O'Conner vs Keith (Small & Fast vs Big & Slow) - Which is Best?

Which is Best? Small and Fast? or Large and Slow? for hunting non-DG animals?

  • Small and Fast is Best like the 270w or the 7mm Mag

    Votes: 9 19.1%
  • Big Slow Bullets are the path to hunting success like the 44mag, 45-70, 444 Marlin, etc

    Votes: 10 21.3%
  • Both are equally effective for hunting

    Votes: 28 59.6%

  • Total voters
    47
  • This poll will close: .
@BryceM, not too sure about the .300 on a charging elephant. I don’t think even the best constructed.30 caliber bullet will penetrate 2 feet of bone to the brain. I get the sentiment, it’s best to be comfortable with your gear but a charging elephant will relieve you of all future worries if yo try to stop it with a .300.
The only time I ever felt under gunned was on a pissed off cow, I was holding a .375 Ruger that I am extremely comfortable with as I carry it every day during season.
I exaggerate, a bit maybe, and saying something like this risks starting a lively discussion - I get it. That said, a .300 solid or .7mm solid will absolutely penetrate that far. Ask Walter Karamojo Bell about the .275 for elephant. :)

If you miss the brain, your chances are a lot better with a big bore, no argument there, but you better have good bullets and be confident about where they’re likely to go.

There is nothing magical about larger diameter bullets for penetration. It’s all about sectional density and bullet design.
 
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I was actually looking for some .338 solids for some tiny tens but haven’t gotten any responses. Does any company out there still manufacture solids in 7mm, 300 or .338? I would love to get some!
 
Put an Arizona Coues deer in front of me at 300 yards and I'll use my 7mm magnum with 140gr Ballistic Tips at around 3000fps.

Put an Eland in front of me at 200 yards or closer and I'll take my 375HH with 300gr North Forks.

My answer is both to the asked question. It's silly to say either is "best."

One is best in certain scenarios, while the other is best in other scenarios. Having said that, for an African hunt that includes buffalo, I'll say it has I have before. I'll take my .470 double for the buffalo and if the situation arises I might even use for PG if they're close and I'm away from the truck. The other rifle will be my .375HH for a DG backup and all other PG that is within typical African distances that I define as 200 yards and in.

I can't think of a better two gun battery for that scenario. Exclusively PG that could include Eland, then it's my .375HH and something from my .300WM and on down from there, whatever I just feel like hunting with.
@PHOENIX PHIL
You and others seem to have the same philosophy. Horses for courses.
Both light and fast and big and slow, dang even big and a bit of speed all have a place.
To me it's match the cartridge to the game and the situation.
Would I use my fast 25 in short range work on medium to biggish game. Probably not due to fear if bullet failure even with monos at short range and high velocity. Step the range out past 200 yards and yes I would.
On the other hand the Whelen at close range shines with its big bullets but conversely it shines at longer ranges with lighter bullets.
To me there's NO CORRECT ANSWER. Both are equally effective in the correct application
That's why God let us invent a plethora of cartridges so we can eternally have these discussions/arguments as no one cartridge will do it all. It would be a pretty boring world if we all shot just one cartridge. Where's the fun in owning just one gun
Just my thoughts.
 
Big and slow is perhaps a relative term. My original question excluded DG hunting and was focused on mainly North American big game and non-DG, African Plains game. It should have implied also that it was not focused on North American DG such as Brown bears and Grizzly bears.

I am not sure I would call the 375HH big and slow. But, I guess that depends on if I am comparing it to the 243 or the 458, lol. The 375 is a great PG cartridge but is really the 243 of the Dangerous Game cartridges. It and the 9.3mm are the smallest of the legal for DG options. But, it is also applied quite successfully to larger North American big game such as elk or moose, etc. For those applications it might be big and slow when compared to a 7mm Mag or 300WM.

This sort of discussion quickly devolves into 50 shades of grey instead of a true black or white argument. While Keith was very involved in pistol cartridge development, this discussion is about rifles and hunting. When I think of big and slow, I am thinking of rounds like 450 Bushmaster, 350 Legend, 444 Marlin, 45-70, etc. Most fling a bullet in excess of 200g wt at speeds in the low 2000's or teens. They may or may not expand reliably and depend more on a large bullet diameter and heavy mass to do their job. Light and fast is also somewhat relative but for discussion purposes, might be defined as rifle rounds capable of muzzle velocity in excess of Mach 2 as a minimal and ideally over 2.5 Mach and bullet weights that are less than average for a given application. i.e. For a deer rifle, if the 165-180g 30cal is the average, then a 100-130g might be light and the 220-300g might be heavy.
@JG26Irish_2
People seem to forget Keith was responsible for the development of more than pistol cartridges.
Him and his mates O'Niel and Hopkins developed the 333 OKH that went on to become supposedly in of the best big game cartridges to come down the turn pike. The 338 win mag. Even tho ol' Elmer favoured the big 275s and 300s in it it is equally at home with a 210 gn at higher speeds.
But then again he also loves the 35 and 400 Whelen .
Bob
 
@JG26Irish_2
People seem to forget Keith was responsible for the development of more than pistol cartridges.
Him and his mates O'Niel and Hopkins developed the 333 OKH that went on to become supposedly in of the best big game cartridges to come down the turn pike. The 338 win mag. Even tho ol' Elmer favoured the big 275s and 300s in it it is equally at home with a 210 gn at higher speeds.
But then again he also loves the 35 and 400 Whelen .
Bob
Quite a lot in the Cartridges for Large game on the 400 Whelen.
 
@JG26Irish_2
People seem to forget Keith was responsible for the development of more than pistol cartridges.
Him and his mates O'Niel and Hopkins developed the 333 OKH that went on to become supposedly in of the best big game cartridges to come down the turn pike. The 338 win mag. Even tho ol' Elmer favoured the big 275s and 300s in it it is equally at home with a 210 gn at higher speeds.
But then again he also loves the 35 and 400 Whelen .
Bob
Supposedly???Naaaa

.338 RULES!!!!!!
:A Banana:
 
This is purely personal preferance on my part so take it for what is worth. I hunted with a 30-06, 270 and a 7mm-08 for many years, then I got a 35 Whelen and those other three cartridges all became back-up never to see another day in the field. My dad just gave me a Zastava 9.3x62 so now those small bore rifles may never leave the gun safe. While hunting have a personal range limit of 300 yards, and at those distances nothing beats a mid-bore.
 
Supposedly???Naaaa

.338 RULES!!!!!!
:A Banana:
@VINOYASADO
The 338 wimpchester couldn't even rule a henhouse.
Dang it even only just equals the 35 Whelen in some loads and it needs a belt and a big does of powder and fury to do the same thing.
The mighty Whelen don't need no stupid belt to hold its pants up and can stand proud amongst the so called superior wimpchester.
The Whelen has one thing the 338 will never ever have.
CLASS.
Bob
 
I should be the last person to mention this, but I think most wives prefer big and slow to small and fast...
@steve white
Long and thin may get it in but short and fat is where it's at. So I'm told
Pick your camp and be happy
Bob
 

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schwerpunkt88 wrote on Robmill70's profile.
Morning Rob, Any feeling for how the 300 H&H shoots? How's the barrel condition?
mrpoindexter wrote on Charlm's profile.
Hello. I see you hunted with Sampie recently. If you don't mind me asking, where did you hunt with him? Zim or SA? And was it with a bow? What did you hunt?

I am possibly going to book with him soon.
Currently doing a load development on a .404 Jeffrey... it's always surprising to load .423 caliber bullets into a .404 caliber rifle. But we love it when we get 400 Gr North Fork SS bullets to 2300 FPS, those should hammer down on buffalo. Next up are the Cutting Edge solids and then Raptors... load 200 rounds of ammo for the customer and on to the next gun!
 
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