New DOUBLE RIFLE IN 458 LOTT

[IvW]

What exactly is the"remarkable difference" between a .458 Lot and a .458 Win?

And what are the experiences, that you will never use a.458 Win on boffalo or Elefant?

HWL

The case capacity is too small to push 500/550 grn bullets at an acceptable velocity without getting into pressure problems.

I have on 2 different occasions had clients rifles lock up after the shot, with the client not being able to cycle the bolt! The reason for this is that due to minimal case capacity, rounds are often loaded to max. This is fine when you have cool weather but when it gets hot in the Zambezi valley or KZN, the extra heat causes the spike in pressure and lock ups.

I have also seen penetration issues with this cartridge due to the lack of MV.

Now if you cannot reload your rifle after the first shot, you better hope whatever you shot at goes the other way because you now only have a club in your hands.

The LOTT on the other hand achieve respectable velocity with the same bullets without the pressure issues.

I will not use either myself as the are both straight walled cases and have belted cases.

I use a 500 JEFF and that has a bottle neck case, no belt, no case capacity issues and fires it's 570 gr bullet at low pressure to 2300 fps which is more than I need for any situation.

 

[Moosemind]

This should ruffle some feathers.

 

[CTDolan]

This should ruffle some feathers.View attachment 263996

This is the second .460 Weatherby in a double I have seen. Each time I ask myself, why? But, as another has mentioned, the heart wants what the heart wants. At our core we are indeed irrational beings.

Speaking of Westley Richards, they have also made their double in .425 Westley Richards and .500 Jeffrey, each a cartridge with a rebated rim. How they get that to work I'll never know.

 

[Odinsraven]

Have a 1910 bolt in 318wr rebored to 8x57

A double in 318 wr unfortunately not by WR but BSW Shul ......1938 ..........

Would kill for a 425WR or any Double ......I did see a 303 brit by WR cursed a lifetime of beer drinking

 

[rookhawk]

Very difficult to sell a double rifle in 458 lott, 458 win, or 460 weatherby. You're putting out a lot of energy and velocity. They are designed for DG. The odds of a stuck case is high on a rimless magnum. (you die because you can't reload), and the odds of a jam because you slip the cartridge under the ejector spur and can't close the gun is also measurable. (and you die, because you can't fire)

There is a reason dangerous game double rifles are side by side, double trigger, ejectors, with rimmed magnum cartridges. (resiliency, redundancy, and less likelihood to fail)

For those reasons, you're going to see VERY deep discounts on those guns.

An exhibition grade $100,000 Beretta Over Under sidelock ejector .458 with a single trigger languished for years at the Beretta gallery. It sold for low $20ks and is now being peddled online by the 3rd or 4th dealer trying to sell it new and unfired at $35k ten years later. The configuration of the gun just introduces way to many risks to justify paying what it would be worth if it were the same gun, but SxS, Double Trigger, in 450/400 or 470.

 

[rookhawk]

Dear friends,

I'm programming to buy a DOUBLE RIFLE, I would like it to be in the caliber 458Lott, I already have a MERKEL 160.2 500NE, I love this weapon. But as I already have 3 other 458lott caliber rifles the logistical ammunition and reloading supplements.

The question, who can make a DOUBLE SXS sidelock 458lott for me? I would like to stay with a maximum value of US $ 25,000.00.

I accept suggestions, I appreciate the attention

Beto

Sorry for my bad English.

Portuguese and Spanish are better.

@BETO I wouldn't pay good money to buy a new 458 double rifle. You can't give them away. If you really want one, buy a used one at a significant discount. I'm sure you can find a $50,000 458 double rifle used for under $25,000 if you look a bit and place offers.

 

[Odinsraven]

@BETO I wouldn't pay good money to buy a new 458 double rifle. You can't give them away. If you really want one, buy a used one at a significant discount. I'm sure you can find a $50,000 458 double rifle used for under $25,000 if you look a bit and place offers.

So true rimless OU go seriously cheap always tempted to add one for piggies ....but then beer ration might be withheld by the Blonde

 

[rookhawk]

So true rimless OU go seriously cheap always tempted to add one for piggies ....but then beer ration might be withheld by the Blonde

Yes, for two reasons. 1.) "Not traditional" so its a question of aesthetics, and 2.) The gape to open and close the gun is much bigger, slowing reloading, encouraging more jams, and harder to speed load with the two-cartridges-between-your-knuckles manouver.

Not trying to battle to what degree these things are really important truths, just stating they are truths when it comes to value and resale of the guns. So if you don't get bothered by these features, by all means buy the guns but don't pay anywhere near the price you would pay for "normal" DG rifles.

 

[One Day...]

Yes, for two reasons. 1.) "Not traditional" so its a question of aesthetics, and 2.) The gape to open and close the gun is much bigger, slowing reloading, encouraging more jams, and harder to speed load with the two-cartridges-between-your-knuckles maneuver.
Not trying to battle to what degree these things are really important truths, just stating they are truths when it comes to value and resale of the guns. So if you don't get bothered by these features, by all means buy the guns but don't pay anywhere near the price you would pay for "normal" DG rifles.

+1 on all that, +1 on earlier comments by IvW, etc.

There is a third reason why one wants to be circumspect before buying an O/U double in a large caliber, which is that until very recently all the over & under 'African caliber' doubles were built on actions designed for 9.3x74R rifles. Strength is not the issue (unless you go to ridiculously high pressure cartridges/loads), weight is. There has been a Heym 55 in .470 NE on & off on gunbroker.com for years. Great gun, but if it is only 9 lbs and a few ounces. Recoil is going to bring that thing almost vertical on the first shot, and the second shot will take enough time to negate the advantage of a double over a bolt action. I was talking with Chris, the Manager at Heym USA about it at SCI in Reno last week, and he thinks that it was a mistake producing the gun to begin with. Heym now has a heavier action for those.

At any rate, it baffles me, when one can purchase a 100% proven Krieghoff .470 NE for $13k new (and not much less used - which tells you something about resale value, hence how people judge the rifle), why someone would want to spend $25k to buy a double in .458 either Win or Lott... I just don't get it, and yes I know that the spring loaded ejectors generally work when clean, oiled, etc., but to me it is one more thing that has the potential to go wrong when conditions become challenging...

PS: admittedly, safaris have become so plush that you even see nowadays some folks walking to the buff with their precious English bang-stick in a deluxe padded gun case to be open only when the gun goes on the sticks... so I guess "worst case scenario" or even "challenging conditions" are becoming a thing of the past on safari. Too bad, if you ask me, but who am I to judge

 

[Moosemind]

A like new Krieghoff SxS 470 Nitro in excellent condition just sold on Gunbroker for $6k. Can't be a negative for Krieghoff if someone wants to give it away. There are tremendous deals rimmed or not. SxS or O/U. Shouldn't have any problem finding one if you LOOK.

+1 on all that, +1 on earlier comments by IvW, etc.

There is a third reason why one wants to be circumspect before buying an O/U double in a large caliber, which is that until very recently all the over & under 'African caliber' doubles were built on actions designed for 9.3x74R rifles. Strength is not the issue (unless you go to ridiculously high pressure cartridges/loads), weight is. There has been a Heym 55 in .470 NE on & off on gunbroker.com for years. Great gun, but if it is only 9 lbs and a few ounces. Recoil is going to bring that thing almost vertical on the first shot, and the second shot will take enough time to negate the advantage of a double over a bolt action. I was talking with Chris, the Manager at Heym USA about it at SCI in Reno last week, and he thinks that it was a mistake producing the gun to begin with. Heym now has a heavier action for those.

At any rate, it baffles me, when one can purchase a 100% proven Krieghoff .470 NE for $13,000 new (and not much less used - which tells you something about resale value, hence how people judge the rifle), why someone would want to spend more to buy a double in .458 either Win or Lott... I just don't get it, and yes I know that the spring loaded ejectors generally work when clean, oiled, etc., but to me it is one more thing that has the potential to go wrong when conditions become challenging...

PS: admittedly, safaris have become so plush that you even see nowadays some folks walking to the buff with their precious English bang-stick in a deluxe padded gun case to be open only when the gun goes on the sticks... so I guess "worst case scenario" is becoming a thing of the past on safari. Too bad, if you ask me, but who am I to judge

 

[rookhawk]

A like new Krieghoff SxS 470 Nitro in excellent condition just sold on Gunbroker for $6k. Can't be a negative for Krieghoff if someone wants to give it away. There are tremendous deals rimmed or not. SxS or O/U. Shouldn't have any problem finding one if you LOOK.

Absolutely. If I see a used DR for sale and its over $20k, it better have the words "best and english" in the name. Paying north of $12k for a mass manufactured modern DR strikes me as madness, but maybe because I don't like to lose money. (I don't own a boat either...same reason)

 

[One Day...]

A like new Krieghoff SxS 470 Nitro in excellent condition just sold on Gunbroker for $6k. Can't be a negative for Krieghoff if someone wants to give it away. There are tremendous deals rimmed or not. SxS or O/U. Shouldn't have any problem finding one if you LOOK.

Yep, just amazing what pops up from time to time when people are desperate or ignorant...

 

[IvW]

So if one comes about a really top grade, magnificent wood, sidelock, beautifully engraved, with ejectors and Kersten 3rd lock but it is chambered in 458WM.......what is a man to do?
Rechamber and regulate to 450 No.2 NE??

 

[IvW]

Price is US$10 000

 

[Aaron N]

So if one comes about a really top grade, magnificent wood, sidelock, beautifully engraved, with ejectors and Kersten 3rd lock but it is chambered in 458WM.......what is a man to do?
Rechamber and regulate to 450 No.2 NE??

Just put your biases aside and see if the rifle can do what it was made to!

 

[AimSmall]

Buy it.
Shoot it.
Post pictures.
We'll help you decide!

 

[IvW]

Eish.....it is the most beautiful double I have ever seen.....it is a 9 pin sidelock with hand detachable locks...fine engraving out of this world......
But 458WM......
Only advantage is that if it was a 470 or 500 I quess the price would be double......

 

[TOBY458]

Could you rechamber to straight 450 Nitro? Seems that would be pretty straightforward @IvW
But I’d bet the extractor modification would be the most costly thing.

 

[IvW]

 

[IvW]

Could you rechamber to straight 450 Nitro? Seems that would be pretty straightforward @IvW
But I’d bet the extractor modification would be the most costly thing.

It is an ejector.....and I really like 450 no.2 NE..