Opinions On SxS Shotgun Brands

[robertq]

Congrats...... use it well....

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

I love reading the stuff from Chuck Hawks and Randy Wakeman.....good, practical knowledge to have for sure.....

I will definitely keep everyone up-to-date as to what I decide on.....

Two other good websites are:

Realguns.com: http://www.realguns.com/

Gunblast.com: http://www.gunblast.com/

 

[sandman0921]

Two other good websites are:

Realguns.com: http://www.realguns.com/

Gunblast.com: http://www.gunblast.com/

Yes I love those websites as well. I first found Realguns when I was working up loads for a 257 Weatherby Magnum. There was a great 4 part (I think) series on there with a lot of good reloading data.......

 

[Red Leg]

You apparently did very well my friend. I am indeed jealous!!! Maybe a trip to Eibar next year to have one made to your specs!!! Red Leg and I may even need to go to keep you out of trouble!

Now there's a thought!

And please don't ever, ever put a three- inch shell in that lovely lithe thing. It would be bad for both of you.

 

[sandman0921]

Might be a good idea......I do have a tendency of getting in trouble when it coms to guns and buying another one. I swear, I can go into a gun store with the sole purpose of "just looking", and come out with something I really .....cough.....cough......"needed".........better than anyone......Some people have addictions to women, some to gambling, some to booze............me it's to wood and blued steel......oh well

In all reality, one day I really would love to go over to Eibar and see those factories though. I could spend a whole week watching true craftsmen ply their trade and come up with a beautiful and functional work of art.....

One of my favorite videos on YouTube, and one I've watched many times is a video demonstrating some of the steps in making a Holland & Holland best gun (both shotguns and rifles).

If you've never had the pleasure.......Brings chills to my spine....

Ah....maybe one day.....

 

[sierraone]

Might be a good idea......I do have a tendency of getting in trouble when it coms to guns and buying another one. I swear, I can go into a gun store with the sole purpose of "just looking", and come out with something I really .....cough.....cough......"needed".........better than anyone......Some people have addictions to women, some to gambling, some to booze............me it's to wood and blued steel......oh well

In all reality, one day I really would love to go over to Eibar and see those factories though. I could spend a whole week watching true craftsmen ply their trade and come up with a beautiful and functional work of art.....

One of my favorite videos on YouTube, and one I've watched many times is a video demonstrating some of the steps in making a Holland & Holland best gun (both shotguns and rifles).

If you've never had the pleasure.......Brings chills to my spine....

Ah....maybe one day.....

Yes, my son and I have both watched the H&H video. I believe Rigby has one also, that is much shorter. I wouldn't be surprised if most if not all of the bespoke gun and rifle makers have videos on line. Westley Richards is the brand that comes to mind that should have one if they don't already. It's a miracle that we still have people like this in a world that is so f.....up in so many ways.
Yes, a "window shopping" trip to London, Birmingham and Eibar would be a trip that could only be described to a very few people. Talking about an hours long discussion!!!

 

[Red Leg]

I've done London - the showrooms anyway - several times. Always treated with great courtesy and patience, and particularly so at Purdey and William Evans.

Accompanied a friend and his spouse to Evans one day where they were looking at used 20 bores for the wife. She really liked a little Westley Richards which had been built between the wars. We told the them we would think about it over lunch and would be back in a couple of hours. They assured us it would be waiting on her when we returned. Neither was absolutely positive as we walked back in, but there was the gun on the long table laying across a dozen roses. She shoots it wonderfully to this day.

 

[sierraone]

I've done London - the showrooms anyway - several times. Always treated with great courtesy and patience, and particularly so at Purdey and William Evans.

Accompanied a friend and his spouse to Evans one day where they were looking at used 20 bores for the wife. She really liked a little Westley Richards which had been built between the wars. We told the them we would think about it over lunch and would be back in a couple of hours. They assured us it would be waiting on her when we returned. Neither was absolutely positive as we walked back in, but there was the gun on the long table laying across a dozen roses. She shoots it wonderfully to this day.

No surprise at all her interest was peaked with a W. R. But the idea of placing the gun on a dozen roses, now that was a deal maker, particularly for a woman! I doubt you could find that that kind of class in the U.S/! H & H in New York and Dallas...Are you paying attention???

 

[Finn fan]

I know nothing about hunting in Africa but have been blessed with the deep knowledge on the subject from this forum. I hope the $ work out some day.

However I do have a great deal of experience with side by sides and perhaps can offer back a nugget of knowledge on shotguns for the mountain of information I received on Africa.

I have used doubles for bird hunting and clays since the 1980’s. My opinions are based on these experiences and only cover what I have owned or used. Here goes:

American doubles- Almost all were made before WW II and can have a tendency to start to break down. Everything can be repaired but a restocking job starts at $1000. Also many have short chambers or chambers that were made for the expansion of roll crimped shells not fold crimps. Firing the longer shells raises pressure and will wear the hinge quickly.

Brand by Brand:

Parker are horribly overpriced and often times have too much drop in the stock. I have shouldered and shot a few but never owned one.

AH Foxes are wonderful guns but true Foxes have not been made since the 1930’s. Fox sterlingworths (their bottom grade gun) can be best buys. However most have seen hard use. I feel they are about the best American gun. I have owned two and the stocks cracked out on both. Not due to poor quality but age and use.

LC Smiths can be bargains because they are often viewed as the ugly sister of American guns. I have owned two. A badly restored and flawed Ideal grade that bought before I had enough knowledge and a wonderful Field Featherweight grade in 16 gauge. I still hunt with the 16. Almost all LC Smiths because of the design of the side plate will crack out. This can be repaired but is not normally a problem for a long time.

I have owned and hunted with a number of Savage 311’s, Stevens, Fox model B’s and the like. These tend to be clubby but dependable. I would not pay over $300 dollars for any of them. They will get the job done but after you have handled a better gun they are hard to go back.


Spanish Doubles

These run from wonderful to crap. Generally the newer ones are pretty good.

Brand by Brand

Aya- In the 1990’s I did my research. Scrimped and saved and was fitted for and ordered an AYA#2. I well respected gun. I looked at all Spanish makers. Read researched and read and researched. Worst purchase of my life. The gun looks awesome but the firing pins did not hit deep enough to always fire the shells. It was under warranty, so as directed by the importer I sent it to Jack Rowe, the AYA factory gunsmith in America. He sent it back with a letter that said the gun was within specs and I should fire European ammo. On top of it while his costs were covered, shipping and insurance were not. That was $300.I tried European ammo and the same thing happened. Spoke to Jack Rowe and again and he again said it was within specs! Time goes by and run into Hugh Loomis who had become the new AYA gunsmith in America. He is a good fellow and explained the nature of the problem well. However AYA would not ship him the parts he needed to make the repairs and it was not under warranty. He installed longer firing pins and the gun works but due to the length of the pins you need to power of Thor to open the gun. (And I might add I played college football as a defensive tackle)

Since the female analogy has been tossed out I will add to it. My AYA #2 is like being married to super model. Incredibly beautiful, turns heads everywhere we go but doesn’t cook, clean or put out and is normally difficult!

I would never buy another but know others who would. Maybe I got a lemon.

American Arms Derby- Briefly in the late 1980’s the Spanish nationalized their gun business. I bought a 12 gauge sidelock at that time on a yearend deal for $500. It is a 3 inch gun. I have carried this gun every season since and fired 1000’s of rounds of all manner of shells including 3 inch steel shot. This is my waterfowl gun. This was the best purchase of my life. This gun looks very much like the AYA#2 with a bit less fit, finish and gracefulness.

The female analogy is this gun is the slightly less pretty sister of the super model. However she is charming to be around makes an awesome meal and never turns you down in the sack.

Ugartechea- Also in the early 1990’s I bought 16gauge called the Bill Hanus birdgun. Mr. Hanus has since passed away but at the time had Ugartechea make guns to his specs. I think the current Grade 1 boxlock Ugartechea is pretty comparable. It is strikingly beautiful and well-made gun. This gun is a delight to own, weighs about 6 pounds and always throws shot where I want it. I carry this for upland game. This was the 2nd best purchase of my life. 1000’s of trouble free rounds.

Last female analogy is this gun may be like being married Penelope Cruz. Enough said

Other guns that I can recommend because I have handled and shot them but not owned the, is a SKB 100 and a Beretta G3. Not been made for a while but great guns id you find them.

I book I can recommend is Good Guns Again by Steve Bodio. Easy read with great insight.

Happy to entertain questions.

 

[sierraone]

This is a great post. I am always looking to increase my knowledge from experienced people. I am aware of the GR3, (which is a Sauer and Beretta cooperation deal in some manner. I have seen a couple of them for sale in Tulsa. I believe it is the sxs equivalent of the S56E which I own one in 20 ga and have owned one in 12 ga. I don't know anything about the G3 though. Can you send me a link about the gun, and even one for sale with good photos? Thanks.

 

[Finn fan]

https://www.gunsamerica.com/945922937/GR3-SxS-12-GA-Min.htm

 

[Finn fan]

Another
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=549811356

 

[sierraone]

Hi Again Finn, These are both GR3s which I am familiar. Maybe I misunderstood that you mentioned a G3. The one shown on Guns America was as new, but was sold. I could easily have paid $2000 for it in the right circumstances. Thanks for the links and keep up the sxs posts so I will continue to get smarter on the subject!!!

 

[Finn fan]

Yes my bad I meant GR 3 sorry.

 

[sierraone]

That's OK. Even from a mistake, I have learned that there are no Beretta G3s, at least that I know of!!!

 

[Sika98k]

I have been reading this thread with interests. A lot of good information to be gleaned from it.
Single triggers v double trigger guns, if your single trigger gives trouble on a good day out you are truly bunched .
European shotguns tend to come out of the factory tightly choked. You can take choke out but you can't put it in. Unless have it retro-fitted for interchangeable chokes.
A friend of mine with whom I shoot virtually every weekend of the bird season owns an AYA No2. Sad to say it has had its fair share of trips to the gunsmith. Currently it is off the face and being rejointed. Firing pins have broken,ejector problems. Ho hum.
He would tend to shoot slightly heavier loads than I. Generally he shoots 32grm loads on pheasant and 34grm loads on duck. I go a load lighter with my 12 bore.
I shot my fathers Merkel 16 bore for a while. Never really got on with it.
I settled on a Bonehill 16 bore as my " go to gun" for bird shooting in the winter. 6lbs,2oz. It's sweet !

 

[sierraone]

Thanks for your thoughts Silka. I wasn't aware of Bonehill guns. Ran a quick check on a Brit site and found a couple, much less than a thousand pounds, and you seem to be quite pleased with yours! Good to know!

 

[Sika98k]

Thanks for your thoughts Silka. I wasn't aware of Bonehill guns. Ran a quick check on a Brit site and found a couple, much less than a thousand pounds, and you seem to be quite pleased with yours! Good to know!

There are LOTS of old English shotguns in all shapes and sizes. Things to put you off buying Stateside is the length of the chambers. Older Guns,in the majority tend to have 2 1/2" chambers. Not there more common 2 3/4 chamber.

There are lots of names also. A lot of guns were purchased "in the white" and finished by provincial gunmakers. Some of them were finished to a high standard.
Bonmams,Holts and Gavin Gardiner are good online auction houses.

 

[Finn fan]

Short chambers are not the end of the world. You can't buy them at Walmart but these folks put out wonderful shells that I have used and can vouch for.
http://www.rstshells.com.

Also have used their spreader loads in my tight choked older guns. They work well.

 

[Red Leg]

2.5 inch shells are no longer an issue in this country - to include 1 1/4 ounce loads for pheasant and pigeon. I have them delivered by the flat to my front door by UPS. RST's are excellent loads. The older guns should not be shot with steel unless they are very open choke. And frankly, I won't run steel through any of my old English or continental guns. It is safe to use light (mid-range 1 ounce) 2 3/4 inch loads in most 2.5 inch guns. They have been extensively tested in quality 2.5 inch field guns with no problems, and reported on extensively in places like Double Gun Journal (a great periodical for those of you interested in these old treasures.) However, I personally use 2.5 inch shells.

Be aware that virtually all English field guns are proofed to handle up to 1 1/8 ounce loads; Loads which are very decisive against any pheasant or dove that ever flew - in spite of what our pappy's may of told us on this side of the pond. Special built wildfowl and pigeon (competitive) guns were also made and were proofed for 1 1/4 ounce loads and were equipped with everything from 2.5 to 3 inch chambers. They will run about a pound heavier than a classic field gun. The barrel flats will tell you almost everything.

Probably two-thirds to three-quarters of English guns were made in Birmingham, though as noted above, they were assembled and finished across the country. A very few makers (among them Holland and Purdey) built bespoke guns in London. Other great makers were working in Ireland and Scotland. My MacNaughton round action is one of the real treasures in my gunsafe. And of course, the continent as well produced some of the finest guns ever made. My two "go to" twelve bores for driven and tower released pheasants are a Belgian made sidelock sold by Galand in Paris ,and a London made and proofed Stephen Grant side lever, sidelock. Both gun were built before WWI and are as tight and dependable as the day they were finish filed. For box birds, I shoot special built pigeon guns. One is a William Cashmore (Birmingham) gun and another an unmarked but fabulously engraved German guild gun. The British gun was built before WWI and the German gun was built in 1932. Both handle a regular diet of 1 1/4 ounce pigeon loads with no issues at all. For quail I often use a Charlin 20 or Darne 28. Then there are drillings and a William Evans Paradox ..........

I have owned a number of American period guns, but currently only have a Specialty grade LC Smith and a Model 21. I am not a Parker fan. They are fine guns, but they have been so caught up in the collector craze, that I refuse to pay that premium over what are basic boxlock guns with typically lousy stock demensions (at least for me).

If you have never purchased an older English gun, I would strongly urge you to use a broker or colleague who really understands them before writing that check. At least half the guns in this country have had the attentions of an untrained shade tree gunsmith. Chambers have been reamed, hand laped chokes bored, and far too many had an extensive diet of out of proof loads. But find the right one, and it is like exchanging a mace for a rapier.