Nosler ballistic tip for Gemsbok ?? Yes or no?

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Velo dog
Love your choice of old calibers for Africa, always wanted a 318 Wesley Richards and a 404 Jeffery. Always been my choice since reading the likes of Ruark, Seleous, Taylor and others 50 years ago when I was 10. It will never happen now but at least I got to hunt it with an American 9.3 x 62. 35 Whelan to normal people. Did a great job on my kudu. Hit him front and found the bullet in his ham after over 5foot of penetration. I will try and upload a picture of the two projectiles recovered. Left projectile accubond right woodleigh. Second photo top accubond bottom woodleigh. The final photo is my kudu. 52 inches not as big as some but good for the Kalahari and I'm more than happy with mine.

 

[Dr Ray]

What caliber did you use ??

 

[MarkB]

I stopped using Nosler Ballistic Tips in a 300 Win mag a long time ago (when I was very young) after shooting a big moose 3 times and thinking man they are tough. But when cleaning found lead/jacket separation and jackets were under skin on the onside hide, only core's had penetrated. Switched to partitions for many years, then on Safari they worked perfect for quick kills but NOT good for taxidermist, some species exploded on impact. Last safari in Namibia 40 animals all fell to 165 accubonds in 308 win, outstanding bullet performance. Accubonds are all I have shot in every caliber I use for the last 12? years. Next safari this summer 2020 we will see how the 165's work in the new WSM and the 260's in the 375. Must say I have been a nosler guy for a very long time. Good bullets and reasonable price.

MB

 

[Velo Dog]

Velo dog
Love your choice of old calibers for Africa, always wanted a 318 Wesley Richards and a 404 Jeffery. Always been my choice since reading the likes of Ruark, Seleous, Taylor and others 50 years ago when I was 10. It will never happen now but at least I got to hunt it with an American 9.3 x 62. 35 Whelan to normal people. Did a great job on my kudu. Hit him front and found the bullet in his ham after over 5foot of penetration. I will try and upload a picture of the two projectiles recovered. Left projectile accubond right woodleigh. Second photo top accubond bottom woodleigh. The final photo is my kudu. 52 inches not as big as some but good for the Kalahari and I'm more than happy with mine.
View attachment 320863 View attachment 320864 View attachment 320865

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the vote of confidence.
And, great minds think alike.
I applaud your choice in calibers as well.

As one of the big name gun writers (Craig Boddington ?) once said:
“It’s a bit of a mystery as to why the .35 Whelen has not been especially popular in Africa” or, words to that affect.

I agree that it seems strange that the Whelen is not extremely popular for Africa.
My best guess is that most visiting hunters are enamored with “belted magnums”.
Plus, those who are not giddy over belted cartridges, have had the excellent 9.3x62 now, since before WW-I.
And the 9.3x62 is better today than ever, with current production tough premium bullets (as is the situation with most all rifle calibers).

That said, I’m guilty of preferring for African so called “plains game”, the .375 H&H and to a slightly lesser degree, the .300 H&H.
Which of these two depends on what species I’m likely to encounter and what geography and foliage conditions I’ll be hunting them in.

However at the end of the day, all of the non-dangerous critters I’ve shot in Africa and North America as well, no doubt would’ve succumbed quickly, if I had instead used nothing but a .35 Whelen for them.
I’d have chosen the 250 grain in thick cover and 225 grain in more open country.

Anyway cheers,
Paul.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the vote of confidence.
And, great minds think alike.
I applaud your choice in calibers as well.

As one of the big name gun writers (Craig Boddington ?) once said:
“It’s a bit of a mystery as to why the .35 Whelen has not been especially popular in Africa” or, words to that affect.

I agree that it seems strange that the Whelen is not extremely popular for Africa.
My best guess is that most visiting hunters are enamored with “belted magnums”.
Plus, those who are not giddy over belted cartridges, have had the excellent 9.3x62 now, since before WW-I.
And the 9.3x62 is better today than ever, with current production tough premium bullets (as is the situation with most all rifle calibers).

That said, I’m guilty of preferring for African so called “plains game”, the .375 H&H and to a slightly lesser degree, the .300 H&H.
Which of these two depends on what species I’m likely to encounter and what geography and foliage conditions I’ll be hunting them in.

However at the end of the day, all of the non-dangerous critters I’ve shot in Africa and North America as well, no doubt would’ve succumbed quickly, if I had instead used nothing but a .35 Whelen for them.
I’d have chosen the 250 grain in thick cover and 225 grain in more open country.

Anyway cheers,
Paul.

Paul
Love the old 375 and 300 H&H. Even better with modern bullets and powder.
I tried the 250 gn Speer hotcore with Speer load of 64 grains of cfe223 chronoed velocity of 2,700fps, now that gets your attention when you pull the trigger. I didn't feel I needed that for PG. It would be interesting to launch a 275grain or 300grain woodleigh at between 2,300 and 2,500fps. I think that would make bigger game sit up and take notice. I would feel comfortable taking a cape buff with the 300gn round nose or solid.

 

[gordon kings langley]

When hunting plains game, the best amo is
Nosler partition or Barnes TSX

 

[Divernhunter]

Swift A-Frames----Tag your turn. I have quite a number more. I will never use BT bullets for anything again. I have seen too many fails. NEVER had a fail with A-Frames on large or small animals.

 

[Chago]

I just want to make sure the OP knows that the ballistic tip does not represent all polymer tipped bullets. The nosler ballistic tip as mentioned a few times now is made for thinner skinned game, in a slower moving caliber. Great on varmints etc.

If you want the high Ballistic Coefficient of polymer tips and long range accuracy. A great option is the hornady ELD X. Works perfectly in 300, it's actually what I use. And I use the 212 grains. I used it on my last Safari. And it took down kudu, Sable, blue wildebeest, nyala, gemsbok, nyala, zebra and blesbok without any issue at all.

I have also taken canadian moose and elk with it. Which are bigger then all plains game in Africa.

Mind you a lot of other great options have been offered above. I'm just a big accuracy guy. And love the eld X.

 

[curtism1234]

While the debate of the nosler ballistic tip relative to the cartridge and game are important, I think the greater message of this thread should be --- know what guns/ammo you will be renting.

A lot of these outfitters make specific recommendations / demands for minimum cartridges and premium bonded ammo when their customers bring their own guns. Then at the same time, the same outfitters wrap their broken stocks with duct tape and let their customers shoot whatever the hell ammo is laying around the property or whatever happens to be in stock at the store.

Imo, outfitters should treat gun/ammo rentals like any other aspect of their business. If they have a 300 win mag for rent, then prior to the hunting season they need to predict how many clients will be using the rifle and how much ammo they will go through. They need to know what preferred ammo they want and exactly how much it costs them per shot.

If a customer wants to leave 30 rounds of their own ammo behind, outfitters should dispose of it because they should already have their supply chain and costs already fixed into their pricing.

 

[Velo Dog]

Khomas Highland Hunting Safaris has only German made rifles / scopes to rent for clients and top quality ammunition for same.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I just want to make sure the OP knows that the ballistic tip does not represent all polymer tipped bullets. The nosler ballistic tip as mentioned a few times now is made for thinner skinned game, in a slower moving caliber. Great on varmints etc.

If you want the high Ballistic Coefficient of polymer tips and long range accuracy. A great option is the hornady ELD X. Works perfectly in 300, it's actually what I use. And I use the 212 grains. I used it on my last Safari. And it took down kudu, Sable, blue wildebeest, nyala, gemsbok, nyala, zebra and blesbok without any issue at all.

I have also taken canadian moose and elk with it. Which are bigger then all plains game in Africa.

Mind you a lot of other great options have been offered above. I'm just a big accuracy guy. And love the eld X.

Chago
The safari my family hunted in Namibia with 2 others was great except for one thing.
One of the hunters in our group used the owners 300 win mag loaded with the same ELDX you used. He found even tho it killed well he regarded it as a miserable failure because of the core separations on all shots. The biggest bit of the projectile he found was a,jacket and a part of the lower core. Retained weight was only about 70 grains. All the game he shot had core separations no matter the range.
A better projectile would have been the accubond or accubond long range. Fare better than the ELDX for staying together.
I used a 35 Whelan with accubonds and woodleigh projectiles and never had a separation even when hitting the femur of a Hartman zebra.
Just my 2 cents worth every thing he shot was dead but some did need 2 shots because of bullets separations.
CHEERS
Bob
The bullet is a35 cal 225grain woodleigh PPSN that hit a Hartman zebra smashed the femur destroying heart and lungs smashed other side and lodged under the skin on the offside.
Impact velocity 2,600 fps @ 100 yards.

 

[Chago]

Chago
The safari my family hunted in Namibia with 2 others was great except for one thing.
One of the hunters in our group used the owners 300 win mag loaded with the same ELDX you used. He found even tho it killed well he regarded it as a miserable failure because of the core separations on all shots. The biggest bit of the projectile he found was a,jacket and a part of the lower core. Retained weight was only about 70 grains. All the game he shot had core separations no matter the range.
A better projectile would have been the accubond or accubond long range. Fare better than the ELDX for staying together.
I used a 35 Whelan with accubonds and woodleigh projectiles and never had a separation even when hitting the femur of a Hartman zebra.
Just my 2 cents worth every thing he shot was dead but some did need 2 shots because of bullets separations.
CHEERS
Bob
The bullet is a35 cal 225grain woodleigh PPSN that hit a Hartman zebra smashed the femur destroying heart and lungs smashed other side and lodged under the skin on the offside.
Impact velocity 2,600 fps @ 100 yards. View attachment 323644

That's strange. Any idea on what the load was ? Cause I've shot 4-5 dozen animals with my load and never experienced that. I wonder if he's loading them super hot and experiencing some issues. Even so he shouldn't ever experience that. But that's strange. Never heard that before. Thanks for sharing.

 

[fourfive8]

Makes perfect sense actually. That issue's been known about the Hornady Interlock ever since it was introduced years ago- 1977 to be exact. The ELDX was designed for maximum BC at long range. Just watch the Hornady marketing video and tell me the Hornady techs and marketers were the least bit interested in a quality, controlled expanding hunting bullet... It's all about ballistics, long range hunting (animal sniping) and marketing. I chuckled out load at the drama the Hornady reps tried to gin up as they were "struggling" to get the last 10 BC points out of that bullet! It is simply a long, "slippery", non bonded, plastic tipped, cup and core bullet based on their old and failure prone cup and core Interlock design. Over cook one or shoot at normal hunting ranges with a fast and/or light bullet into a tough animal and expect a percentage of jacket shredding or jacket-core separation failures.

And actually the Nosler BT was designed and put on the market even a little earlier than the Hornady IL... sometime in the mid to late 1960s, IIRC. It was originally called the Nosler Solid Base. Later the marketing buzz/hype was about plastic tips so Nosler simply added a plastic tip to their Solid Base and called it a Ballistic Tip. Then came the mutations and collaborations began, including at least one with Winchester. But the basic BT is still similar to the Hornady Interlock's performance on game with a tendency to fail some percentage of the time. The Nosler BT is simply a conventional cup and core with a thick base with a recognizable "trademark" type of failure where the jacket comes apart in long, curved fragments while shucking its core. These long jacket shards then tend to leave the bullet track axis at very oblique angles.

With so many really good, premium, tough hunting bullets on the market now, I'm always mystified by the fascination for choosing long range target bullets for hunting? Is it price? Is it BC?

 

[Chago]

Makes perfect sense actually. That issue's been known about the Hornady Interlock ever since it was introduced years ago- 1977 to be exact. The ELDX was designed for maximum BC at long range. Just watch the Hornady marketing video and tell me the Hornady techs and marketers were the least bit interested in a quality, controlled expanding hunting bullet... It's all about ballistics, long range hunting (animal sniping) and marketing. I chuckled out load at the drama the Hornady reps tried to gin up as they were "struggling" to get the last 10 BC points out of that bullet! It is simply a long, "slippery", non bonded, plastic tipped, cup and core bullet based on their old and failure prone cup and core Interlock design. Over cook one or shoot at normal hunting ranges with a fast and/or light bullet into a tough animal and expect a percentage of jacket shredding or jacket-core separation failures.

And actually the Nosler BT was designed and put on the market even a little earlier than the Hornady IL... sometime in the mid to late 1960s, IIRC. It was originally called the Nosler Solid Base. Later the marketing buzz/hype was about plastic tips so Nosler simply added a plastic tip to their Solid Base and called it a Ballistic Tip. Then came the mutations and collaborations began, including at least one with Winchester. But the basic BT is still similar to the Hornady Interlock's performance on game with a tendency to fail some percentage of the time. The Nosler BT is simply a conventional cup and core with a thick base with a recognizable "trademark" type of failure where the jacket comes apart in long, curved frags while shucking its core. These long jacket fragments then tend to leave the bullet track axis at very oblique angles.

With so many really good, premium, tough hunting bullets on the market now, I'm always mystified by the fascination for choosing long range target bullets for hunting? Is it price? Is it BC?

I shot a red stag last season at very close range. I shot my Sable at very close range too. Both animals dropped immediately. Bullets were recovered. I'm gonna check my gun room later. I think I have the one from the stag. Performed exactly as expected.

I wonder if these issues are more prone is certain bullet sizes. Narrower bullets like 6.5 or 7. I'm heading back to RSA in may. I'll be using the eld X on kudu ,eland, mountain zebra, black beast and a few smaller guy.

I'll try to do a full report. Yardage, velocity. And of course the recovered bullets. Again I have had nothing but great results.

 

[40inarow]

I had the rare opportunity, due to the fact that I was a vendor to the Remington Arms Plant in Arkansas, to have a conversation with a product manager of Remington bullets. If you are a bullet manufacturer in America, your market is deer hunters. You need to make bullets that perform well on deer. The percentage of the market that shoots bigger animals is too small to consider. The Ballistic Tip bullet is a great deer bullet. I have had great success with 140 gr Ballistic Tips in 260 Rem on deer and hogs and with 200 gr Ballistic Tips in 338 Win Mag on deer, hogs, Auodad Sheep, and cow Elk. When I took Blue Wildebeast and Gemsbok in Africa I used 225 gr Barnes TSK with the 338. It performed so well on 9 animals, my PH offered to buy the rifle. The point of the story is, if you are to hunt bigger game, you must pick your bullets to match the game you are hunting and the default average bullet is designed for deer, so use a premium bullet. A 165 gr, 30 cal Ballistic Tip is designed for deer, it's not a bullet I would use, even in a 200 gr 338 for Blue Wildebeest or Gemsbok.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

That's strange. Any idea on what the load was ? Cause I've shot 4-5 dozen animals with my load and never experienced that. I wonder if he's loading them super hot and experiencing some issues. Even so he shouldn't ever experience that. But that's strange. Never heard that before. Thanks for sharing.

Chago
Factory loads. Yes they are accurate and kill game he just didn't like the core separations. He said he would be reluctant to take a shot that needed an angling penetration.

 

[Newboomer]

I think you hit the nail right on the head. American companies focus on deer size game. That doesn't cut it in Africa. Those animals are a whole different ballgame, bigger and much tougher. I use Barnes TSX in my rifles for pg and dg. However, last year I took my 6.5 CR and used Hornady 143g ELD-X for impala, bushbuck and springbok. Perfect performance from 80 to 286 yards. All dropped in their tracks.

 

[ack]

My regards to all the foristas. Recently I came back from a hunt in the Limpopo province, South Africa. I rented rifle in the concession, a Ruger cal 300 Winch mag, and the ammunition were refills with tips Nosler balistic tip of 165 grains.
I fired a gemsbok about 100 meters away and if the shot entered something behind the paddle compromising lungs and left the opposite side, the animal was wounded and I could recover the next day. With the blue weldebeest, the shot entered crossed and although it fell to the animal, the tip was lodged in the back room, it had completely lost the nucleus of lead.
My question is: is the use of this tip correct, in that weight (165 grains) in a fast caliber caliber like 300 WM, what do you think?
Thank you.

No !

 

[40inarow]

I think you hit the nail right on the head. American companies focus on deer size game. That doesn't cut it in Africa. Those animals are a whole different ballgame, bigger and much tougher. I use Barnes TSX in my rifles for pg and dg. However, last year I took my 6.5 CR and used Hornady 143g ELD-X for impala, bushbuck and springbok. Perfect performance from 80 to 286 yards. All dropped in their tracks.

Yes, it makes perfect sense once you understand what is the driver of their market. Also, it makes perfect sense that those bullets do so well on impala, bushbuck, and springbok. The American bullets are great for those applications!

 

[IvW]

This is what a Nosher Ballistic tip does to a Gemsbok at 150 yards

View attachment 320860

And this is the results at 200 yards...

View attachment 320861

Any Questions???

Yes, where was the shot placement?

I do not see any holes in the right places?