New lion regulations USFWS

[BWH]

I'd be pissed if agency in Africa, Russia, China or wherever, took it upon themselves put an animal (i.e. Whitetail) on an endangered list. Why/how can they or should they govern that way? I'm asking.... I would like to know. I understand that USA has stricter limits on things like Tuna, to protect species. But isn't this stepping over their jurisdiction? The tuna is in our waters.... The lions are not on our land.

 

[Royal27]

I'd be pissed if agency in Africa, Russia, China or wherever, took it upon themselves put an animal (i.e. Whitetail) on an endangered list. Why/how can they or should they govern that way? I'm asking.... I would like to know. I understand that USA has stricter limits on things like Tuna, to protect species. But isn't this stepping over their jurisdiction? The tuna is in our waters.... The lions are not on our land.

IMO. Arrogance plain and simple. We think we know better than anyone else in the world, with everything, not just wildlife. We have to help the poor unfortunate folks.... Drives me nuts.

 

[BRICKBURN]

I'd be pissed if agency in Africa, Russia, China or wherever, took it upon themselves put an animal (i.e. Whitetail) on an endangered list. Why/how can they or should they govern that way? I'm asking.... I would like to know. I understand that USA has stricter limits on things like Tuna, to protect species. But isn't this stepping over their jurisdiction? The tuna is in our waters.... The lions are not on our land.

They are just going after their own citizens. I can go hunt Lions because that muppet is just going after you guys in the USA.

 

[Wheels]

Lion Hunting Specials on now until January 22, 2016
Get them while they are hot!

Wonder if USFW will issue any of those import permits. My guess, probably not. Especially since they are the ones making the rules and they haven't made any yet.

The RSA lion industry may have just lost 75%+ of the demand. Will more than a handful of breeders be left going into 2017?

Did RSA lions just become a liability instead of an asset for the owners?

2016, the year of the slaughter.

 

[BRICKBURN]

......................
Did RSA lions just become a liability instead of an asset for the owners?

2016, the year of the slaughter.

I wonder if the captive bred Lions will be treated differently.

 

[Royal27]

I wonder if the captive bred Lions will be treated differently.

Even though they should be my bet would be they will be treated the same. This is about shutting it all down I think...

 

[Wheels]

I wonder if the captive bred Lions will be treated differently.

I can't envision the daisy chain of USFW bureaucrats, Dan Ashe, Sally Jewell, POTUS allowing an import permit for captive bred lions. April 4 was the magic day for Zim, Tan elephants. It sounds like Jan 22 is the magic day for lions. Does anyone think USFW will approve the import permit after that date?

 

[Royal27]

Nope

 

[LivingTheDream]

Wonder if USFW will issue any of those import permits. My guess, probably not. Especially since they are the ones making the rules and they haven't made any yet.

The RSA lion industry may have just lost 75%+ of the demand. Will more than a handful of breeders be left going into 2017?

Did RSA lions just become a liability instead of an asset for the owners?

2016, the year of the slaughter.

This is my biggest concern is that hundreds and possibly thousands of lions are going to be slaughtered. Unless there becomes a market for non exportable captive breed lions...not sure what those hunts will sell for. But also given the political winds not sure what demand will be.

 

[Philip Glass]

So does anyone on this forum know exactly what is going to happen going forward? SCI's press release makes it look like all lion hunting this year is a no go. Will they issue permits or just sit on it and say they need more information? If anyone knows for certain how this will work I need to know. What a mess! Big 5 plans ruined right when I became able to pursue them.
Regards,
Philip

 

[Royal27]

So does anyone on this forum know exactly what is going to happen going forward? SCI's press release makes it look like all lion hunting this year is a no go. Will they issue permits or just sit on it and say they need more information? If anyone knows for certain how this will work I need to know. What a mess! Big 5 plans ruined right when I became able to pursue them.
Regards,
Philip

No one knows.... just educated guesses based on past experience.

Time to hunt anyway and save money on taxidermy!

 

[Philip Glass]

Royal
That's a tough one considering how much the lion costs. Just about any other trophy I'd say yes just go hunt and not worry with bringing it home. I suppose I have a really good leopard hunt ahead of me at best.
Philip

 

[Wheels]

So does anyone on this forum know exactly what is going to happen going forward?

I don't think anyone here knows.

I doubt the rank and file at USFW even know.

I do imagine that Dan Ashe, Sally Jewell and the current administration know what they want to happen. Putting the burden of proof on the hunter and the wildlife department of the originating country, makes it easy to reject.

What countries have the ability to justify a lion hunt and have credibility with USFW? Namibia and South Africa with their free range lions (not raised), comes to mind. Is there any other country where the USFW will allow permits for import? Possibly Tanzania and Zambia. Is it probable? Is it worth $80,000-$120,000 to find out?

Realize my thoughts are free and not worth your $.02.

 

[enysse]

The only way we will get this fixed is a government change in the USA. You would need a President that is hunter friendly and change the direction the way the USFW does things. Look at the wolf situation, polar bear dilemma and now Africa hunting. Really the President could change everything with the right director (who could put a positive spin on hunting and conservation). I just stating this, I'm not sure it will ever happen......to have a President advocating for hunters again.

 

[Wheels]

I don't think anyone here knows.

I doubt the rank and file at USFW even know.

I do imagine that Dan Ashe, Sally Jewell and the current administration know what they want to happen. Putting the burden of proof on the hunter and the wildlife department of the originating country, makes it easy to reject.

What countries have the ability to justify a lion hunt and have credibility with USFW? Namibia and South Africa with their free range lions (not raised), comes to mind. Is there any other country where the USFW will allow permits for import? Possibly Tanzania and Zambia. Is it probable? Is it worth $80,000-$120,000 to find out?

Realize my thoughts are free and not worth your $.02.

Just had this come to mind. BVC lions should be able to meet the requirements and Save lions possibly. Not sure if USFW cares enough about Zimbabwe to issue a permit for anything coming out of that country however.

 

[UNT2007]

The scuttlebutt I have been reading on other hunting forums is that Chelsea Clinton and the Clinton Foundation lobbied Obama hard for this. As well as the recent ivory ban. So another excellent reason to vote against her mother next November, PAYBACK!

 

[Wheels]

http://www.fws.gov/endangered/what-we-do/pdf/20151217_fR_lion.pdf

I read or skimmed all 229 pages of this new regulation we are dealing with. (This does not mean I am competent enough to understand it. I didn't read any of the documented source material in the report. It is Christmas Eve after all.) I am not qualified to give any opinion other than some generalized redneck thoughts.


Redneck thought 1.

Regarding free range lion. There is a good chance that permits will not be issued for import into the USA going forward from any country. USFW has put the onus on the hunter/originating country to prove. Will the USFW ever be satisfied?


Redneck thought 2.

Regarding raised lion. Pages 87-89 deal with this. These pages make it seem like raised lions are excluded from the regulations.

Reading question 47 in the question / answer section on page 217 makes it seem like permits will be required after January 22. Which really muddies the water but makes it seem like USFW will have to give an import permit. Will they issue an import permit? Did USFW let their real intentions slip in their response to this question?



(47) Comment: One commenter stated that the Service should only apply a permitting requirement on lions taken after the listing and 4(d) rule go into effect.






Our Response: For lions held in captivity or a controlled environment on the date of the listing under the Act, no import permit will be required, if the lion meets all the requirements to be considered "pre-Act" (Section 9(b)(1) of the Act). Accordingly, lions hunted after the listing would require permits, and those hunters who have booked hunts, but have not yet hunted a lion, would require a U.S. import permit prior to importation.

 

[sestoppelman]

Unlike most of you guys here in the states, I don't hunt here anymore, haven't for years. I just get my hunt fix every few years by going to Africa. Here then is a thought that those of you who do hunt stateside could to that would hit USFWS where it hurts the most. In THEIR pocketbook! OK, I know this goes nowhere but here it is anyway. STOP hunting stateside! Period! And tell USFWS why you are no longer going to hunt here. If enough guys did this you might actually see some action, otherwise its just a lot of fingers pointing skyward with little effect. It would take a concerted effort by preferably SCI and DSC making it public and known to all of Govt, not just USFWS. Loss of revenue always gets attention. Again, probably will never happen but if a gigantic campaign was waged thru SCI etc., and hunters stopped spending their dollars at home, they might listen. Having said all that, yeah, I know. Only a small percentage of American hunters know about or give a rats butt about Africa's lions one way or the other and they for damned sure aren't going to pass up sniping another whitetail from a heated, deer stand feedlot with a scope sighted whatever to take part in this, so probably a lost cause. That last is a bit gratuitous I know but it seems like every hunt show on the tube features that very type of killing, and don't call it hunting because it isn't. Its just harvesting. Just my usual two cents worth.

 

[Hank2211]

Unlike most of you guys here in the states, I don't hunt here anymore, haven't for years. I just get my hunt fix every few years by going to Africa. Here then is a thought that those of you who do hunt stateside could to that would hit USFWS where it hurts the most. In THEIR pocketbook! OK, I know this goes nowhere but here it is anyway. STOP hunting stateside! Period! And tell USFWS why you are no longer going to hunt here. If enough guys did this you might actually see some action, otherwise its just a lot of fingers pointing skyward with little effect. It would take a concerted effort by preferably SCI and DSC making it public and known to all of Govt, not just USFWS. Loss of revenue always gets attention. Again, probably will never happen but if a gigantic campaign was waged thru SCI etc., and hunters stopped spending their dollars at home, they might listen. Having said all that, yeah, I know. Only a small percentage of American hunters know about or give a rats butt about Africa's lions one way or the other and they for damned sure aren't going to pass up sniping another whitetail from a heated, deer stand feedlot with a scope sighted whatever to take part in this, so probably a lost cause. That last is a bit gratuitous I know but it seems like every hunt show on the tube features that very type of killing, and don't call it hunting because it isn't. Its just harvesting. Just my usual two cents worth.

I agree this is unrealistic, but could you imagine?

Not only would revenues across states and the federal government be down markedly, but there would be such a surplus of ungulates that the pressure for a solution to the problems caused by these animals would become intense. The government would have to say - hunting is the only way to control these populations, but we've so pissed off hunters that they aren't interested . . .

The public would see - with their own eyes and the grills of their own cars - the consequences of zero hunting.

If only . . .

 

[BRICKBURN]

............

The public would see - with their own eyes and the grills of their own cars - the consequences of zero hunting.

If only . . .

It sure worked in Strathcona County.
Fish & Wildlife was called into a community meeting and asked to "do something" about all the deer.
The motive was the large number of MVA collisions with deer.

The people were asked how many let people hunt the deer. You can guess the answer.
They were told hunting was the solution.

Your choice and accept the consequences.