No. 4 Mk 1 Project Ideas

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hi Bob. Yes, I've heard about the 7.62/.308 issue. Something about headspace, case thickness, several different things that can make interchanging ammo difficult. But at the same time, I kinda wonder how much of a problem it really is? I mean, people with G3s, FALs, M14s, boltguns of all kinds, converted M1s, have more than likely fed one or through a rifle supposedly chambered for the other. Not saying you should just swap ammo willy-nilly but I do question how much of a problem it could really be. Perhaps it's something to look into with more attention.

As for my rifle, yeah I'd prefer it to not blow up in my face so if I reeeally wanted to turn it into an L42A1, I'd need to have it tested. Which is why just doing a L42-esque rebuild but keeping the .303 round would at least look cool compared to the other .303s out there and would be OK for me.

@WebleyGreene455
You could always look up the L39 A SMLE. It's the civilian version of the L42A1. There are 2 versions both have mags but only one feeds and rejects, the other is single shot. If you want more oomph you could go the 303 Epps or just run a Krag improved reamer into it.
The main problem with case stretching comes from reloading. If you use a neck size die and only size the neck you avoid case stretching. When cases become hard to chamber just use a body die to bump the shoulder back then neck size.
303 projectiles come in various sizes from .310 to .312. If your die doesn't size the neck small enough for the .310 projectiles I just run the neck into a 308 Winchester die and load the projectiles. Problem solved .
Doing this I have been able to get up to 10 loads per case. I trim to length after 5 loads or sooner if needed.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen the only number I found on my bolt was a “1” next to the extractor. Is this good or bad?

@Wyatt Smith
You looked in the correct place. If you c and get hold of a no2 or no3 bolt head this should solve your headspace issue..
To check the headspace without gauges is very easy. Cut up an aluminum Budweiser can and Measure the thickness. With one piece (usually .003 to .004 tho) glued to the rim the bolt should close. 2 thickness should not allow t h e bolt to close no go go gauge.
If you need a new bolt head PM me and I will send you one
Bob.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Wyatt I think I could come up with a wooden stock if your interested, I had a complete set of military furniture for on I gave to a buddy that I don’t think did anything with it.

@Skinnersblade
G'day Lawrence long time no hear. Hope you and your dad are keeping safe and well my friend. How are you going with your guiding license.
Talk to you later.
Bob.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

@Wyatt Smith
You looked in the correct place. If you c and get hold of a no2 or no3 bolt head this should solve your headspace issue..
To check the headspace without gauges is very easy. Cut up an aluminum Budweiser can and Measure the thickness. With one piece (usually .003 to .004 tho) glued to the rim the bolt should close. 2 thickness should not allow t h e bolt to close no go go gauge.
If you need a new bolt head PM me and I will send you one
Bob.

proper shim gauges can also be had from any automotive store for a nominal fee, I pay aroundfive dollars and everything’s more in Canada. If they ask just tell them your setting valves.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen The Smellie Whisperer?

@ZG47
Is that the SMLE whispered or the smelly whisperer. I do shower daily and use deodorant so I don't really stink Ha ha ha ha.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

proper shim gauges can also be had from any automotive store for a nominal fee, I pay aroundfive dollars and everything’s more in Canada. If they ask just tell them your setting valves.

@Skinnersblade
Where's the fun in that. This way you can have a beer and make your own for Lee than a buck fifty and still have change out of your 5 dollars for another couple of beers or a small jar of vegemite.
Bob

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

Out

@Skinnersblade
G'day Lawrence long time no hear. Hope you and your dad are keeping safe and well my friend. How are you going with your guiding license.
Talk to you later.
Bob.

Alls well here bob the guiding license is on hold due to Covid, I don’t know when they’ll hold corses again.
how are you and yours doing?

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Wyatt I think I could come up with a wooden stock if your interested, I had a complete set of military furniture for on I gave to a buddy that I don’t think did anything with it.

Thanks, but I’ll keep these on. This rifle will more than likely ride behind the seat of a pickup truck for the rest of its life. Also it fits surprisingly well.

 

[ZG47]

@ZG47
Is that the SMLE whispered or the smelly whisperer. I do shower daily and use deodorant so I don't really stink Ha ha ha ha.
Bob

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen Like a horse whisperer, obviously. These West Island types!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

if the 405 win will fit, do not go for the std twist.
a 1:12 or 1:13 will handle bullets up to 1.5" long,
you are now talking bullets up to 440ish gns.
that said it will still handle 300 gn bullets equally well.
the sort of velocities you will get, cast alloy bullets with gas checks will work.
you just need to get the alloy right.
at these speeds alloy bullets are at no disadvantage to jacketed.
the 2 things i dislike about the lee enfield are.
absolutaly foul triggers and not much you can do about it and.
case stretching due to the spring in the rear locking bolt.
in the old days you would put up with the trigger, because factories sold reloaded military cases so cheaply you would eject the cases and leave them on the ground.
not the case today.
444 marlin and 405 win cases are not exactly easy to get, so you want them to last.
bruce.

@bruce moulds
The original triggers were not much chop but can be worked over by a good gunsmith to give a beautiful 2 stage or single stage trigger. My son's No4 late off nicely at 3 pounds.
If you want a brilliant trigger for less than 100 bucks John HUBER at Huber concept triggers does one that is completely adjustable.
The beauty of the No4 action is the headspace can be changed in less than 1 minute just by replacing the bolt head. Let's see your Winchester and Remington do that.
The No4 has far less stretch than the No1 and is a far stronger action.
My son's 25 cases have been reloaded 6 times and haven't been full length sized yet, just Lee collet die. It also puts out a 90 grain Sierra game king @ 3,360 fps but I load it the same as the 100 grainers to 3,200 fps and less than 1 inch groups at 100 yards.
Any one who thinks the SMLE rifles can't be made to shoot needs to have a rethink.
Bob

 

[Cousin Bongo]

The problem is, the headspace is out. The brass is stretching to point of case head separation.

Question: Have you checked the headspace with a headspace or feeler gauge*?

The reason I ask is because case stretching in the Lee-Enfields is usually a chamber issue, not a headspace issue. Early on in WWI (1914 from what I understand), Lee-Enfields were supposedly intentionally chambered slightly oversized in the diameter and length dimensions owing to the quality of ammunition being hurriedly mass produced and the conditions in the trenches. I've found setting the barrel back and rechambering with a reamer with commercial specs usually helps greatly with case life, but even with military chambers the cases usually last several loadings.

Converting a Lee-Enfield to another chambering really isn't cost effective and functioning is oft times difficult to get right so I don't recommend it. The .303 is a very capable round. Especially, when loaded with South African CLAW 215 grain bonded core bullets.

*The way to check headspace with a feeler gauge is to take a new case (unfired) and chamber it. Now push forward on the bolt/cocking piece and see if a .017" feeler gauge will fit between the right bolt lug and right receiver locking lug. If it does, the headspace is beyond the military max (.074")(.067" is the NO-GO limit). If you can only get a .010" or less feeler inserted, it should be below the .067" NO-GO.

Some photos of a couple of Lee-Enfields I worked over into sporters (both No. 4 Mk I).

CB

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I have installed 303-25 barrel.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Question: Have you checked the headspace with a headspace or feeler gauge*?

The reason I ask is because case stretching in the Lee-Enfields is usually a chamber issue, not a headspace issue. Early on in WWI (1914 from what I understand), Lee-Enfields were supposedly intentionally chambered slightly oversized in the diameter and length dimensions owing to the quality of ammunition being hurriedly mass produced and the conditions in the trenches. I've found setting the barrel back and rechambering with a reamer with commercial specs usually helps greatly with case life, but even with military chambers the cases usually last several loadings.

Converting a Lee-Enfield to another chambering really isn't cost effective and functioning is oft times difficult to get right so I don't recommend it. The .303 is a very capable round. Especially, when loaded with South African CLAW 215 grain bonded core bullets.

*The way to check headspace with a feeler gauge is to take a new case (unfired) and chamber it. Now push forward on the bolt/cocking piece and see if a .017" feeler gauge will fit between the right bolt lug and right receiver locking lug. If it does, the headspace is beyond the military max (.074")(.067" is the NO-GO limit). If you can only get a .010" or less feeler inserted, it should be below the .067" NO-GO.

Some photos of a couple of Lee-Enfields I worked over into sporters (both No. 4 Mk I).

View attachment 390179View attachment 390180View attachment 390181View attachment 390183View attachment 390182

CB

@Cousin Bongo
The beauty of the No4 SMLE action is that minor head space issues can be fixed with a simple bolt head change. Bolt heads are usually numbered 0 to 4 with each increment adding 3 thou in length.
The No4 doesn't stretch cases as much as the No1.
As for not being cost effective, it is no dearer to rebarrel an SMLE to the same or different caliber than any other rifle. I rechambered one for the 444 marlin and only modified the magazine and ejector screw. If you have experience with the old SMLE they can be made to shoot very accurately, less than 1moa.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Question: Have you checked the headspace with a headspace or feeler gauge*?

The reason I ask is because case stretching in the Lee-Enfields is usually a chamber issue, not a headspace issue. Early on in WWI (1914 from what I understand), Lee-Enfields were supposedly intentionally chambered slightly oversized in the diameter and length dimensions owing to the quality of ammunition being hurriedly mass produced and the conditions in the trenches. I've found setting the barrel back and rechambering with a reamer with commercial specs usually helps greatly with case life, but even with military chambers the cases usually last several loadings.

Converting a Lee-Enfield to another chambering really isn't cost effective and functioning is oft times difficult to get right so I don't recommend it. The .303 is a very capable round. Especially, when loaded with South African CLAW 215 grain bonded core bullets.

*The way to check headspace with a feeler gauge is to take a new case (unfired) and chamber it. Now push forward on the bolt/cocking piece and see if a .017" feeler gauge will fit between the right bolt lug and right receiver locking lug. If it does, the headspace is beyond the military max (.074")(.067" is the NO-GO limit). If you can only get a .010" or less feeler inserted, it should be below the .067" NO-GO.

Some photos of a couple of Lee-Enfields I worked over into sporters (both No. 4 Mk I).

View attachment 390179View attachment 390180View attachment 390181View attachment 390183View attachment 390182

CB

@ cousin Bongo
Very nice old 303s.
Bob

 

[Scrumbag]

The regular .303 is a very capable deer / plains game round. You could just sort out trigger, sights and stock to suit and have fun with that...

Or, you could get funky and see if it will work in 7.62x54r

But I'd probably keep the chambering standard.

Scrummy

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

The regular .303 is a very capable deer / plains game round. You could just sort out trigger, sights and stock to suit and have fun with that...

Or, you could get funky and see if it will work in 7.62x54r

But I'd probably keep the chambering standard.

Scrummy

@Scrumbag
The No4 SMLE ACTION is strong enough for the 7.62x54 but the No1 mk111 isn't.
I've seen a beautiful No1 mk111 rebarreled to the 30/40 Krag and my gunsmith offered to do mine in 30/40 Krag improved for a good as he had the reamer for it. Different but I didn't do it.
Bob

 

[Scrumbag]

@Scrumbag
The No4 SMLE ACTION is strong enough for the 7.62x54 but the No1 mk111 isn't.
I've seen a beautiful No1 mk111 rebarreled to the 30/40 Krag and my gunsmith offered to do mine in 30/40 Krag improved for a good as he had the reamer for it. Different but I didn't do it.
Bob

I had not realised the differences in the action strength my friend. Something new learned today, thank you.

Scrummy

 

[Cervus elaphus]

@Wyatt Smith
Young Mr Smith the No4 is very easy to fix the headspace problem. The bolt heads are numbered 0 to 4witheach one giving about 3 thou increase each. Check the number bolt head you have and if it is less than a 4 i have spare bolt heads I can send you FREE.
I converted a No4 SMLE to 444 marlin and it was an awesome weapon as it can be loaded better than the marlin, you don't have to trim cases to load the 265 grain flex tips.
Another good conversion would be the 405 Winchester.
There is a little bit of a mod to get it to feed and eject but this can be done by anyone that can use a grinder,file and drill.
Bob
My No4 SMLE 444 marlin
View attachment 365574View attachment 365573

I know it's an old post but I do like your drop-point knife with the antler handle - I used to do this to all my skinning knives for a better grip than the usual wood.

 

[yumastepside]

I don't know how hard it is to get 303 brass where you are but if it is difficult, you could always re-cut the chamber with a 257 Roberts reamer and use 7x57 rimmed brass.
I have Enfields in both 257 Roberts and 7x57 in the rimmed version and no mods to feeding or anything.

Roger

 

[Scrumbag]

Question: Have you checked the headspace with a headspace or feeler gauge*?

The reason I ask is because case stretching in the Lee-Enfields is usually a chamber issue, not a headspace issue. Early on in WWI (1914 from what I understand), Lee-Enfields were supposedly intentionally chambered slightly oversized in the diameter and length dimensions owing to the quality of ammunition being hurriedly mass produced and the conditions in the trenches. I've found setting the barrel back and rechambering with a reamer with commercial specs usually helps greatly with case life, but even with military chambers the cases usually last several loadings.

Converting a Lee-Enfield to another chambering really isn't cost effective and functioning is oft times difficult to get right so I don't recommend it. The .303 is a very capable round. Especially, when loaded with South African CLAW 215 grain bonded core bullets.

*The way to check headspace with a feeler gauge is to take a new case (unfired) and chamber it. Now push forward on the bolt/cocking piece and see if a .017" feeler gauge will fit between the right bolt lug and right receiver locking lug. If it does, the headspace is beyond the military max (.074")(.067" is the NO-GO limit). If you can only get a .010" or less feeler inserted, it should be below the .067" NO-GO.

Some photos of a couple of Lee-Enfields I worked over into sporters (both No. 4 Mk I).

View attachment 390179View attachment 390180View attachment 390181View attachment 390183View attachment 390182

CB

Nice rifles there CB.