Need for Solids?

[Fordy]

Gday beemaa

Shooting "through" brush is a myth. It doesn't matter what bullet is being used, tiny little branches, thought to be completely insignificant, will cause deflection. The only laws that apply are the laws of physics and if the bullet hits something before the intended target, there will be a change in course.

A interesting thought on being a myth let’s just step back a touch & let’s look @ those physics well in my muppet world of pictures being better way for me to hopefully explain but more so reality of field results over many a year that had roughly the same overall pattern

Now a lot more in this than these pictures show ( also have a more deflection pictures in various other calibers upto including .510 & understanding what causes more is one that is slowly getting understood more ea day ) & backed up in the field that started over 30 years ago on multiple thousands of shots into critters back then that the actual point of aim to actual impact point can be improved on a hit ratio being vastly improved on if we understand those physics a little better for which I am not smart enough on knowing all of them let alone a few but the use of better brush bullets were one that got more $ in my pocket than if I stuck with the traditional that were originally used

some people I rub shoulders with over the years have shown why my field results all those years ago worked better than the standard bullets used ( through physics) & only been visiting this for about the last 2 to 3 years due to my trying to cover even more bases than what is currently available or known & by no way have I worked out the best as still someways to go & more testing is to be done


Special note
I thought I had a process all worked out & @michael458 gave me a firm tap on the shoulder with the world of reality of what I was doing was not the full picture . & I had a lot of catching up to do on what Michael had already started exploring many years before I thought of it & a path forward is being put in place

can I guarantee a non deflection
No I can’t but I can guarantee that one can lessen it & deflection is only part of the equation once again as now we need to understand what that pill that impacted some brush or like prior to the critter is capable of doing & this is not a just capable of killing the critter as that is a whole new chapter also & another time on that

Cheers

 

[Tanks]

No but so frustrated with Hornady I don't see a reason to even try it. So many more reliable products available.

I have had great success with DGX and DGS on buffalo and elephants.

Can't ask for better expansion than the pic below. This was the other side of the .510 caliber hole.

And the lungs...

Bullet was found just under the skin at the other side.

 

[Brian]

1. I'm not saying their bullets shoot poorly, but my experience with their factory loaded ammo has been that most shoots really well however every now and then there will a real flyer. Leads me to believe it is a quality control issue.

2. Exactly my experience with my 111 year old Nitro Express hammer double. I would have preferred almost anything else such as a Woodleigh Protected Point. I had Swift A Frames in 500 grain but the rifle is regulated for 480 grains and the load data i have is for 480 grain bullets. So I used the Hornady DGX Bonded... Or at least the bullets that came out of the box labeled so.

As for the rest of your comments;
I honestly disagree with your positive opinion of Hornady. Certainly there has to be good people there and Steve Hornady is probably a great guy. I'm sure we'd get along in a hunting camp... As long as we avoided any discussion of bullets

There is a very mainstream hunting video where Steve Hornady is testing his new DGX Bonded bullets. He openly declares there was no need for it saying there is nothing wrong with the old standard DGX. He goes on to say they developed it because some customers were asking for it. He has obviously not bought in on this and comes across as being somewhat irritated about having to bother with the Bonded bullet. I just don't believe the top man believes in their value and from my experience the attitude of the top management is reflected in the culture of the company.

So I just cannot share any enthusiasm that Hornady has somehow had their customers best interest in mind. I suspect it was more a case of being dragged by their heels through customers push back on the old DGX.

That buffalo i shot with this .458 480 grain DGX Bonded bullet ran for 8 days and scared the hell out of some PG hunters it charged. The PH had to finally get a helicopter to go after it. All because my Hornady supposedly Bonded Bullet exploded on impact and failed to penetrate. The reason I'm telling this story is to let others know that to Trust a Hornady bullet, even the new Bonded ones, can be a crap shoot. You may get lucky or you may not.

I don't think that Hornady listens to anyone but their shareholders. For years they have been making poor DG bullets while they have been advertising how great their DG bullets are.

That is just dishonest. The only way to get a company like that to listen is to quit buying their bad product. However people keep buying their bullets because they can't tell the difference and Hornady counts on that. I know how good bullet should reform on a buffalo and Hornady DG bullets have been poor bullet for too long.

 

[sureshot375]

What is the collective experience with Hornady DGS on elephant?

Somewhere here there is a thread on a the subject. I had the same question after buying a double that regulated unbelievably good with DGS.

As I recall the general consensus was go with confidence.

As for my one elephant with DGS it was a complete pass through on a side brain shot.

 

[mark-hunter]

Thanks!

 

[sureshot375]

Nobody is talking about the elephant in the room, elephants.

Any of the quality expanding bullets are good for buff coming or going.

However, I don’t see myself going to Africa without solids. If I’m in elephant country I’m going to have solids on me. I basically have the left barrel of my double loaded with a solid at all times. It also come in handy if I come across something small that I want to shoot.

 

[mark-hunter]

My question is related to elephants.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I too am still a fan of solids and will always take a few on every hunt. You absolutely need them for Elephant, Rhino, and Hippo on land like a few others have said.

When Buffalo hunting I like to keep the 2nd & 3rd round in my 375 as solids. I can quickly shuck the top round if I encounter a Tiny 10 animal and it’s there for my 2nd/3rd shot on a buffalo when he’s either charging or going away. In both situations I feel penetration matters, and I want something that can penetrate the entire length from the rear should I need to take that shot. The only place I wouldn’t use a solid when buffalo hunting is in an area like Mozambique or somewhere that you’re hunting buff in herds, since over penetration is now a concern.

 

[festuscat]

I agree with Mtn_Infantry Bring a few solids.
And let the situation dictate their use.

Just posted: an American hunter was killed in SA by a Cape Buffalo.
No details as of yet x report was it was unprovoked.
RIP

 

[Brian]

Very sad to hear about the hunters death. Brian

 

[Brian]

The only dangerous game that I have killed in Africa are cape buffalo.
I have lost track of how many were killed with which bullet. This is not because I have killed very many, it's because my memory is getting poor I don't keep good records on my hunting.
However I just found found my records on cape buffalo that I killed with the .375 HH 300 grain, North Fork Cup Point Solid Bullet.

I think that this is all of them.
1. Old big bodied bull facing me at 22 yds. Bullet hit centre of chest. Bull went 30 yds.
2. Bull facing me at 35 yds. Bullet hit centre of chest. Bull went about 28 yds.
3. Old cow at 40 yds. quartering to me. Bullet hit front right shoulder and into vitals. Cow ran 20 yds.
4. Old cow at 35 yds. quartering to me. Bullet broke femur bone and into vitals. Cow jumped in a circle and quickly went down right on the spot.
5. Old cow at 65 yds broadside. Good shoulder shot. Cow went 40 yds.
6. Old cow at 100 yds broadside. bad shot, only caught one lung. Six hour chase and charge.

To the best of my recollection this was my .375HH experience with the NF CPS, 300 grain on cape buffalo.

As I have mentioned before, I think that the .375HH is not a good choice for cape buffalo and solids are not a good choice for the .375. Too small a diameter bullet.
However, after going through my limited records on the .375 HH, I have to say that the .375 worked ok for me when I got the shot right. In other words, it works until it doesn't.

I should mention that with a good .500 or .577 solid or soft bullet in the engine room of a cape buffalo, "Dead right there" and "Bang flop" are the order of the day.

Big bores are very satisfying on cape buffalo but they do lack the excitement/entertainment factor that the .375 HH so generously provides.

 

[rookhawk]

About two weeks ago I returned from South Africa and a management bull and cow buffalo hunt. I got both critters with no drama at about 40-50 yards using a 375 H&H and 300 grain Federal premium ammo in a rented rifle.
After my hunt I was talking guns and bullets with the retired PH who actually owned the land upon which I had been hunting.
His opinion was that since the advent of the really good controlled expansion, mono copper bullets like the Barnes brand that he felt there really was no longer any real need for solids in the 375 caliber rifles and on up.
What’s your opinion?

Personal opinion: my second shot in a double or magazine rifle is always a solid. If your shot isn't perfect and you experience a charge, a solid has a chance to pass through the boss.

For general DG hunting, a soft is a superior first shot for all creatures I can think of other than elephant that is solids only.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I agree with Mtn_Infantry Bring a few solids.
And let the situation dictate their use.

Just posted: an American hunter was killed in SA by a Cape Buffalo.
No details as of yet x report was it was unprovoked.
RIP

It always saddens Mr to hear of a hunter's death, but if he died doing something he loved.. Maybe there are worse ways to leave this world.

I just watched a good friend die of cancer. He wanted to go deer hunting and I said we would go. I had done the sane thing 20 years ago when his older brother was also dying of cancer. We got a nice buck and he was proud. Younger brother didn't get the chance.

 

[Brian]

Gday grand veneur sorry for delay had a lot on with work & no excuse but it’s hard with what I’m doing @ that moment to get enough hours in the day to do what I’d love to do so please bare with me as 16 to 20 hours a day is the norm work schedule for me @ present 7days a week & had a couple hours up my sleeve this morning before I head out again

Anyway moving on to your reply to me

Depends if one is fixated with the conventional old thoughts or are willing to clear their heads & look @ factuals in critters
Yes it takes time to understand , just think how long it took Fn to gain credibility over the RN & yet some still say it’s never happened to me so all good on a RN well get in line & take one’s number in the bingo raffle as the number will eventually come up well to someone it will

Does this make it the best to cover all bases ???
That takes one to look @ the whole picture first off & not put a blanket over everything as this below of

Shows exactly that although I see some different thoughts from @BeeMaa & I’ll come to that as we go but a separate post I’ll make as not to clutter this up to much

Or is it they haven’t seen it yet ?? A old saying of when the majority work out what the minority is on about the minority have already moved on is one that can be traced a longways back & sometimes yes it does take decades

So back to the start & until one delves deeper the answer of not is flawed

No offence intended on my response as the discussion is a great one to start & thankyou for taking the time to open the discussion up & next part I’d like to add is the deflection off horns , teeth or certain bones or deformation of the pill of impacting it as that also goes with the brush examples & that also is another one of those bases to consider/cover if one wants to cover as many bases as possible on a hunt yet it may NEVER happen to you or your mate but it’s one that will occur to someone & yes does occur on a limited basis & understanding in those cases you’ll wish you had a true solid of good design

Cheers

1. I'm not saying their bullets shoot poorly, but my experience with their factory loaded ammo has been that most shoots really well however every now and then there will a real flyer. Leads me to believe it is a quality control issue.

2. Exactly my experience with my 111 year old Nitro Express hammer double. I would have preferred almost anything else such as a Woodleigh Protected Point. I had Swift A Frames in 500 grain but the rifle is regulated for 480 grains and the load data i have is for 480 grain bullets. So I used the Hornady DGX Bonded... Or at least the bullets that came out of the box labeled so.

As for the rest of your comments;
I honestly disagree with your positive opinion of Hornady. Certainly there has to be good people there and Steve Hornady is probably a great guy. I'm sure we'd get along in a hunting camp... As long as we avoided any discussion of bullets

There is a very mainstream hunting video where Steve Hornady is testing his new DGX Bonded bullets. He openly declares there was no need for it saying there is nothing wrong with the old standard DGX. He goes on to say they developed it because some customers were asking for it. He has obviously not bought in on this and comes across as being somewhat irritated about having to bother with the Bonded bullet. I just don't believe the top man believes in their value and from my experience the attitude of the top management is reflected in the culture of the company.

So I just cannot share any enthusiasm that Hornady has somehow had their customers best interest in mind. I suspect it was more a case of being dragged by their heels through customers push back on the old DGX.

That buffalo i shot with this .458 480 grain DGX Bonded bullet ran for 8 days and scared the hell out of some PG hunters it charged. The PH had to finally get a helicopter to go after it. All because my Hornady supposedly Bonded Bullet exploded on impact and failed to penetrate. The reason I'm telling this story is to let others know that to Trust a Hornady bullet, even the new Bonded ones, can be a crap shoot. You may get lucky or you may not.

ActionBob, Excellent post. Thank you for saying it out loud. I feel that Hornady DG bullets are dangerously poorly designed and constructed. It seems to me that they are all about their marketing, the quality and design of their bullet are secondary.

 

[Brian]

Gday grand veneur sorry for delay had a lot on with work & no excuse but it’s hard with what I’m doing @ that moment to get enough hours in the day to do what I’d love to do so please bare with me as 16 to 20 hours a day is the norm work schedule for me @ present 7days a week & had a couple hours up my sleeve this morning before I head out again

Anyway moving on to your reply to me

Depends if one is fixated with the conventional old thoughts or are willing to clear their heads & look @ factuals in critters
Yes it takes time to understand , just think how long it took Fn to gain credibility over the RN & yet some still say it’s never happened to me so all good on a RN well get in line & take one’s number in the bingo raffle as the number will eventually come up well to someone it will

Does this make it the best to cover all bases ???
That takes one to look @ the whole picture first off & not put a blanket over everything as this below of

Shows exactly that although I see some different thoughts from @BeeMaa & I’ll come to that as we go but a separate post I’ll make as not to clutter this up to much

Or is it they haven’t seen it yet ?? A old saying of when the majority work out what the minority is on about the minority have already moved on is one that can be traced a longways back & sometimes yes it does take decades

So back to the start & until one delves deeper the answer of not is flawed

No offence intended on my response as the discussion is a great one to start & thankyou for taking the time to open the discussion up & next part I’d like to add is the deflection off horns , teeth or certain bones or deformation of the pill of impacting it as that also goes with the brush examples & that also is another one of those bases to consider/cover if one wants to cover as many bases as possible on a hunt yet it may NEVER happen to you or your mate but it’s one that will occur to someone & yes does occur on a limited basis & understanding in those cases you’ll wish you had a true solid of good design

Cheers

Fordy, I sure appreciate your comments and post of view. Brian

 

[Brian]

1. I'm not saying their bullets shoot poorly, but my experience with their factory loaded ammo has been that most shoots really well however every now and then there will a real flyer. Leads me to believe it is a quality control issue.

2. Exactly my experience with my 111 year old Nitro Express hammer double. I would have preferred almost anything else such as a Woodleigh Protected Point. I had Swift A Frames in 500 grain but the rifle is regulated for 480 grains and the load data i have is for 480 grain bullets. So I used the Hornady DGX Bonded... Or at least the bullets that came out of the box labeled so.

As for the rest of your comments;
I honestly disagree with your positive opinion of Hornady. Certainly there has to be good people there and Steve Hornady is probably a great guy. I'm sure we'd get along in a hunting camp... As long as we avoided any discussion of bullets

There is a very mainstream hunting video where Steve Hornady is testing his new DGX Bonded bullets. He openly declares there was no need for it saying there is nothing wrong with the old standard DGX. He goes on to say they developed it because some customers were asking for it. He has obviously not bought in on this and comes across as being somewhat irritated about having to bother with the Bonded bullet. I just don't believe the top man believes in their value and from my experience the attitude of the top management is reflected in the culture of the company.

So I just cannot share any enthusiasm that Hornady has somehow had their customers best interest in mind. I suspect it was more a case of being dragged by their heels through customers push back on the old DGX.

That buffalo i shot with this .458 480 grain DGX Bonded bullet ran for 8 days and scared the hell out of some PG hunters it charged. The PH had to finally get a helicopter to go after it. All because my Hornady supposedly Bonded Bullet exploded on impact and failed to penetrate. The reason I'm telling this story is to let others know that to Trust a Hornady bullet, even the new Bonded ones, can be a crap shoot. You may get lucky or you may not.

This is my personal take on Hornady DG bullets. I believe that years ago, a corporate decision was made to produce a cheap, mediocre DG bullet and market it like hell. This decision must have paid off for them because they ran with it for a long time.

I wonder how many cape buffalo hunter were endangered while following up on buffalo that were wounded with Hornady DG bullets. I am convinced that prospect never bothered the bean counters at Hornady.
And how about all the Hornady marketing photos of rugged hunters standing in the wilderness gloating over the trophies? Very impressive.

Does anybody know who really controls or owns the great Hornady company? Are there any hunters among them?

Recently Hornady has been bragging about their new and improved DG bullet. As far as I am concerned they are too late. My ship has already sailed.

Sorry, I am pretty cynical about Hornady bullets and the high profile hunter that promote them.

 

[Hornedfrogbbq]

This is my personal take on Hornady DG bullets. I believe that years ago, a corporate decision was made to produce a cheap, mediocre DG bullet and market it like hell. This decision must have paid off for them because they ran with it for a long time.

I wonder how many cape buffalo hunter were endangered while following up on buffalo that were wounded with Hornady DG bullets. I am convinced that prospect never bothered the bean counters at Hornady.
And how about all the Hornady marketing photos of rugged hunters standing in the wilderness gloating over the trophies? Very impressive.

Does anybody know who really controls or owns the great Hornady company? Are there any hunters among them?

Recently Hornady has been bragging about their new and improved DG bullet. As far as I am concerned they are too late. My ship has already sailed.

Sorry, I am pretty cynical about Hornady bullets and the high profile hunter that promote them.

Personally, i think the market has become much much more competitive in the last 10 years which is great for all of us. Let the capital markets do what they do. Folks that can't compete will hemorrhage money in product lines.

I will suggest that bonding thwir softs is a GOOD thing. I also just went to Scheels in Dallas to return some Federal Power-Shok ammo (i have bought boxes of like 5 different types of softs and solids to see what my gun digests well) and the only other .375 ammo on the shelf was the DGS and the salesguy said he couldn't give them away.

Mr. Market works...just give him time.

By the way, the Federal bullets were returned because the bullet wasn't seated well and a bullet literally fell out of a casing while 3 other cartridges had bullets that rotated. Bad batch.

 

[Challer]

I have a very big fan of the 67%-70% meplat truncated cone bullets like CEB SS and similar. They don't expand in the traditional sense. They do penetrate deep but the flat meplat does introduce a hydrostatic shock effect. When handgun hunting hogs with the 7.5 FK or 10mm, and flat meplat bullets, the results are very effective. Certainly when hunting brownies with all the fat to get through, I use flat solids to get through. They work great in buffalo as well.

I've been a fan of the Swifts and TSX and have good stockpile but consider adding a flat solid in the mix.

 

[ActionBob]

This is my personal take on Hornady DG bullets. I believe that years ago, a corporate decision was made to produce a cheap, mediocre DG bullet and market it like hell. This decision must have paid off for them because they ran with it for a long time.

I wonder how many cape buffalo hunter were endangered while following up on buffalo that were wounded with Hornady DG bullets. I am convinced that prospect never bothered the bean counters at Hornady.
And how about all the Hornady marketing photos of rugged hunters standing in the wilderness gloating over the trophies? Very impressive.

Does anybody know who really controls or owns the great Hornady company? Are there any hunters among them?

Recently Hornady has been bragging about their new and improved DG bullet. As far as I am concerned they are too late. My ship has already sailed.

Sorry, I am pretty cynical about Hornady bullets and the high profile hunter that promote them.

They've actually had pretty good bonded bullets for a long time. In 2014 I took a 6.5 Creedmoor to Africa with the only ammo available for it at the time. 129 grain Hornady interbond. The PH was thrilled woth that combo as he had just hosted a Hornady employee who had been there hunting and testing that ammo. He did say they had used some 129 grain Interlock and it was garbage. We recovered several bullets that had perfect mushrooms and had penetrated very well.

I could never understand why they didn't utilize that technology in their DG bullets? I have to wonder if they has made so damned many of the larger caliber bullets that they were just using up old stock?

It is a private company currently headed up by Steve Hornady who appears in many hunting shows including Hornady's Dark and Dangerous and Tracks Across Africa. It was on at least one of those shows that adamantly stayed there was no problem with the old standard DG ammo but they introduced the new DGX Bonded because some customers were asking for it. I join you in calling BS!

 

[Brian]

They've actually had pretty good bonded bullets for a long time. In 2014 I took a 6.5 Creedmoor to Africa with the only ammo available for it at the time. 129 grain Hornady interbond. The PH was thrilled woth that combo as he had just hosted a Hornady employee who had been there hunting and testing that ammo. He did say they had used some 129 grain Interlock and it was garbage. We recovered several bullets that had perfect mushrooms and had penetrated very well.

I could never understand why they didn't utilize that technology in their DG bullets? I have to wonder if they has made so damned many of the larger caliber bullets that they were just using up old stock?

It is a private company currently headed up by Steve Hornady who appears in many hunting shows including Hornady's Dark and Dangerous and Tracks Across Africa. It was on at least one of those shows that adamantly stayed there was no problem with the old standard DG ammo but they introduced the new DGX Bonded because some customers were asking for it. I join you in calling BS!

View attachment 704920

Action bob, Thanks for the informative post and link. I will look into it maybe I won't be so judgemental. Brian