Open Sighted 45-70 in Africa

[Amon458]

People have also killed elephants with a 500 s&w out of a revolver so again I believe the 45-70 will work just because you wouldnt do it doesnt mean its bad or else everyone would be hateing on bow hunting as well as the 45-70. If someone wants to take an elephant cowboy style because thats what they prefer then good for them and it shouldnt be discouraged.

 

[matt85]

Less we forget karimojo bell killed elephants very effectively with a hellava lot less A 45-70 in a good lever gun with high quality ammo would gett'er done.

your speaking of the 275 Rigby using a 175gr FMJ at around 2400fps. this load will easily out penetrate any thing a 45-70 could throw.

A buffalo could probably be taken with a well placed frozen herring

this quote just made my night! thank you Velo Dog i really needed a good laugh. your point is also valid, just about anything will kill a buffalo or any animal for that matter if you have enough skill/luck. it doesn't mean its a good idea to use weapons that are just barely up to the task.

I am not convinced that a 300 .375 cal bullet at 2500fps is that much better killer of anything than a 400gr .458 cal bullet at near 2000fps

its a matter of sectional density. the 400gr .458" bullet at 2000fps will not penetrate as well as the 300gr .375" bullet at 2500fps. on a perfect broad side shot they will both probably work fine. but any other type of shot and the 300gr 375" bullet moving at 2500fps will easily outperform the 400gr .458" at 2000fps.

-matt

 

[Velo Dog]

Velo Dog I don't doubt this in the least and you definitly know more about it than I do but.... I also believe that he did in fact kill many elephants with a 7x57. Maybe not hundreds but several. My only point is that it can be done. I definitely wouldn't go trekking after jumbo with a 7x57 but I think it's reasonible to believe that a 45-70 would effectively kill an elephant in the right circumstances.

I read somewhere that a table spoon of water in the lungs is generally enough to drown most typical adult humans.

 

[gizmo]

I read somewhere that a table spoon of water in the lungs is generally enough to drown most typical adult humans.

lol right. I don't know that I would go elephant hunting with a spoon and a cup of water though.

 

[matt85]

I still have a mental image of a frozen herring being loaded into a large bore muzzle loader... that buffalo will never see it coming!

note: ive got me a new signature!

-matt

 

[Grumulkin]

It doesn't take a lot of fluid in the lungs to drown a human but more than a table spoon. That much is routinely use by respiratory therapists to clear out mucus, induce sputum, etc.

 

[Kano]

I've seen buffalo taken with bullets going from .300 to .500, even with a handgun in .358 JDJ (one shot kill, BTW)

Of those that ended up in a clusterfuck, none elicited the comment "If it had been a better caliber that wouldn't have happened...". To the contrary, every single one of them was down to a simple thing: poor shot.

A poor shot can be due to the hunter being a poor shot, or getting buck fever, or to the PH offering too long a shot, or making the client uncomfortable, or miscommunication, or any other factor or combination of factors.

Someone earlier asked "Define a proper buffalo rifle."

I think that it would be every bit as relevant to define a proper buffalo hunter...

The Buffalo Caliber becomes really important only if that first shot is bad, for any reason.

 

[Velo Dog]

It doesn't take a lot of fluid in the lungs to drown a human but more than a table spoon. That much is routinely use by respiratory therapists to clear out mucus, induce sputum, etc.

Regardless of the misinformation I had read (or perhaps my demented memory converted "a cup" to "a table spoon" these 30 or 40 years later) when I think about how painful it is to inhale only a drop of water "down the wrong pipe", I pray that I never need to visit a Respiratory Therapist.

 

[Velo Dog]

I'm not sure why a .458 cal, 400gr bullet of decent BC moving at over 2000fps, that produces over 4000ft/lbs of energy is deemed inadequate or problematic on buffalo. Not like it hasnt been done before. Is it the best choice? No. Is it adequate? Of course. There seems to be an ingrained prejudice towards the .45-70, perhaps due to those who try to attribute to it qualities it truly lacks. However given the ballistics above there is no reason it should be considered inadequate at typical buffalo ranges.

Good Morning Sestoppelman,

I am inclined as usual to agree with you on this -well, sort of / in general.
And, I will always especially agree, with the well placed shot concept.
Perhaps the 300 gr .375 might penetrate better for follow-ups on already hit buffalo?
But, I do not know that for sure, it certainly does provide much higher sectional density and higher velocity than a .400 gr .45 caliber bullet does from the .45-70.
I have only shot some non-dangerous animals with the .375 and only one with the .45-70 but, both calibers proved quite impressive on them.

In regards to that sort of thing, including the 9.3x62 for buffalo, none of the above are my paying client's idea of what I will hunt them with anyway, including the .375 H&H (which I am really quite fond of for other purposes).

That said, I have only shot one buffalo so, I am in no position to claim the .45-70 and 400 gr load you speak of would not be adequate.
Fact is, it would likely be adequate for blue whale under specific circumstances but again, "What is the point"?
I do expect it would be, at least for many situations, animal's position at the moment of that first shot and such.

However, there is the chamber pressure thing that keeps me from taking any .45-70 "hot loads" to Africa, or in any caliber, to anywhere, even to the rifle range here where it usually is not even especially warm weather.
I have no use for hot loads, not for any reason.
Also, I am under the impression that the .45-70 may not even be legal for heavy/dangerous game in all countries where hunting DG is common, hot loads or otherwise.

Personally, I would not want to have only a .45-70 if suddenly rushed by a gut shot buffalo that some poacher had left behind, especially with a hot load that Murphy's Law might decide to stick in my chamber (lever guns do not possess much stubborn case removing capability, neither do the Ruger No1 or Farquarson single shots).

The reloading books all warn "Approach Maximum Loads With Caution" in bold letters.
My personal policy these days is to not approach them at all.
For my hard earned pay, if I wished to shoot 400 gr bullets around 2000 fps, I'd prefer a .404 Jeffery or the .416 Rigby.
These cartridges loaded to around 2150 to 2200 fps are at the lower end of their acceptable pressure standards and yet are accepted as adequate penetrators,, even on large grumpy bull elephant.
That concept and also considering what I can only imagine what it feels like to fire a Marlin lever action with 400 gr bullets at 2000 fps, about 20 to 40 shots each weekend, in training, is enough reason for me to not be especially interested in the .45-70 for buffalo.

Well anyway, at the end of the day I will never guess that a buffalo could not be clobbered with the .45-70 because, no doubt they have been well clobbered with home made smooth bore muzzle loaders, firing short pieces of re-bar, for Pete's sake.

But regarding the use of a .45-70 on African buffalo, for my client money's worth, my question remains "What is the point"?

Best Regards,
Velo Dog.

 

[matt85]

i absolutely love my Savage MKII 22LR and ill bet any man that i could kill a buffalo with a properly placed shot at close range. heck, with a suppressor on it i could probably shoot the animal a few times before any thing else noticed.

does this make my 22LR a suitable rifle for cape buffalo?

-matt

 

[sestoppelman]

Much is made of penetration, a necessity of course. Its also with buffalo at least, which is how this whole thing started if I recall, about bone smashing power. Anyone here think a premium 400gr, .458 bullet at 2000fps or perhaps a little more, wont break the shoulder or neck or back of a buffalo? Or that it wont penetrate a couple feet of buffalo body cavity? I didn't think so. It would not be my choice either, as always there are better choices, but that does not take away the abilities of one cartridge. One can also argue that the .30-06 is a better deer killer than the .30-30 but that doesn't make the .30-30 any less of a deer killer. Like most on here I have am not a PH or a mass slayer of beast here or abroad. I have taken a grand total of two buffalo, both with the .375 Hollands. One took three shots, two from me (one too high and one frontal chest) and one from the PH (also frontal chest), my first buff in Tanzania. My second buff fell to one really good shot (lucky!) from nearly 150 yds on a moving buff, in the neck-high shoulder and dropped like he was hit by lightning. All of which proves nothing, other than shot placement is paramount. I have no doubt given the same bullet placement on both buff, that the .45-70 as described above would have ended the same way, two dead buffalo.

 

[matt85]

One can also argue that the .30-06 is a better deer killer than the .30-30 but that doesn't make the .30-30 any less of a deer killer.

this is true, I can relate to this statement because im well know for using small calibers on rather large animals. stateside I use a 6.5x55 to hunt every thing.

However if I shoot an elk and it doesn't go down quickly its unlikely any one is going to get hurt. if I shoot a buffalo and we need to chase it into thick bush there is a good chance someone could get seriously hurt or killed. when peoples lives are on the line I personally use the biggest possible cartridge I can accurately shoot.

-matt

 

[CAustin]

Sestoppelman you have it exactly right. Yes we could all take a 750 Nitro Express, biggest gun available, into the field to hunt a Cape buffalo and if the shot passed thru his guts you have an angry buff on you hands that is not soon to die. A 45-70 was approved by my PH for my buff hunt although I ended up using the bigger 416. Why would an experienced PH approve if this round if it was a poor choice? He knew it would do the job! Shot placement is what matters and a 400 grain 45-70 or even the Hornady 325 grain put right behind the shoulder or in the neck of a buff will bring him down. Given the same shots that I took on my buff dine with my Marlin would have killed the animal.

 

[Grady]

All this talk about weather a 45-70 can kill African Dangerous Game.....The simple answer is YES. The 45-70 has taken many DG and Plains Game animals in Africa and the US (Grizzly, Brown Bear) and more Buffalo and Bison than anyone could count. It is more about proper bullet selection and shot placement than velocity. A well placed shot with quality bullets and a lower velocity will do the job just as well as a well placed shot with quality bullets and a high velocity....the key being a "well placed shot with quality bullets"!

Here is a link to the Garret Cartridges website that give the story of Vince Lupo, who shot the Big 6 (Elephant, Rhinoceros, Hippopotamus, Cape Buffalo, Lion and Leopard) with a 45-70 and the proper ammo if you have any doubts that it can be done. www.garrettcartridges.com/luposafaris.html

What is a DG rifle? This is not as simple of an answer. But it starts with rifle or bow (many DG have fallen to a bow) that the hunter has confidence in, is not shy of the recoil (or the draw weight) and can put the bullet (or arrow) where it is supposed to go! Would I take a 308 or a 60lb bow on a DG hunt? No! As hunters we are responsible to not let the animal suffer, whether you shot a 375, 416, 338 or others, you are responsible to ensure you have enough gun to be a responsible and ethical hunter.

Just me 2 cents!

 

[ChrisG]

I'm not sure why a .458 cal, 400gr bullet of decent BC moving at over 2000fps, that produces over 4000ft/lbs of energy is deemed inadequate or problematic on buffalo. Not like it hasnt been done before. Is it the best choice? No. Is it adequate? Of course. There seems to be an ingrained prejudice towards the .45-70, perhaps due to those who try to attribute to it qualities it truly lacks. However given the ballistics above there is no reason it should be considered inadequate at typical buffalo ranges.

Hi I am new to this forum and have never hunted in Africa, but I am a ballistics lover and I do own a .375 H&H and a .45-70. I am first and foremost a mechanical engineer and I just would like to politely correct those who either haven't noticed it or find it a moot point... A 400 grain bullet of any caliber moving along at 2000 fps is not even close to 4000 ft.lbs... it is more like 3500 and change. To get 4000 ft-lbs out of any kind of lever action Marlin, especially given the constraints of the heat in Africa and it's effect on chamber pressure, you would have to use incredibly slow burning powder or an obtrusively long barrel. Of the former, you cannot fit enough into the case to get that kind of velocity (necessary for 4000 f.p.e.) to begin with, for the latter, possible but unlikely. By my calculations you would need 2150 to get just over 4000 ft-lbs. Just thought I would correct some of your math.

 

[Ado]

A buffalo could probably be taken with a well placed frozen herring but, the question is:
"What's the point"?

Velo Dog, what caliber is the frozen herring?

Love it...

Ado

 

[Velo Dog]

A buffalo could probably be taken with a well placed frozen herring but, the question is:
"What's the point"?

Velo Dog, what caliber is the frozen herring?

Love it...

Ado

4-inch, 5-tenths, 7-one hundredths, and O-one thousandths.

 

[Royal27]

After reading this thread I'm starting to want a lever action.

And I have this suden urge to buy a can of sardines....

 

[sestoppelman]

Hi I am new to this forum and have never hunted in Africa, but I am a ballistics lover and I do own a .375 H&H and a .45-70. I am first and foremost a mechanical engineer and I just would like to politely correct those who either haven't noticed it or find it a moot point... A 400 grain bullet of any caliber moving along at 2000 fps is not even close to 4000 ft.lbs... it is more like 3500 and change. To get 4000 ft-lbs out of any kind of lever action Marlin, especially given the constraints of the heat in Africa and it's effect on chamber pressure, you would have to use incredibly slow burning powder or an obtrusively long barrel. Of the former, you cannot fit enough into the case to get that kind of velocity (necessary for 4000 f.p.e.) to begin with, for the latter, possible but unlikely. By my calculations you would need 2150 to get just over 4000 ft-lbs. Just thought I would correct some of your math.

OK, third time is the charm as the saying goes. Site went down twice while typing my reply to this!

First of all welcome to the forum. So if I may correct YOUR math a bit, yes I know the formula too. It takes just 2122 fps to get 4000 lbs of energy with a 400 gr bullet. Your 2150 fps will yield 4106 lbs of energy, so if math is your thing, we need to be exact, especially if you are going to correct someone else's math. I think while we may have tossed the 4K figure around in cavalier fashion, it amounts to just being sloppy. Fact is, the .45-70 can reach that number without much trouble in a Ruger No.1 rifle and I suppose even in the Marlin 95 which is a pretty strong rifle, though its not something I would attempt. The Ruger no problemo. This argument is loads of fun but its been rendered somewhat moot by the facts. And the facts are that the .45-70 has already done what some say can't or should not be done with it. It has taken all large African game already. Is it the perfect choice perhaps not, is there such a thing, probably not for all situations. That's why we have soooooo many different rounds to choose from. The blazing hot temps of Africa are usually not a problem as most of the hunting goes on in southern Africa during their winter when freezing temps are not uncommon and daytime highs often quite moderate, so that's not really an issue either. Lets face it, the .45-70 is not perfect but the continued disparaging of it is sort of silly and mostly theoretical based on things like ballistic coefficient's and penetration and sectional density. All wonderful things to talk about around a hot stove, but overblown to some extent. In the real world a premium quality 400 gr bullet of .458 diameter leaving the muzzle of whatever fired it, at or around 2000 fps will hammer any critter in its path pretty hard. Not as hard as some but harder than others. Ballistic figures and theories aside.

 

[ChrisG]

OK, third time is the charm as the saying goes. Site went down twice while typing my reply to this!

First of all welcome to the forum. So if I may correct YOUR math a bit, yes I know the formula too. It takes just 2122 fps to get 4000 lbs of energy with a 400 gr bullet. Your 2150 fps will yield 4106 lbs of energy, so if math is your thing, we need to be exact, especially if you are going to correct someone else's math. I think while we may have tossed the 4K figure around in cavalier fashion, it amounts to just being sloppy. Fact is, the .45-70 can reach that number without much trouble in a Ruger No.1 rifle and I suppose even in the Marlin 95 which is a pretty strong rifle, though its not something I would attempt. The Ruger no problemo. This argument is loads of fun but its been rendered somewhat moot by the facts. And the facts are that the .45-70 has already done what some say can't or should not be done with it. It has taken all large African game already. Is it the perfect choice perhaps not, is there such a thing, probably not for all situations. That's why we have soooooo many different rounds to choose from. The blazing hot temps of Africa are usually not a problem as most of the hunting goes on in southern Africa during their winter when freezing temps are not uncommon and daytime highs often quite moderate, so that's not really an issue either. Lets face it, the .45-70 is not perfect but the continued disparaging of it is sort of silly and mostly theoretical based on things like ballistic coefficient's and penetration and sectional density. All wonderful things to talk about around a hot stove, but overblown to some extent. In the real world a premium quality 400 gr bullet of .458 diameter leaving the muzzle of whatever fired it, at or around 2000 fps will hammer any critter in its path pretty hard. Not as hard as some but harder than others. Ballistic figures and theories aside.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I didn't give exact numbers in that you are right... I noticed when I start doing that, people lose interest or fall asleep. I also don't do that because I feel like people see that as me being pretentious, and that is something I also try to avoid. But if I may defend my position... *DEEP BREATH IN*

I was solely referencing lever guns. I am well aware of the fact that, through a Ruger No.1 with a max pressure rating of 50,000 C.U.P., a .45-70 is well within the limits of capably pushing a 400 grain slug to about 2,200 fps. The 400 grainer has a reasonable sectional density of 0.272 so it should penetrate fairly well. My point was that a lever action, particularly the Marlin and the discontinued Winchester guide guns, in .45-70 cannot be called upon to readily do the same thing repeatably. A lever action marlin is limited to about 40,000 C.U.P. and yes, I know you can push it beyond that but it WILL eventually damage the gun. As to how strong the guns are...

I can tell you that I worked at a gunsmith for a long time when I was in high school and several 1895 and 336's (the baby 1895 as they share the same basic action, one is just larger) came through that shop in need of a serious work or were useful only as paperweights because of homemade "superformance" ammunition. Up here, people hot rod their ammunition like most people hot rod their cars. I have seen at least three 1895s that have had their action stretched to such a point that it was no longer safe to fire. One guy had loaded 64 grains of of IMR3031 (60 grains is a compressed charge) behind a 350 grain slug of some description.. (claimed 2,250 fps and I believe it). While IMR 3031 is not a slow powder, it isn't the fastest either. He fired 25 rounds and had stretched his action by almost two hundredths of an inch. Basically the brass at the base of the shells was beginning to flow into the feed ramp every time he shot it (must have been close to 60,000PSI). When we pulled the breech block it had significantly compressed the steel below it in the frame. Ironically, the brass was easily extracted and, while the primers were mashed flush with the back of the case, they were not punctured despite the incredible pressure. My point is while it is possible to hot rod a .45-70 for hunting dangerous game, it will sooner or later ruin a Marlin guide gun. I much prefer to stick to SAAMI specs, which is what gun makers implicitly design their guns to handle. In a hyped up configuration... yes I think the .45-70 will kill any of the big five, even in normal configuration it is not to be taken lightly and will absolutely KILL anything on the planet. Just not without precise placement and even then, it's effects will likely not be immediately apparent. In most normal hunting that is all that is necessary, to kill the animal relatively quickly... but I would think that the PH wants you to put it down quick, and the quicker the better. I know that is what I would prefer if I were a PH. Because of that fact, I am a firm believer that there are definitely cartridges and rifles far better suited than a lever action .45-70 that are equally as shoot-able or better (.375 H&H comes to mind) and have a major advantage in penetration, shock and energy than the good old .45-70 Gov't. A .45-70 in a No.1 is a totally different proposition.



Sorry that this is so long. I like to explain things in detail so that you know where I am coming from. And don't take this as me trying to prove that I am smarter, or my ideas are better or any such rubbish... At the end of the day this only my opinion and nothing more.