let's use a lion, for instance. Assuming that all other factors are equal (which admittedly, they seldom in the field)... a .500 Jeffery launching a 570Gr soft point at 2350 FPS will have better terminal effect for body shots on a lion than a .500 Nitro Express launching the same 570Gr soft points at 2150 FPS.

Were I to hunt a lion with a double rifle, my preferred caliber for this reason... would be the .500/416 Nitro Express. 400Gr bullets at 2330 FPS.

 

[uplander01]

I've only been on a hand full of safaris using various calibers from 375 to 500J, so I'm not speaking with as much experience as many on here. But it seems to me that once you get to the 50's the whole Idea was perhaps to drive solids of heavy weight further and faster, through say an elephant or buffalo skull from many angles and at the very least knock it unconscious? I had norma factory 570gr -500 J load go end to end on a large buffalo, that would have zipped right through a lesser beast, and a solid of the same weight would have more than likely passed right through the buffalo. Big bores with heavy bullets have a more unique application based on design, that being said I used the same 500 J load on many plains game animals on that safari, needless to say they didn't know the difference, and they were all dead quickly.

 

[Neil Molendyk]

Premium bullet manufacturers have designed their bullets for certain velocities in certain calibre. I have found that it is in your best interest to adhere to their recommendations and you will get their expected performance. Faster is not better, neither is slower if the bullet fragments or fails to expand. Know your target, know your expected shooting distance, understand the limitations of the shooting conditions you are in.

 

[rookhawk]

Hi gents I've always been intrigued by the classic bolt action safari guns like the 505 Gibbs, 425wr, 416 Rigby and 500 Jeff. I always wondered if the extra couple hundred fps provided any advantages over double rifle speeds.

Were the inventors of these bolt guns tapping into more useful range, softpoint expansion, use on lighter game as well etc or were they just loading faster as a marketing angle?

Particularly in the case of the big guns, the gibbs and Jeffery , would you say there was any point in their velocity ot had they stayed with 2150fps like a nitro express double the guns would have done the same job? This isn't an attack on either type btw, huge fans of them and interested to hear opinions particularly from anyone who uses them

The extra velocity was really for a professional's "insurance". 2150fps at the muzzle, 1900fps upon impact, is all a client needs. But during a charge, if the PH puts a marginal shot on an animal with that extra speed, they may stun the animal or turn it.

If I had my druthers, and I enjoyed recoil, I'd use a heavier bullet at lower speed. You still get the same energy, but you are more likely to transfer that energy into the target at lower velocity rather than have it pass out the other side with its energy intact.

 

[dogcat1]

I cannot answer your question other than to say - about anything in a well made and well placed bullet over 2100 fps will do the job.
I have used numerous camp rifles that came with a mixed up batch of ammo. They only thing I was sure of was that the ammo fed properly. I had softs, solids and an odd mix I could not identify. I quizzed the PH's and they said they use what they have and what they can find. In the end, I took a nice lion, buff and many other animals. All shots were less than 100 yards, so the velocity was not huge as long as I hit the "spot".
Just a subjective view - heavier and slower bullets seem to work very well. But, if given the choice, I would shoot fast and heavy well made bullets...

 

[colorado]

I don't think anyone thinks a 500 NE with a 570g bullet at 2150 fps isn't a proper stopping rifle. I load my 500 Jeffery with the same bullet to 2300 fps only to keep my load density up. I'm sure at 2150 fps it would do any job asked of it.

 

[grand veneur]

The extra velocity was really for a professional's "insurance". 2150fps at the muzzle, 1900fps upon impact, is all a client needs. But during a charge, if the PH puts a marginal shot on an animal with that extra speed, they may stun the animal or turn it.

If I had my druthers, and I enjoyed recoil, I'd use a heavier bullet at lower speed. You still get the same energy, but you are more likely to transfer that energy into the target at lower velocity rather than have it pass out the other side with its energy intact.

What kills is the bullet. The energy is a theoretical value.

A bullet that passes through a body causes tissue damage during its passage and leaves behind temporary and permanent cavities. One speaks of the so-called cavitation effect. This damage is increased by a bullet that becomes unstable and that can cause additional damage at distance due to its erratic and unpredictable way in the body. Such a slower unstable bullet that does not exit can have a better effect than a stable bullet that passes straight through a body and only causes relative limited damage during its passage. The better effect of such slow bullets that become very quickly unstable is for this reason only a illusion. It is proven in all cases that the faster a bullet penetrates, the greater the damage will be.

 

[Daniel Cary]

Good question. My proverbial thought. was just a more affordable, or magazine solution that ended up with more displacement?

 

[baxterb]

In Zimbabwe, 1981... we chronographed two boxes of Kynoch round nosed steel jacketed FMJ factory loads for the .416 Rigby. These were from the last batch of .416 Rigby ammunition which Kynoch had manufactured in 1962.

All 10 cartridges chronographed 2150-2160 FPS. No where near the advertised 2300 FPS listed on the box. But it was clearly dropping elephants left & right. So who were we to complain ?

I can personally attest to the fact that higher velocity is a very good thing when hunting lions, leopards & Royal Bengal tigers. Their highly developed central nervous system is the reason for this.

Let's use a lion, for instance. Assuming that all other factors are equal (which admittedly, they seldom in the field)... a .500 Jeffery launching a 570Gr soft point at 2350 FPS will have better terminal effect for body shots on a lion than a .500 Nitro Express launching the same 570Gr soft points at 2150 FPS.

Were I to hunt a lion with a double rifle, my preferred caliber for this reason... would be the .500/416 Nitro Express. 400Gr bullets at 2330 FPS.

I was going to mention this..over the years I’ve heard of many people doing this same thing with similar results. The published FPS of a lot of the old stuff was ambitious at best.

 

[PCC600]

Worth looking at the barrel lengths when the original velocities of classic cartridges were measured . Often barrels on bolt action rifles were 26 and 28 inches long . The original 416 Rigby, 505 Gibbs and 500 Jeffery were all on 26 inch barrels . 425 WR needed 28 inches to get the reported performance . But I do agree that the original velocities reported were overstated. However they still performed very well .