New(er) cartridges for Plains Game?

[Fastrig]

I get it . . . that's why I caveat-ed with "could". My point was that the 220gr ELDX factory loads deliver almost 4,000ft-lb of energy which should quite easily dispatch of a 150lb cat.

Those restrictions on leopards sound a bit retarded to me. A 300 win mag is more than enough to drop a big mountain lion in its tracks at 200 yard, so it’s more than enough to do the same thing to a leopard from a blind/bait hunt. Hell, a 308 or a 30-06 with a good 180 grain round would be sufficient for a cat that size. 300 win mag might be marginal on a lion or tiger (though it would probably be fine with a heavy grain, quality bullet), but any of the 338’s would get that job done. If it will drop a grizzly or coastal brown, it will drop a lion. Those heavier calibers might have been necessary before the ballistic advances of the last 30-40 years, but with the rounds available today in the 7mm and 30 caliber arenas, much of that is overkill, IMO. Would think a 338 with today’s ammo would make the perfect big cat gun....heck, I’d use my 338 Federal, low recoil, fast follow up acquisition, and a heavy punch, especially at the ranges these cats are shot at.

 

[Fastrig]

Here is a good overview of the modern Barnes tipped bullets....that 338 caliber, 225 grain TTSX would be a beast on bears and cats. The 9.3, 250 grain would be fantastic in my 9.3x62. Either of these would be great for the larger PG as well....might have to start hand loading

https://www.barnesbullets.com/bullets/ttsx/

 

[Major Khan]

I am personally always open towards the idea of trying out new calibres . During the time of my career as a professional shikaree ( 1961 - 1970 ) ... I watched the emergence of the .300 Winchester magnum and the 7 mm Remington magnum .

During the time of my career ... These calibres were treated , as if they were the " New Kids On The Block " . No client above 30 years if age ... Even wanted any thing to do with them .

But then , a crowd DID decide to try an out ... And look where they are today . Both the 7 mm Remington magnum and ( To a greater extent ) the .300 Winchester magnum have now become classics .

I am certain that our fore fathers felt similarly about countless calibres ... Which we consider classics , today . For instance , when Colonel Jefferson Spydell designed the .375 Holland & Holland magnum for Holland & Holland ... No shikaree in India wanted to try it out , against royal Bengal tigers . 25 years later , after Winchester released their Model 70 and offered a variant chambered in .375 Holland & Holland magnum ... The cartridge began to work it's way in to becoming the universal safari / shikar standard .


That said , I still personally find the 6.5 Creed Moor to be too much of a " Hipster Calibre " .

 

[BeeMaa]

I am personally always open towards the idea of trying out new calibres . During the time of my career as a professional shikaree ( 1961 - 1970 ) ... I watched the emergence of the .300 Winchester magnum and the 7 mm Remington magnum .

During the time of my career ... These calibres were treated , as if they were the " New Kids On The Block " . No client above 30 years if age ... Even wanted any thing to do with them .

But then , a crowd DID decide to try an out ... And look where they are today . Both the 7 mm Remington magnum and ( To a greater extent ) the .300 Winchester magnum have now become classics .

I am certain that our fore fathers felt similarly about countless calibres ... Which we consider classics , today . For instance , when Colonel Jefferson Spydell designed the .375 Holland & Holland magnum for Holland & Holland ... No shikaree in India wanted to try it out , against royal Bengal tigers . 25 years later , after Winchester released their Model 70 and offered a variant chambered in .375 Holland & Holland magnum ... The cartridge began to work it's way in to becoming the universal safari / shikar standard .


That said , I still personally find the 6.5 Creed Moor to be too much of a " Hipster Calibre " .

I agree with you Major on it being very much age related.
I would have been one of the guys showing up to deer camp with a 300WM.
While all the old timers would roll their eyes because they had 30-06's or even a 30-30.

The fact of the matter is, for my intended use, I don't really NEED 300WM power.
I could easily live with a 30-06 for taking PG out to 300 yards.
But I would not listen to the older generation of hunter.
My ears were tuned to the gun writers telling tales of how good the 300WM was...etc.

Now there is YouTube, IG, FB and any other form of social media to influence the next generation.
I'm just glad they are shooting and enjoying the outdoors, no matter what caliber they use.
I'll be a fuddy-duddy with a 6.5x55 next to a hipster with a 6.5CM and just smile.
IMO, there is very little new under the sun but it has much to do with my point of view...and also very much my age.

We should all enjoy watching the next generation of shooters shape the sport we all love.

 

[Major Khan]

I agree with you Major on it being very much age related.
I would have been one of the guys showing up to deer camp with a 300WM.
While all the old timers would roll their eyes because they had 30-06's or even a 30-30.

The fact of the matter is, for my intended use, I don't really NEED 300WM power.
I could easily live with a 30-06 for taking PG out to 300 yards.
But I would not listen to the older generation of hunter.
My ears were tuned to the gun writers telling tales of how good the 300WM was...etc.

Now there is YouTube, IG, FB and any other form of social media to influence the next generation.
I'm just glad they are shooting and enjoying the outdoors, no matter what caliber they use.
I'll be a fuddy-duddy with a 6.5x55 next to a hipster with a 6.5CM and just smile.
IMO, there is very little new under the sun but it has much to do with my point of view...and also very much my age.

We should all enjoy watching the next generation of shooters shape the sport we all love.

I 100 % agree with you , Bee Maa . The .300 Winchester magnum ( When it was 1st introduced ) immediately received ( Well deserved ) recognition for being an extremely flat shooting calibre ... With an exceptionally high amount of reach . It immediately became popular amongst all of my younger American clients ...Especially for hill shooting .

And again , I also agree with you ... In regards to the 2nd part . In today’s climate , having a young person shoot with a 6.5 Creed Moor ... Is certainly better than them , NOT shooting at all .

 

[BeeMaa]

I 100 % agree with you , Bee Maa . The .300 Winchester magnum ( When it was 1st introduced ) immediately received ( Well deserved ) recognition for being an extremely flat shooting calibre ... With an exceptionally high amount of reach . It immediately became popular amongst all of my younger American clients ...Especially for hill shooting .

And again , I also agree with you ... In regards to the 2nd part . In today’s climate , having a young person shoot with a 6.5 Creed Moor ... Is certainly better than them , NOT shooting at all .

It's funny how we (now the older generation) talk about ubiquity...
How does a cartridge become ubiquitous...lots of people shoot it.
Some of these newer cartridges will catch fire and most assuredly...some will die.

Case in point is the 375RUGER and 416RUGER, although not exactly PG calibers.
Both great cartridges introduced in the early 2000's and yet the 375 is doing much better.
It may one day supplant the 375H&H as king of the 375's in the next 100 years.
I know...blasphemy from someone my age, but it very well could happen.
Especially considering the cost involved in making an action to house the H&H.

Everything takes time, nothing happens overnight.
And nothing happens if it doesn't start somewhere...
Like the 300WM in 1963 or the 300PRC in 2018.

Soon enough this generation will be saying...
"I was shooting a 6.5CM before you were born sonny"

 

[Hogpatrol]

My 2¢, Take whatever floats your boat. There's a myriad of new cartridges that will do the job on any plains game and a few DG. The bigger ones are more for killing at long ranges. As far as ammo getting lost, if your rifle is a common one, is the outfitter's or store bought ammo you find in Africa going to do the same as your stateside stuff?

Edit: The 7mmRM is being crushed by the 28 Nosler. Look at who is making them available as a factory round. I know gunsmiths that have made hundreds of them, mostly for Western hunters.
Same goes for the 300WM. It's being pushed aside by the 30 and 33 Nosler and the 300 PRC. The .260 Remington is another cadaver. The 6.5 CM took it's place. Unlike the 7 and 300, these new cartridges can use the heavy for caliber bullets available today. Another advantage is these cartridges don't need the extra long actions and can be used in a standard long action.

 

[BeeMaa]

Same goes for the 300WM. It's being pushed aside by the 30 and 33 Nosler and the 300 PRC. The .260 Remington is another cadaver. The 6.5 CM took it's place. Unlike the 7 and 300, these new cartridges can use the heavy for caliber bullets available today. Another advantage is these cartridges don't need the extra long actions and can be used in a standard long action.

Exactly my point about the COAL and actions to house them.
Just in the past few years we've seen several manufactures stop producing the "safari" length actions.
I could very well have several (what some may consider) "dinosaurs" in my vault in the next 20 years.
And I'm OK with that.
If it furthers the technology of our sport, I'm all for progress.

As for old dogs and new tricks...the saying still applies.
It's what camp fire talks are made of and I love it.

 

[YancyW]

I wasn't hooked on the 6.5 CM, until I started shooting them. The first 6.5 I bought was a Cooper M52 in 6.5x284, once I dialed in a round, it was very accurate, but it was a bitch getting it worked out. Next one was a Seekins Bravo in 6.5 CM, I bought a bunch of very cheap, 40 cents a round Sellier & Bellot, to break everything in. It shoots it way under sub-moa and also every other factory ammo I put in it. I now have two rifles in 6.5 CM and both of them shoot anything I feed them incredibly well.

I also have a 6.5 PRC, which would have killed the 6.5CM had it come out first, but that's likely not an accident.

 

[Fastrig]

I wasn't hooked on the 6.5 CM, until I started shooting them. The first 6.5 I bought was a Cooper M52 in 6.5x284, once I dialed in a round, it was very accurate, but it was a bitch getting it worked out. Next one was a Seekins Bravo in 6.5 CM, I bought a bunch of very cheap, 40 cents a round Sellier & Bellot, to break everything in. It shoots it way under sub-moa and also every other factory ammo I put in it. I now have two rifles in 6.5 CM and both of them shoot anything I feed them incredibly well.

I also have a 6.5 PRC, which would have killed the 6.5CM had it come out first, but that's likely not an accident.

The 6.5 CM chambering in an AR 10 rifle is a hoot to shoot. No recoil at all compared to the 308 win, not that a 308 has that much really. You can blow through a 2o mag with extremely tight groupings and it doesn’t break the bank on ammo costs. Have had really good luck with the Sellier & Bellot ammo across multiple calibers...it’s very good ammo IMO, especially for the price. Not sure how it would do on bigger game, but wouldn’t hesitate to use it on white tails and hogs.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

No one goes to Africa hunting without being driven by some form of Romanticism or the desire for a Traditional experience. I myself have chosen and used a 9.3x62 for one such trip to fulfill these desires.

But times change and so do options. I've been called a FUDD on a few firearms sites but this post may ruin that.

I've always been a fan of the .243W as a 2nd or 'camp gun' in Africa. It can take so many of the smaller plains game with low recoil and long range. When the 6ARC was released yesterday I took notice. Here was a similar round that would nicely make up a light and handy stalking rifle in a custom Mini Howa or CZ527. Perfectly suited to the smaller or junior hunter and for the surgical shooter who can place his shots.

I then thought about something for the general run-of-the mill Plains game most of us can afford. The .300 PRC came to mind. A massive choice of projectiles for use in any biome, more terminal energy than a standard length 300 magnum, flat shooting and less wind drift.

What think you ?

@Code4
What about the 30 Nosler.
Wonder how it would go necked up to 35 or 9.3, the mind boggles.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hello Code4,

I have noticed that some folks go to Africa with nothing more than a tape measure / record book quest .... tradition be damned.
One example is from a story that a South African PH related to me, as follows:
This particular character, brought to the Limpopo District (thick bush/short range shooting conditions) a carbon fiber wrapped 26” barrel, Remington 700 actioned, thumbhole plastic stocked, super-galactic .3oo Ultra Magnum caliber rifle, loaded with 165 grain bullets, leaving the muzzle at 10-million feet per second.

He had attached to this Star Trek mess, a huge, variable power, battery enhanced reticule, telescope, in extra-high rings.
The scope was adjustable, clear up to 24 power.
He reportedly told the PH that he would not be interested in shooting anything less than “gold medal” animals.
My bet is that African safari tradition, romance and / or nostalgia, were very far from his mind.

Also, no offense intended but, I never heard of the cartridges you mention.
All that said, I freely admit to being a grumpy old man, living in the past, etc.

Kind Regards,
Velo Dog.

@Velo Dog
You, myself and a few others must be tarred with the same brush. New fangled wizzbangs and scopes that can see a flea on a gnats arse at 900 yards don't even raise an eyebrow. Maybe gives us a bit of a giggle.
We stick with the old boring time proven, just like the grumpy old farts that use them.
The old WORKS why change it.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I wasn't hooked on the 6.5 CM, until I started shooting them. The first 6.5 I bought was a Cooper M52 in 6.5x284, once I dialed in a round, it was very accurate, but it was a bitch getting it worked out. Next one was a Seekins Bravo in 6.5 CM, I bought a bunch of very cheap, 40 cents a round Sellier & Bellot, to break everything in. It shoots it way under sub-moa and also every other factory ammo I put in it. I now have two rifles in 6.5 CM and both of them shoot anything I feed them incredibly well.

I also have a 6.5 PRC, which would have killed the 6.5CM had it come out first, but that's likely not an accident.

@YancyW
One question. Are these new 6.5s doing anything different to game at sane hunting ranges that the 6.5x55s and the 264 win mag won't do?.
Call me an old fuddy duddy but the old still does the job and has been doing so for a long time.
To me one thing all these new 6.5s have been great at giving the OLD 264 win mag a new lease on life.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Those restrictions on leopards sound a bit retarded to me. A 300 win mag is more than enough to drop a big mountain lion in its tracks at 200 yard, so it’s more than enough to do the same thing to a leopard from a blind/bait hunt. Hell, a 308 or a 30-06 with a good 180 grain round would be sufficient for a cat that size. 300 win mag might be marginal on a lion or tiger (though it would probably be fine with a heavy grain, quality bullet), but any of the 338’s would get that job done. If it will drop a grizzly or coastal brown, it will drop a lion. Those heavier calibers might have been necessary before the ballistic advances of the last 30-40 years, but with the rounds available today in the 7mm and 30 caliber arenas, much of that is overkill, IMO. Would think a 338 with today’s ammo would make the perfect big cat gun....heck, I’d use my 338 Federal, low recoil, fast follow up acquisition, and a heavy punch, especially at the ranges these cats are shot at.

@Fastrig
My PH/ property owner drops leopard with his 25 ought six. Doesn't make it a leopard rifle.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I 100 % agree with you , Bee Maa . The .300 Winchester magnum ( When it was 1st introduced ) immediately received ( Well deserved ) recognition for being an extremely flat shooting calibre ... With an exceptionally high amount of reach . It immediately became popular amongst all of my younger American clients ...Especially for hill shooting .

And again , I also agree with you ... In regards to the 2nd part . In today’s climate , having a young person shoot with a 6.5 Creed Moor ... Is certainly better than them , NOT shooting at all .

Friend Ponton
I agree with you better to have them shooting than not

I agree with you Major on it being very much age related.
I would have been one of the guys showing up to deer camp with a 300WM.
While all the old timers would roll their eyes because they had 30-06's or even a 30-30.

The fact of the matter is, for my intended use, I don't really NEED 300WM power.
I could easily live with a 30-06 for taking PG out to 300 yards.
But I would not listen to the older generation of hunter.
My ears were tuned to the gun writers telling tales of how good the 300WM was...etc.

Now there is YouTube, IG, FB and any other form of social media to influence the next generation.
I'm just glad they are shooting and enjoying the outdoors, no matter what caliber they use.
I'll be a fuddy-duddy with a 6.5x55 next to a hipster with a 6.5CM and just smile.
IMO, there is very little new under the sun but it has much to do with my point of view...and also very much my age.

We should all enjoy watching the next generation of shooters shape the sport we all love.

BeeMaa
When I started shooting in Australia the 303 was regarded a to much gun and the 06 was for buffalo along with the 303.
Some even regarded the 270/303 as to big for even sambar deer but the 25/303 was the ideal rifle for everything short of buffalo. I didn't come across things like the 243, 270 or the magnum until the late 70s. Myself and my mates just couldn't afford them or justify such BIG guns.
How times have changed.

 

[Tra3]

I wonder, if we took the marketing aspect out of the gun buying decision what would we all be shooting? I suspect we would all be using very similar calibers.
Alas, gun writers and marketing geniuses must only pique our curiosity and a new rifle in a new caliber becomes a needed item. Since hunting is a hobby for most of us, testing new equipment is part of the fun, even though we know it isn’t necessary.

 

[Major Khan]

It's funny how we (now the older generation) talk about ubiquity...
How does a cartridge become ubiquitous...lots of people shoot it.
Some of these newer cartridges will catch fire and most assuredly...some will die.

Case in point is the 375RUGER and 416RUGER, although not exactly PG calibers.
Both great cartridges introduced in the early 2000's and yet the 375 is doing much better.
It may one day supplant the 375H&H as king of the 375's in the next 100 years.
I know...blasphemy from someone my age, but it very well could happen.
Especially considering the cost involved in making an action to house the H&H.

Everything takes time, nothing happens overnight.
And nothing happens if it doesn't start somewhere...
Like the 300WM in 1963 or the 300PRC in 2018.

Soon enough this generation will be saying...
"I was shooting a 6.5CM before you were born sonny"

What you have said ... Has an extremely high degree of truth , Bee Maa. For instance , Mike LaGrange ( Author of " Ballistics ln Perspective " and African Problem Animal Control officer .... Who single handedly dispatched 6000 African elephants , as part of his culling duties in the 1980s ) predicted ( In 1990 ) that the .375 A Square would 1 day supersede the .375 Holland & Holland magnum . But then , the .375 A Square completely disappeared from the scene.

 

[Fastrig]

@Fastrig
My PH/ property owner drops leopard with his 25 ought six. Doesn't make it a leopard rifle.
Bob

Your PH is kind of making my point, you don't need a 375 to drop a leopard as a "minimum". Not sure which caliber should be considered a "leopard rifle" but do know that a 375 and larger is overkill. I've hunted mountain lion as big or bigger than many leopards and used a borrowed 300 win mag with good off the shelf ammo. It was more than enough rifle and, honestly, a 308 win or 30-06 would have done just fine (shoot 180 grain bullets in both calibers). A 338 Federal would be excellent and the 9.3x62 is always a good option if you just have to use a heavier round.

Personally believe the reason so many think you need a magnum for anything bigger than a white tail is because of marketing from the manufactures and testosterone infused hunting writers. Magnums aren't really necessary except for a handful of animals on this planet.

 

[YancyW]

@YancyW
One question. Are these new 6.5s doing anything different to game at sane hunting ranges that the 6.5x55s and the 264 win mag won't do?.
Call me an old fuddy duddy but the old still does the job and has been doing so for a long time.
To me one thing all these new 6.5s have been great at giving the OLD 264 win mag a new lease on life.
Bob

No.
The only thing I would say, at normal game ranges, the 6.5CM and PRC will work just as well as the 264 win mag, but with less powder, less recoil, and less barrel wear. Now for a hunting rifle, I'm not sure any of those three factors actually matter to most people. I don't own a 264 win mag, but one would cover about 90% of all hunting I do, especially now that bullet selection is so wide in the caliber.