New SOLID from Swift Bullets

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Hi guys,
I also know I am glad to be home and I hate Las Vegas!!!

Wears on you quickly don't it? Thanks for the info, good thread.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Interesting to note that Swift have elected to omit a seating/crimping groove.

Good catch Paul, the outer metal looks like brass to me. Maybe they expect you to not crimp?

 

[matt85]

I'd be surprised if the CEB Raptor/Solid combo doesn't do that for you. Granted they're expensive, but load dev't was quick and easy for me.

lately ive had nothing but trouble with CEB bullets. first because they are brass the bullet length is an issue in some cartridges (416 RM). second i just cant seem to get good groups using them. i always seem to get random fliers regardless of powder charge. im currently working with CEB to figure out why i cant get them to shoot right.

Swift A-frames on the other hand have always been a reliable bullet for me, performing well in every rifle ive used them in. i just wish they werent so expensive... but they are worth the money in most cases.

-matt

 

[lwaters]

I checked out Swift website and was surprised to see they were made in the little town of Quinter, Kansas

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

lately ive had nothing but trouble with CEB bullets. first because they are brass the bullet length is an issue in some cartridges (416 RM). second i just cant seem to get good groups using them. i always seem to get random fliers regardless of powder charge. im currently working with CEB to figure out why i cant get them to shoot right.

Swift A-frames on the other hand have always been a reliable bullet for me, performing well in every rifle ive used them in. i just wish they werent so expensive... but they are worth the money in most cases.

-matt

I'll check with the CEB guru in SC and see if I can't get a load recommendation for you. Michael knows as much about shooting them as anyone I know. Commiserate with your flyer issue, easily the most frustrating thing to me in load development.

 

[IdaRam]

Quinter must be quite a booming metropolis!
I had the same thought you guys did about the lack of a groove to crimp into. Wish they had one...

 

[gizmo]

Well, provided its not higher than giraffe testies to buy a box I may hafta try and load some up for my 416 when they become available.

 

[PaulT]

I'll check with the CEB guru in SC and see if I can't get a load recommendation for you. Michael knows as much about shooting them as anyone I know. Commiserate with your flyer issue, easily the most frustrating thing to me in load development.

The flyer.
I think you'll find that the flyer is caused by slippage.
Studied carefully under a magnifying glass a recovered #13 solid will show that the projectile has covered a minimal distance down the rifling BEFORE being engaged and has therefore had its spin altered.

Unanswered questions were;
#why is it normally the third shot in every group
#why don't all of them slip and "fly"
Unknown.
It was also more common in some calibers as opposed to others.

Nonetheless it has since been rectified.

This issue was resolved and illiminated by amending the width of the top band.
If you are still getting flyers with your #13's it is from stock purchased 12-18 months ago or older.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

The flyer.
I think you'll find that the flyer is caused by slippage.
Studied carefully under a magnifying glass a recovered #13 solid will show that the projectile has covered a minimal distance down the rifling BEFORE being engaged and has therefore had its spin altered.

Unanswered questions were;
#why is it normally the third shot in every group
#why don't all of them slip and "fly"
Unknown.
It was also more common in some calibers as opposed to others.

Nonetheless it has since been rectified.

This issue was resolved and illiminated by amending the width of the top band.
If you are still getting flyers with your #13's it is from stock purchased 12-18 months ago or older.

Not me getting the flyers with the CEB's Paul. @matt85 is fighting it, not sure when he bought his supply. I used MM's load data in the .458 and had nothing but stunning accuracy both with the Raptors and Solids no matter what the powder charge was set at.

 

[matt85]

as not to go off topic, ill shoot you a PM.

-matt

 

[colorado]

and i was just wishing Swift would make a solid to match the POI with their softs!

now i need to buy a double rifle and have it regulated for Swift bullets... dang this forum is expensive!

-matt

I really like the A-Frames, I wish they had built their solid without the lead exposed at the base and a little more traditional shape. Just old fashioned I guess. I'd like a tip on their A-Frames and a solid base too!

 

[Velo Dog]

80" of penetration through wet newspaper.
I looked but cannot see where anyone mentioned at what velocity this test was conducted or even what weight this .375 diameter test bullet was.
It is widely accepted that cartridges such as the .378 Weatherby, to name but one, will out penetrate the .375 H&H when firing the same brand and weight of solid through the same test material, such as wet newspaper.
If those the velocity and bullet weight were posted here somewhere and I just missed them, I apologize and the error is mine.

PS:
Next time I book a wet newspaper hunt, I will consider using this bullet.
Seriously though, Swift's A-Frame is my absolute favorite premium/bonded core soft and no doubt this newest solid will be excellent as well.
Those designers at Swift really are .... well .... swift, pardon the pun but they really are brilliant bullet makers IMO.

 

[IdaRam]

After the fact I thought of a bunch of things I wish I would have discussed with them. I'm going to blame it on brain fade from 3 days in our booth Velocity to achieve that penetration is one such question. I do believe that is a 300 grain .375 bullet, but not 100% sure. The gentleman I spoke with said in all their testing the most penetration they achieved was with a .375 dia bullet.
I really like Swift bullets too, Velo Dog. They seem like good people as well. I am probably going to shoot 180 gr Scirocco's in my '06 and 300 gr A-Frame's in my .375 H&H this September.
I will have to speak with my PH and see if wet newspaper is on quota Pretty sure USFWS is considering an import ban

 

[Royal27]

Next time I book a wet newspaper hunt, I will consider using this bullet.

@matt85
I know how much you love Velo Dog quotes and wanted to make sure you didn't miss another classic!!! It isn't quote as good as the one in your signature, but it ain't bad either!!!

 

[matt85]

@matt85
I know how much you love Velo Dog quotes and wanted to make sure you didn't miss another classic!!! It isn't quote as good as the one in your signature, but it ain't bad either!!!

got a good chuckle out of it for sure!

still, if these bullets shoot to the same POI as the A-frames then i will certainly give them a try.

the lack of a crimp groove is a bit disapointing but i use a Lee factory crimp die and can usually get away with no crimp groove.

-matt

 

[spoonieduck]

I spoke with Brad from Swift Bullets at SHOT Show today and here is a pic of their new solid. Available any time now... IIRC he said 80 inches of very straight penetration in wet newspaper from the .375 dia.

View attachment 36427

It may be a great bullet but 80 inches is no great shakes for a 300 grain solid. Years ago I did experiments on the John F. Kennedy murder and used Oswald-type cartridges--130 grain, 6.5 caliber Carcanos--for the experiment. The muzzle velocity was less than 2,300 at the muzzle. The bullet was FMG but, remembering that the bullet that struck Kennedy's head exploded, I sectioned the bullet and discovered that the lead core is coated with a very thin platina of steel.

Anyway, I also was interested in penetration and lacking ballistic gel, I fired into very wet stacked newspaper. The penetration was 72 inches. If I put skin and bone in my system to simulate the actual murder, the penetration dropped to 25 inches [about the penetration distance of the first hit--Kennedy neck, Connally chest, Connally wrist, Connally thigh]. The drop in penetration was due primarily to bullet tumbling as I demonstrated by hanging a paper target between my 'systems'.

 

[PaulT]

Spoonie,
thanks for posting your testing results.

You have a p.m.

 

[IdaRam]

spoonieduck,
Very interesting test results, thanks for sharing. That must have been fun, I would enjoy doing testing like that.
Not certain of this, but I think they compress the newspaper, at least to some degree, in a fixture? I'm guessing how tightly compressed it is affects penetration? I don't have any frame of reference for what may be good or poor penetration in such a medium. Have you done any testing with bigger bore stuff? .375 and up? I'm really curious how different brands and designs stack up against each other. Any wisdom is appreciated

 

[matt85]

i suppose one pretty easy test for solids is to find a live tree thats around 12-24 inches wide and put a target behind it. draw a similar target on the tree directly in front of your target so the bulls eye lines up. shoot the target threw the tree from around 25 yards away. this test would give you an idea of how strait the bullet would travel when passing threw something that is both hard and wet.

-matt

 

[spoonieduck]

spoonieduck,
Very interesting test results, thanks for sharing. That must have been fun, I would enjoy doing testing like that.
Not certain of this, but I think they compress the newspaper, at least to some degree, in a fixture? I'm guessing how tightly compressed it is affects penetration? I don't have any frame of reference for what may be good or poor penetration in such a medium. Have you done any testing with bigger bore stuff? .375 and up? I'm really curious how different brands and designs stack up against each other. Any wisdom is appreciated

Nope. I was specifically interested in the Kennedy assassination. The wet newspaper is compressed by its own weight. I piled the wet newsprint up and confined it in wooden frames. I shot into the length of the stack.

I had trouble recovering the bullet because all but one bullet deflected out of my system [all before the 72 inches of penetration were achieved]. One bullet shot straight enough to recover and, like I said, the bullet traveled 72 inches and was completely non-deformed. The bullet is an FMG but that is a matter of definition. I believe the bullet was jacketed enough to comply with the Geneva Convention, not more. The cartridge itself is weird looking with one Hell of a lot of a very long bullet sticking out in front of the case. The thing actually looks unstable. It looks like it 'wants' to tumble. Shooting through air, however, it is accurate enough and I hit the moving [me in an oak tree 60 feet up and my target on the back of a pick up truck bumping along a rough pasture at 15 mph] Kennedy target 11 times out of 12 with 3 shot groups ranging from 6.8-7.2 seconds. Seven of my hits would have been instant kills.

I decided to do the experiment after seeing the cheesy Oliver Stone movie "JFK". I caught a major error, or 'lie' would be more accurate. The actors supposedly were told by the FBI, the CIA, the Warren Commission, the FDA whoever, how fast the three bullets were fired. I'm guessing now but let's say they said 7.5 seconds. One guy holds the bolt action rifle and the other holds a stop watch. "Go!" The 'rifleman' levers one in, 'click'. He levers another one in 'click'. He levers the last one in 'click' and jacks it out. "Stop! See", the watch holder exclaims, " 9.2 seconds. It's impossible to fire that rapidly." Problem is that no one was in the room to see or time Oswald. The shooting was time from the sound of the first shot, which obviously shortens the supposed time a lot. Unhappy, I decided to the whole thing myself, which I did: Rate of fire; accuracy; bullet penetration; bullet deformation; head deflection etc. etc. It was interesting but the results were pretty much as I expected. The only really big surprise was head deflection.

One problem with testing the true penetration of an FMG is potential tumbling. Tumbling obviously reduces penetration. Tumbling is also something that most hunters are in no position to determine. For example, I chopped a Hornady .375 300 grain solid out of an elephant's head. The bone is cancellous and 'soft'. The bullet almost penetrated the head but I did recover it and I'm guessing the penetration now at less than 30 inches. My guess is that the bullet did tumble. My guess is that many bullets of all types tumble especially when they pass through tissues of different densities. My thought is that almost no bullet manufacturers mention this unfortunate fact.

I proved it with the Carcano round by hanging a paper target between some of my penetration models containing skin and bone. Most of the holes were keyholes. Actually the Connally supposedly 'pristine' bullet shows strong evidence of keyholing. Innterrressstingglly, we've only been shown photos of that bullet taken from a certain angle. From that angle the bullet seems to be completely intact. From another angle, though, the base of the bullet is flattened and lead has oozed from the back of the bullet--from around the hard metal jacket. The rear half of the bullet hit something hard--probably Connally bone--while tumbling. The bullet isn't pristine, at all. Also, interestingly, my shots through targets containing skin and bone also tumbled but ALL the bullets through the Kennedy-Connally simulations were truly pristine. The Kennedy 'pristine bullet' was a lot more damaged than my bullets.

One the other hand, bullets fired into fresh cattle heads at 157 feet usually explode. Those that didn't explode were massively deformed.