New rifle.. what?

[Fastrig]

Would have to say that the vast majority of the rifles made today will outlast most people....the one to buy is the one that fits you the best, regardless of brand or price. I’m eyeing a Sauer 404 or Blaser R8 for a 375 H&H but keeping my eyes open for other options...just discovered that Christensen Arms is now chambering rifles in 375 H&H and will definitely be investigating those as I’ve had good luck with CA rifles in the past.

 

[Deerhunter1799]

Montana Rifle Company has at least 3 to choose from: Colorado Buck, DG African, and DG Alaskan. The African is a traditional wooden stock, the other 2 are synthetic. I'd go with MRC long before I'd go with a new Win 70.

Deerhunter 1799, why not purchase one of the pre 64(s) in 375 H&H. It might cost you a little more but maybe to you it would be worth it. I seriously doubt that most of the larger caliber guns offered on Gunbroker get 20 rounds a year fired through them. I recently bought a Win. Mod 70 that was made in 1948. One would have to look close to see if it was ever fired.

Dont live in US, thats why..

 

[BeeMaa]

Welcome to AH.

It would help to know what country you are in...
There are AH members all over the world who have firearms to sell.

Keep an eye on the classifieds here.
There are several very nice 375's on the market for a good price, that will provide years of service.
Even after shooting the rifle for several thousand rounds, if it needed a new barrel...it not that big a deal to get it done.

Buying used is a good way to get your feet wet with a solid mid-bore like the 375.
Next thing you know, a 416 will be on the menu.

 

[Deerhunter1799]

Would have to say that the vast majority of the rifles made today will outlast most people....the one to buy is the one that fits you the best, regardless of brand or price. I’m eyeing a Sauer 404 or Blaser R8 for a 375 H&H but keeping my eyes open for other options...just discovered that Christensen Arms is now chambering rifles in 375 H&H and will definitely be investigating those as I’ve had good luck with CA rifles in the past.

Used to have a finnbear in 375 H&H. I have fired at least 4000 rounds
through it. Dont know how many before me.. but it was rebarreld.

Love it, but parts are not easily available any more and its getting real worn..
Also dont care for new sakos.

The R8, actually i own one. But will sell it.. dont fit me.
The Sauer 404, yes like.. but its more then twice the cash over the m70.

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

Welcome to AH.
Good luck.

 

[sgt_zim]

Dont live in US, thats why..

Bummer.

Knowing your budget and where you live would be helpful.

It'll never win any beauty contests, by I have a Zastava M70 LR Mauser in 9.3x62. It shoots straight and seems solidly built. They do make that rifle in 375 H&H

 

[PARA45]

I don’t believe that any rifle today will last 10K shots fired through it without any parts wearing or breaking. That’s a lot of shooting for just one rifle, and parts wear & break from use. My opinion.

 

[One Day...]

Thanks for all the welcome!
I guess what im asking for is a reliable gun in 375 that one could not only take hunting but also shoot alot without the gun breaking down.
Of course i do understand barrel wear, but thats not really the question.
Another way to put it, is the modern model 70 going to withstand 10 k shots, wich i will have done in 10-15 years, diregarded the barrel wear.
Or is there a more suitable large caliber gun for that?

You of course realize Deerhunter1799, that shooting 10,000 rounds of .375 H&H in 10 years means shooting 20 rounds every weekend, every month, every year, for 10 years... I do not know what your shooting/hunting experience is, but I will say that this is an unlikely prospect. I will go on a limb here saying that some of us shoot 1,000 rounds with a given hunting rifle in 10 years, not 10,000, and that most of us likely shoot dangerous game (DG) rifles a whole lot less than that. I would wager that most DG rifles in the US see a box of year, or a box a semester through them, rather than a box a month, never mind a week...

I do not expect that anyone on AH can answer from personal experience the question whether rifle X, Y or Z will be able to withstand 10,000 rounds of .375 H&H, because I am going to speculate that not too many folks in the modern world have shot 10,000 rounds of .375 H&H in 10 years (or their entire life for that matter), and I also doubt that all that many people have done so even in the glory days of African hunting...

So, from a theoretical perspective, can a steel action of appropriate design, appropriately maintained, cleaned, lubricated, etc. shoot 10,000 high power rounds? Absolutely! Many military automatic weapons do that routinely, and much more, and I would think that many .45 pistols shot in IPSC, IDPA, USPSA events also do that routinely, and a bolt action rifle will likely have a longer lifetime than an automatic or semi automatic weapon.

If I were to seriously consider shooting 10,000 rounds of .375 H&H, I would rather:

• Choose a forged steel action (Win 70, CZ, etc.) rather than a cast action (Ruger, MRC, etc.). The risk of stress fractures is objectively lower.
• Choose a classic, two opposite front locking lugs action (any derivation of the Mauser system) rather than a design with much less metal involved in the lock-up. The risk of wearing two opposite locking lugs out of safe battery is about zero.
• Choose a rifle with no "pot metal" cast or "plastic" molded peripheral parts. These are the parts that will break one after the other with intensive use (see https://www.africahunting.com/threads/broken-win-m70-safety-leaver.53748/).

But, truth be told, I would not seriously consider shooting 10,000 rounds of .375 H&H. What I would do, would be getting the .375 H&H, shooting a few hundred rounds with it to be fully proficient, and I would spend the $10,000 to $20,000 the 10,000 rounds would cost, going to Africa to hunt a buffalo.

Volume training shooting off the sticks, I would do with a full size bolt action .22 lr (Winchester 52, Remington 541, CZ 452/457, Anschutz 54/64, Walther KKJ, etc.). You do not need to shoot full power rifles to train and practice. Actually, shooting form, breathing control, trigger control, etc. is better practiced with a .22 lr because there is no recoil to hide the mistakes. I personally shoot typically 5,000 .22 lr Thunderbolt/year off the sticks at 150 yards (the trajectory is very much arcing, but who cares!, it still rings the 6" plate), and probably a hundred or so actual hunting rounds/year in the months leading to hunting season or an upcoming safari.

 

[Deerhunter1799]

So, did you read my post about my sako in 375? Ive put about 4000 rounds in that one in 4,5 years..

Do you still call that unlikly? I just wanted to know if a m70 is quality enought for that. Not have to defend my shooting habits.

Also..i promise i shoot real good in larger calibers. Just so you know.

 

[One Day...]

Yes I still call this 'unlikely' Deerhunter1799, or if you somehow feel challenged by that word, which was not my intent, I am happy to say: 'uncommon' if you prefer. You may be an exception out there. No one is questioning your shooting habits or your shooting abilities, so you do not need to "defend" them, and no, I had not seen your post #24, but I have seen similar questions in the past, generally coming from people with little shooting experience...

This being said, you may have already answered your own question. If your Finnbear is wearing down after your own 4,000 rounds plus a few thousands before you, this is a strong indication of how any other rifle will wear. The L61R is a very strong action; the Finnbear was a very well made rifle; and Sako was using very good quality Bofors steel in those days. I would not expect a current Win 70 to wear better than a Finnbear. Actually, I would expect it to wear significantly faster than an older Finnbear...

 

[mark-hunter]

Always I think, I know something.... until I read posts from much more knowledgeable members like... @One Day... From who I always learn something!

However, i just wanted to bring another perspective.... Apart from action, a minor matter on barrel life:
Hard to say for sure, how long bbl will last on 375 H&H?

But it is accepted thing that calibers like 308 win, 223 rem will have the longest barrel life. (number of shots)
Some less common calibers will have very long life as well, like 8x57, or 9.3x62.
Then, as barrel wears out, the groups will widen.

The question is what is acuracy required? 1 moa, 2 moa?

What I have collected here and there:
for 308 win, 7000 shots, could be 10.000 if a bit of accuracy is lost.
for 223 rem, a bit more, 7-8000, on lower count up to 11.000 shots on higher count

Military standards will be generally more slack, I believe 2 moa is military acceptable standard.
Sportsmen/hunters will have more strict (1 moa, or a bit more), and benchrest standard far less then 0.5 moa, which means the shortest barrel life is determined by user.

Apart of caliber, a barrel rifiling may have something to do with longevity:
Hammer forged rifling - the longeest life
Button rifling - second
Cut rifling - third

Then, the barrel material, longevity on this to be checked, I am not sure which will be harder to wear out:
- chrome moly?
- stainless steel?

So, what about barrel life of 375 h&h?

Interestingly not much info on that.
It looks like nobody bothers even to think about it, possibly due to reasons mentioned by @One Day - small number of shots expected. Nobody is plinking with that one.

Training is done by 22lr, 223 rem or 308 win, from smallest up to maximum accepted recoil "plinking" standard on the range. which is 308. all of them very gentle on wear out.

When I was training for hunt in Namibia, where I hunted with 375 h&h - camp rifle, i did training at home:
- 22lr, hundreds of rounds, all positions, plus from stick (lost count)
- 308 win, fmj, less then 200
- 9.3x62, to get feeling with recoil, in various positions, 2 boxes (40 rounds) on target at 50m, 100m, 200 m.

As the caliber grow, the shots count declines. i am in agreement with One Day. Absolutely

Lets go back to barrel life:

I can compare 375 to other similar long life calibers:
375 H&H- pressure cip, 62.366 PSI
9.3x62 - pressure cip 56.565 PSI
308 win - pressure 60,191 psi
223 rem - pressure cip 55.000 psi
etc
etc
.....
Caliber Vcm3 Q cm2 K koef. N umber of shots expected:
22 Hornet 0,955 0,250 3,8 14000
7,62x39 2,305 0,480 4,8 13000
223 Rem. 1,870 0,250 7,5 10500
9,3x62 5,065 0,663 7,6 10500
308 Win 3,638 0,475 7,7 10000
8x57JS 4,095 0,518 7,9 10000
6,5x47 Lapua 3,118 0,346 9,0 7000
30-06 Spr. 4,428 0,475 9,3 5000
6mm BR Norma 2.795 0,295 9,5 3500
8x68S 5,585 0,518 10,8 2500
6,5x55 3,728 0,344 10,8 2500
7x64 4,480 0,403 11,1 2200
22-250 Rem. 2.824 0,250 11,3 2000
243 Win. 3,508 0,293 12,0 1400
338 Lapua mag. 7,015 0,569 12,3 1300
6,5x284 Norma 4,285 0,347 12,4 1300
300 Win. mag 5,978 0,475 12,6 1200
7 Rem. mag. 5,325 0,404 13,2 1000
6x62 Freres 4,285 0,293 14,6 900
7x66 SE v H. 6,038 0,405 14,6 800
6,5x68 5,585 0,346 16,1 500

Bottom line, I would compare 375 H&H with 9.3x62, the closest on this list by power / bore size / pressure which gives more then 10.000 rounds of barrel life.

The numbers - where given by a balistic expert in my country, allegedly by true testing of each caliber. (I wonder what was the cost of such test...)
And my guess is the test was to be within hunting standard of accuracy... 1-2 moa.

There is no scientific proof on all this, but my internet search came with similar numbers of shots per caliber.
It corresponds to general public experience and wisdom.
I also think that before 10k shots are fired, something else will pop up... like springs to replace, firing pin, maybe, stock crack maybe... etc.

 

[bruce moulds]

Working on custom loads for a buddy's TC Encore. Holy snikeys, he's got a light trigger on that thing. I'm used to about 2-3 ounces on my Savage 10 target rifle. REALLY used to it, works for me out to 1000 yards. When I'm proofing loads for his rifle, for heaven's sake, it takes me about 3 rds to get accustomed to his trigger. Nice rifle, but I'd never go that light for my own rifle. Doesn't take much more than a touch to set that thing off. I like a little weight and a little travel. There's neither on his rifle.

a good argument for dry firing,
bruce.

 

[BeeMaa]

If you bought a Blaser R8, Merkel Helix, Mauser M03 or other interchangable barrel rifle...you'd be set.
You could just order another barrel when the groups start to spread, no gunsmithing needed.
Plus all of these are are cold hammer forged barrels and should last longer than other barrels.
Although at 10K rounds, I'm sure you will see failures elsewhere.
Good luck.

 

[TNDave]

A lot of good information passed along! I always learn something new every time I’m on here.

Welcome to AH @Deerhunter1799. If your not married to the 375 H&H have you considered a 375 Ruger? Several on here have them including myself and I believe there are a few on the classifieds.

 

[bruce moulds]

If you bought a Blaser R8, Merkel Helix, Mauser M03 or other interchangable barrel rifle...you'd be set.
All of these are are also cold hammer forged barrels and should last longer than other barrels.
Plus you could just order another barrel when the groups start to spread, no gunsmithing needed.
Although at 10K rounds, I'm sure you will see failures elsewhere.
Good luck.

the old myth, promoted by forged barrel makers still persists.
truth is heat and flame, the things that actually wear out barrels, erode forged just as fast as cut or any other form of barrel.
wear from bullet friction is irrelevant compared to this.
bruce.

 

[WAB]

the old myth, promoted by forged barrel makers still persists.
truth is heat and flame, the things that actually wear out barrels, erode forged just as fast as cut or any other form of barrel.
wear from bullet friction is irrelevant compared to this.
bruce.

I’ve been playing with some polygonally rifled barrels. They clean much more quickly due to reduced fouling. I wonder if the reduced friction will result in longer life.

 

[CBH Australia]

the old myth, promoted by forged barrel makers still persists.
truth is heat and flame, the things that actually wear out barrels, erode forged just as fast as cut or any other form of barrel.
wear from bullet friction is irrelevant compared to this.
bruce.

That’s what I heard!
I also read when someone asked a gunsmith what is the “Usable “ life of a barrel he said “Ohh, about a few seconds”

1.5#? Mighty light for a hunting rifle don't ya think? Asking for premature ignition.

No!

 

[sestoppelman]

That’s what I heard!
I also read when someone asked a gunsmith what is the “Usable “ life of a barrel he said “Ohh, about a few seconds”


No!

No what?!

 

[mark-hunter]

the old myth, promoted by forged barrel makers still persists.

There is a lot myths in terminal, and internal ballistic. Only external ballistic is almost provable pure mathematics.

However, on this myth I tend to believe.

In the times when practically all barrels have been done by cut rifling: era ww-1:

In the book "Sniping in France", author Hesket-Prichard claims that acceptable bbl life for .303 british enfield snipers was up to 2.000 shots to keep accuracy, which is mild, very mild caliber for rifle.

He was involved in training dozens shooters. Had a good overview on rifle/shooter performance

For today standard it would be ridiculous, 2k shots for .303.

(button rifling was only pattended 1929 by Lothar Walther, and after ww2, in US by Remington. Hammer forging was invented 1939, production started 1942 for exchanable barrel of mg42, in ww2 - is main production today for european makers).
So untill 1929 all barrels have been cut rifled.

i also have to note, that modern barrel is made of chrome-moly steel, should be tougher then bbl steel of that time, but regardless. Give it a double, 4k, it is still low count for that caliber (303).

I attached two schemes: hammer forged, and cutting - metal layers structure of material.

In general, Forging, cutting, moulding as various metal forming techniques - give different metal endurance... I think it is common knowledge.

I dont have to be right, but at least it is something to think about.

On subject of accuracy, bench rest shooters have proven, that hammer forging is THE last for absolute accuracy.
Generally it will be:
- Cut rifling - best
- button rifling - close next to it
- hammer forging

There is something about barrel making, which affects overall bbl performance, I dont see why longevity of barrel will be different. Accuracy is proven, by thousands od BR shooters. So, in this respect no issues. Its fact.

On longevity, subject may be open, as no scientific proof on anything. Depends on loads, maintenance, and heating of barrel at least. But personally I tend to believe, it has longer life being hammer forged.

 

[sestoppelman]

Popcorn anyone?