New 375 on the Market

[2RECON]

Hallo, shown in that Picture are,left to right, a 375 Hölderlin (a German 375 Wildcat based on a 8x68 Case) the 375 H&H, and the new 375 XLR. Based on a 338Lapua Magnum Case this one is CIP listed. It´ll get 900m/sec (2960fps) shooting a 325grs Solid Bullet. Have shot 500 Meter Groups of just under 2" 5 Shot.

Best
2RECON

 

[Riflecrank]

Wonderful to see you posting here, 2RECON.
I wish you would tell the tale of how this cartridge came to be CIP homologated, over 20 years after conception ?

This cartridge was the first wildcat with which I ever "re-invented the wheel."
After I necked up a .338 Lapua Magnum to .375-caliber in 2003 I corresponded with Ed Reynolds of the old "Accuload" and he sent me some snippets of an email from Lutz Moeller dated 19 April 2002:

"Waffen Jung hat aus der 338 Lapua Mag. Eine 9,5 mm Magnum namens 9,5 Tornado herausgebracht."

Ed sent a drawing of a 9.5 x 69mm Tornado cartridge to me on 3/8/2003.
I put it on the back burner and did not get cooking on my .375/.338 Lapua Magnum until 2005.
I called mine the ".375 Twister"

Did Waffen Jung really have to drop the "Tornado" name due to the German Air Force name for a fighter jet ?
Or was it the other way around ?
Ha !!!

 

[skydiver386]

This would be a fine cartridge for Eland on up with stoutly constructed bullets.

 

[Riflecrank]

My .338 Lapua Magnum litter, each for which I have built one or two rifles,
mostly CZ 550 Magnums, one BRNO ZKK 602, one Winchester M70, one Weatherby Mark V,
and one FN Mauser with Duane Wiebe's 500 Jeffery bottom metal:

Old bullets might be updated with the latest from CEB, North Fork and Hammer Bullets,
as available.

 

[Ray B]

What? No .470?

 

[Riflecrank]

What? No .470?

Nah, that is a 'tweener caliber not a significant improvement over .458-caliber, and poor bullet availability in .475 caliber, and most of those are .474-caliber to be easy on double-barrels.
.500-caliber and .510-caliber are a real step up, and they both have lots of bullets available,
from .500 S&W, 500 NE, 500 Jeffery to 50 BMG.
Besides, I already had a .470 NE, .470 Mbogo, and .470 Capstick to feed, and later they had a baby, a .475 Linebaugh Ruger No. 1.

No .505/.338 Lapua Magnum either for similar reasons.

Now, from 2005, by world famous Master Gunsmith Rusty McGee, here is the first time I have unleashed more than a mere glimpse of the .375 Twister rifle upon the internet.
This was the beginning of my Lapua OCD: .375/.338 LM

Rifle weighs 9#8.9oz without scope and rings and no ammo.
Dan Lilja No. 6 sporter, fluted, stainless, 1:12" twist, 26" length.
CZ 550 Magnum action. Arm Tec stock from RSA was handy, not waiting on McMillan back then.

CZ OEM rings and a Leupold 2.5-8x36mm with mildot reticle are neato on a .375 Twister.

 

[Riflecrank]

It is a hunting rifle. The Arm Tec stock had its LOP lengthened to 14" by use of a 1.5" pad, Pachmayr Triple-X "White-Line" with blackening of the white:

I never used one of those pads again, easier to just add LOP with a slip-on LOP adjuster, easier to switch to arctic clothing fit by removing the Velcro-fastening LOP adjuster.
I did use some more of the Brockman fore end tip sling studs like on this one:

I also stopped doing that after discovering how much easier (and lighter) an Uncle Mike's stud
was when it and a nut were sunk in epoxy just below the barrel channel at tip.
It will need another usual stud for bipod if this rifle ever mounted a tactical mission.
It is heavy enough to shoot from prone.

 

[BeeMaa]

@Riflecrank - What kind of performance can you get out of the 375/338LM?

How does it stack up against the other "improved" 357H&H's that are already existing like the 375WBY, 378WBY, 375RUM and 375RUGER with similar or the same bullets?

If it's just more bullet speed and more punishment to my shoulder, I'd prefer to move up a caliber size to .416 and keep the speed at or below 2500 fps. If I'm going to deal with more punishment, then I'd really like a bigger diameter bullet to go with it.

 

[Riflecrank]

The real deal .375 XLR (eXtra Long Range ?):

500 meter 5-shot group:

Some SQLR bullets (?) and I think the 325-gr copper that did the group is 4th from right below:

Hoping 2RECON can add some history and ballistics here.
What sort of load gives 4700 bar in the .375 XLR ?
I might want to try that in my .375 Twister.
Then step down to mere 300-grainers at 2900 fps for field use.
More comfortable than a 378 Weatherby Magnum for same ballistics.
Reminds me of using a .458 WIN MAG for same ballistics as from a SAAMI .458 Lott.

Now, where do I get some .375 XLR brass ?
I already have the Triebel handloading dies from the original proprietary Waffen Jung 9,5x70 Mag, thanks to a handloading die swap with 2RECON years ago.
Just need to get some laser engraving of ".375 XLR" on my rifle and I am ready to go, finally.

 

[Riflecrank]

BeeMaa,
Been so long since I shot it I will have to go look at the books.
IIRC I only loaded it to .375 Weatherby load levels, about 2800 fps with 300-grainers in a 26" barrel.
My throat is same as the latest .375 Weatherby of CIP 2002: Good accuracy.
My pressures were low, with a bigger case than the .375 Wby.

2RECON's CIP cartridge has a shorter throat.
His pressures are allowed up to 68,160 psi/4700 bar.
I want to hear what fantastic velocities he is getting for his 325-grainers and sub-0.5 MOA for 5 shots at 500 meters.

I too prefer a larger caliber for all-purpose use: .458 WIN MAG.
400- and 404-grainers at 2500 to 2600 fps from zero yards to 350 yards as I prefer to limit myself.
A rifleman has got to know his limits.

 

[Riflecrank]

My preferred load back in the day was 90.0 grains of H4350 with the 300-gr GSC HV (monometal copper hollowpoint) which gave about 2860 fps from my 26" barrel.
That was a 99% fill with the COL used for that bullet.
Plenty of room for more powder to get compression with a drop tube and probably could add 10,000 psi that way to get to 4700 bar and .375 XLR max loads.
.375 XLR max loads will probably beat the 378 Weatherby Magnum, I am starting to think ...

I do recall now that necking up to .375 on a .338 LapuaMagnum case produces the "dreaded donut"
so I would inside ream the necks after an initial fire-forming with a shorter bullet's boat tail seated against the donut. 300-gr Sierra GameKings were used for fireforming.
Ready-made, properly headstamped .375 XLR brass would be worth some laser engraving on my rifle.

 

[BeeMaa]

@Riflecrank - You are talking WAAAAAY above my level of comprehension/knowledge/understanding with what you are doing. However, I trust what you are saying is true.

I’ll have to stay in my lane with factory loaded 375H&H ammo until I’m independently wealthy enough to hire you as my personal ballistic coordinator.

 

[Safari Dave]

I seriously doubt that this one will be around in 20 years...

 

[Boone66]

You keep mentioning the 9.5, have you or anyone made one from the 338 lapua case?

 

[BeeMaa]

I seriously doubt that this one will be around in 20 years...

I completely agree with you, with the obvious exception of handloaders who fell in love with it. However it does sound interesting.

 

[skydiver386]

I completely agree with you, with the obvious exception of handloaders who fell in love with it. However it does sound interesting.

Most new rounds rise or fall depending on the perceived need for such a creation.

Forty years ago, nobody would have predicted the success of the 300 Blackout, which is a 223 Rem necked to .308, firing most bullets below 2,000fps. What a worthless idea to load such fat bullets into such a small case ending up with subsonic speeds with some bullet weights.

When people finally understood that with 240 grain bullets in a 1 in 7 twist barrel at 1100fps through a suppressor you had an almost totally silent combination that hit like the hammer of Thor. THEN the 300 Blackout started to gain traction.

As I like to say, once you hear the THWACK, you never go back!

Sometimes it takes a while for a good thing to catch on.

 

[Riflecrank]

You keep mentioning the 9.5, have you or anyone made one from the 338 lapua case?

That was the whole idea behind the ".375 Twister" aka "9.5x69mm Tornado" aka .375 XLR (9.52x70mm)
now listed by CIP.
Started as a .338 Lapua Magnum case necked up and fire-formed to sharpen the shoulder.
Dreaded donut at shoulder-Neck 1 inside reamed as described above.

The Lapua-made .338 LM cases are tops, apparently made to tolerate 4700 bar/+68,000 psi,
as new they come with the nice annealing visible, not polished off.

.308-.458/.338 Lapua Magnum cartridges are all easily made from .338 Lapua Magnum cases.
No donut problems with .458 and larger.
For .500 and .510 calibers the case is blown out at shoulder (improved) for greater shoulder diameter.

At .500-caliber, about 1 in 100 cases will split the neck with fire-forming, even with the best-quality Lapua make.
The .500 and .510-calibers are therefore made from basic cylindrical .338 Lapua Magnum necked down.
Anneal after necking down.
The .416 Rigby basic cylindrical can also be used.
Specs may be .002" bigger on the Rigby rim and head, but that is a maximum spec and as made,
the .338 LM and .416 Rigby are about identical at rim and head diameters.

This new .375 XLR brass is specified for +68,000 psi by CIP, same as the .338 LM per CIP.
My .375 Twister could be happily made from .416 Rigby brass not meant for +68,000 psi.

You may find once-fired milsurp .338 LM brass of various makes for sale, cheap.
I believe that stuff is not annealed so the neck and shoulder are left hard in military ammo,
better function for slamming home one-time in battle (especially in a full-auto!),
meant for one firing only and discarded.
A duffer like me could use that by annealing before necking up.
Check case capacities. Milsurp might be thicker brass, less case capacity.

Sure would be nice if the .375 XLR catches on and becomes available commercially.
I won't hold my breath until then.

 

[Ray B]

I seriously doubt that this one will be around in 20 years...

If a cartridge will be available in 20 years depends on 1. it fills a niche not filled by other cartridges and the niche has sufficient economic support and 2. The cartridge manufacture involves standard operations. The preponderance of current manufacture cartridges involve one of three basic head dimensions: .376; .471; .532". Making the new cartridge involves minimal changeover so little cost involved in set-up. If the "new" cartridge has one of these head dimensions, if the factories cease production, the new cartridge will be easily formable from existing cases. For "big" game other cartridges fill the niche with headsizes .543 & .59 but these are limited availability and their price is reflected.

 

[Boone66]

Well, I feel a little stupid, 9.5=375. I was actually wondering if you had tried 9.3-338 lapua. Or did that not interest you?

 

[Riflecrank]

Boone66,
Some have opined that the 9.3/.338 LM would have been the most perfect cartridge.
That would be a .366/.338 Lapua Magnum.
But I started this OCD with .375, and that is only 0.009" different than a 9.3mm/.338 LM.
That is less than the difference between .500" and .510".
Bullet availability and a minimum caliber of .375 in some jurisdictions would still decide me the same.

Reason I never did much more with the .375 Twister was because it is not much bigger in capacity than the .375 WbyMag and throated the same, and not loaded to the higher pressures that the .375 XLR is designed for.

Twist and the .375 Twister:
The .375 XLR has a 1:12" twist like a .375 H&H, and my .375 Twister.
The faster the bullet goes, the faster it spins in Revolutions Per Second,
and the longer and heavier a bullet it can gyroscopically stabilize.
One revolution for each foot of travel in the barrel.
RPS = FPS of MV for 1:12" twist.
Twister, Tornado, tomato, tomahto.