My Mauser failed me

[GuttormG]

swear as you’ve just flicked an expensive case over your shoulder

More than once I have had better control of where the empty case landed then what happened down range..
Lost one 7mm Rem Mag case on my first trip to S.A, more then one time I have wondered if it still there, alone in the dirt (and not at home with its 100s of brothers..).


The only gun I have experienced a failing extractor on was a M98K (in the form of a Norwegian m67); a wildcat with very little taper and loads on the ++P side was involved.
Get a new extractor, go out and have some quality time together and thrust will be back.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

This was tongue in cheek on an actual occurrence that , whilst I like my Mausers, shows they are not infallible , as some will claim. It could be an idea to check the extractor claw on ones firearm to ensure they are in good condition prior to a big hunt, or maybe carry a spare? I would hate for someone to get hurt if it occurred to a Hunter when facing an injured buffalo or heffalump ( childhood reference there) during a charge
And no one commented on my mutilation of the rose Royce song….
Gumpy

I thought Rolls Royce was a car?

You have inspired me to acquire backup extractors for both my 404 Mauser and 03A3 Springfield. I did slightly modify the Mauser extractor and its retaining ring so they snap together more easily. I might be persuaded to share that secret.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Gumpy

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Gumpy

Thanks. Believe that's the first time I've heard that song. Back in the good old days before rap when black folks actually carried a tune.

 

[BeeMaa]

@Grumpy gumpy - Sorry to hear about the betrayal and best of luck with the sale. Let me know if I can help you move into a Blaser R8.

 

[sgt_zim]

This was tongue in cheek on an actual occurrence that , whilst I like my Mausers, shows they are not infallible , as some will claim. It could be an idea to check the extractor claw on ones firearm to ensure they are in good condition prior to a big hunt, or maybe carry a spare? I would hate for someone to get hurt if it occurred to a Hunter when facing an injured buffalo or heffalump ( childhood reference there) during a charge
And no one commented on my mutilation of the rose Royce song….
Gumpy

But what about the woozles? Don't you think they're dangerous, too?

 

[Luvthunt]

Fact is: the rifle did not fail you.. you failed the rifle.. if you had not taken that shot you would still believe in the rifle…so fault is in the shooter.

 

[jgonzalez]

I am sorry to hear this Grumpy

I have just one question: was your extractor beveled to allow loading the rifle by snapping the extractor over a cartridge already in the chamber, and is this how you used it?

For info, here is what I had posted a while back on the issue:

The misguided practice of beveling the extractor to allow closing the bolt on a cartridge already in the chamber creates two issues:

1) Beveling a Mauser extractor to create the space for it to jump the rim inside the front bridge when closing the bolt, inevitably also creates the space for it to potentially jump the rim when opening the bolt, hence potentially fail to extract. The extractor therefore looses its "Mauser infallibility" and becomes no different from a Remington extractor, or Sako, or etc. etc.​

​

2) Removing material from the extractor to create the space for it to jump the rim automatically weakens it at the two points where it is already the most vulnerable, therefore it CANNOT be as strong as one designed not to do so (this is simple materials physics), AND it creates the possibility for the extractor to be flexed upward which inevitably causes metal fracture, visible when it breaks, or invisible when the fracture is internal before breaking, because it is forced to flex UPWARD, AGAINST ITS RADIUS (the extractor is not flat but radiused to the round contour of the bolt).​

Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as a "correctly beveled" extractor. The misunderstanding generally comes from the fact that folks typically do not understand which parts of the extractor is bevelled, and to what purpose. If in addition to beveling the top of the extractor, it is also beveled on the hook to facilitate it slipping over the cartridge in the chamber, this creates two weak points and a possibility of fracture of either or both the extracting hook and the extractor blade. I hope the drawing helps visualize...

If your extractor broke at either of these two points...
View attachment 661569
... the fix is simple and fail-proof: replace the extractor with one that has not been beveled. Your rifle will instantly return to the original Mauser design and will be 100% reliable.

If what I am discussing is your situation, your rifle did not betray you, but it was betrayed itself when the extractor was misguidedly beveled at the factory or later. Restoring it to its true Mauser design with an unbeveled extractor is easy and will return it to Mauser infallibility.

I hope this helps

Thank you very much for sharing this information

 

[Tex .416]

I am sorry to hear this Grumpy

I have just one question: was your extractor beveled to allow loading the rifle by snapping the extractor over a cartridge already in the chamber, and is this how you used it?

For info, here is what I had posted a while back on the issue:

The misguided practice of beveling the extractor to allow closing the bolt on a cartridge already in the chamber creates two issues:

1) Beveling a Mauser extractor to create the space for it to jump the rim inside the front bridge when closing the bolt, inevitably also creates the space for it to potentially jump the rim when opening the bolt, hence potentially fail to extract. The extractor therefore looses its "Mauser infallibility" and becomes no different from a Remington extractor, or Sako, or etc. etc.​

​

2) Removing material from the extractor to create the space for it to jump the rim automatically weakens it at the two points where it is already the most vulnerable, therefore it CANNOT be as strong as one designed not to do so (this is simple materials physics), AND it creates the possibility for the extractor to be flexed upward which inevitably causes metal fracture, visible when it breaks, or invisible when the fracture is internal before breaking, because it is forced to flex UPWARD, AGAINST ITS RADIUS (the extractor is not flat but radiused to the round contour of the bolt).​

Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as a "correctly beveled" extractor. The misunderstanding generally comes from the fact that folks typically do not understand which parts of the extractor is bevelled, and to what purpose. If in addition to beveling the top of the extractor, it is also beveled on the hook to facilitate it slipping over the cartridge in the chamber, this creates two weak points and a possibility of fracture of either or both the extracting hook and the extractor blade. I hope the drawing helps visualize...

If your extractor broke at either of these two points...
View attachment 661569
... the fix is simple and fail-proof: replace the extractor with one that has not been beveled. Your rifle will instantly return to the original Mauser design and will be 100% reliable.

If what I am discussing is your situation, your rifle did not betray you, but it was betrayed itself when the extractor was misguidedly beveled at the factory or later. Restoring it to its true Mauser design with an unbeveled extractor is easy and will return it to Mauser infallibility.

I hope this helps

Excellent post, very informative.

 

[Certus]

Fact is: the rifle did not fail you.. you failed the rifle.. if you had not taken that shot you would still believe in the rifle…so fault is in the shooter.

He has a point. A Mauser that is loved, cared for and not made to work will never fail.

 

[KIH]

Is it OK to load the Mauser M98 with the +1 cartridge like:

A. press the +1 cartridge down on top of the other cartridges so all is somewhat pressed down in the magazine. Hold the cartridges like that when pushing the bolt forward so the +1 is pushed forward, load in the chamber with the rim sliding in under the extractor claw.

B. Same as A but in addition press on the extractor (somewhat mid extractor) so the extrector claw give the cartridge rim is given bether space.

A can be done without rounding of the extractor. But will B over time weaken the claw hold on the rim?

 

[roklok]

The 1903 Springfield is designed specifically to be single loaded and have the extractor snap over the case rim. They have a magazine cutoff, and single rounds commonly loaded with magazine held in reserve, at least that was the military doctrine when the 03 was in development. It would not be practical to load every single round with the care needed to have the rim under extractor. According to de Haas the 1917 Enfield was also designed to snap the extractor over the case rim, and can confirm they do so easily, at least mine does. The 98 Mauser ? I am not sure about. My Zastava .375 H&H will snap the extractor over the case rim, but takes more effort than a 1917 Enfield. I try not to do this, when fully loading rifle I partially depress the 4th round to be chambered into the magazine so it will fit under extractor. I fumbled loading the fourth round on my recent buffalo hunt on one occasion, and the round ended up chambered in front of extractor. I was thankful that my extractor does snap over a chambered round as I did not have a cleaning rod handy. My 7x57 built on a commercial FN action will not snap extractor over rim of a chambered round, at least not with any amount of force I was willing to attempt. I would not hunt dangerous game with a rifle that will not snap the extractor over a chambered round, as the potential for problems is too high.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The 1903 Springfield is designed specifically to be single loaded and have the extractor snap over the case rim. They have a magazine cutoff, and single rounds commonly loaded with magazine held in reserve, at least that was the military doctrine when the 03 was in development. It would not be practical to load every single round with the care needed to have the rim under extractor. According to de Haas the 1917 Enfield was also designed to snap the extractor over the case rim, and can confirm they do so easily, at least mine does. The 98 Mauser ? I am not sure about. My Zastava .375 H&H will snap the extractor over the case rim, but takes more effort than a 1917 Enfield. I try not to do this, when fully loading rifle I partially depress the 4th round to be chambered into the magazine so it will fit under extractor. I fumbled loading the fourth round on my recent buffalo hunt on one occasion, and the round ended up chambered in front of extractor. I was thankful that my extractor does snap over a chambered round as I did not have a cleaning rod handy. My 7x57 built on a commercial FN action will not snap extractor over rim of a chambered round, at least not with any amount of force I was willing to attempt. I would not hunt dangerous game with a rifle that will not snap the extractor over a chambered round, as the potential for problems is too high.

The magazine cutoff on 03A3 is also the bolt release. Most sporterized Springfields have stocks that do not allow the lever to be flipped all the way down for magazine cutoff, only half way to position two for bolt release. It's a helluva lot easier to simply depress the full magazine with fingertips of left hand while cradling the rifle under the floorplate, then drop a cartridge in the chamber and close the bolt with right hand. That magazine cutoff lever is a SOB to pry away from the side of receiver in position one "OFF".

I always thought the magazine cutoff position three "ON" was for drill inspection so the bolt could be opened and closed on empty magazine without catching on the blind faced follower. Most of us who sporterize these guns grind the end of follower on an angle so the bolt doesn't catch on it when magazine is empty. My dad, who used 03A3 in combat situations, never used the magazine cutoff lever except to remove the bolt. Neither stock fitted to his/my Springfield would allow the cutoff lever into "ON" position. I cannot imagine soldiers in combat ever used it to load the sixth round (magazine holds five 30-06). Just too much hassle.

Both my Springfield and 98 Mauser in 404 will allow the +1 round to be pushed under the claw on top of a full magazine and then bolt closes without picking up top cartridge in the magazine (the 404 just barely does it). Until last year I didn't know this was even possible. It's definitely the best way to load the +1 round. Nevertheless, I wouldn't own a CRF rifle that wasn't capable of snap over, ESPECIALLY a dangerous game rifle.

I'm thinking the thumb notch cut into the left side of military 98 Mauser receivers was for the purpose of depressing the full magazine so the bolt could be closed on a round dropped in the chamber ( = snap over). I cannot see any other purpose for that notch unless it was needed for stripper clip, but that seems unlikely. It's usually described as necessary for loading the magazine but that doesn't make any sense either. The gun is held with left hand and loaded with right hand. Notch is only accessible to left hand.

 

[One Day...]

Changing a 98 Mauser extractor is very easy. Can be done by anyone, even in the field.

I have yet to see a military 98 Mauser extractor that did NOT have the "defective" modifications described above. The extractor that was in my Czech vz.24 when I built it into 404J was clearly unmodified military and it had the "modifications" to claw face and forward end of blade to allow snap over. While it would not surprise me if military manuals advised against closing the bolt on a cartridge dropped in the chamber, it certainly would have been foolish to not machine the extractors to perform snap over in the event a soldier dropped a shell in the chamber either inadvertently or in the heat of a desperate firefight. My Springfield 03A3 has a similarly shaped extractor. I have been snapping over at the range with it since 1964. I didn't know any different. My dad used an 03A3 in combat and he showed me how it's done. I have practiced snap over on my 404 with dummy rounds at least several hundred times. Only issues were shitty RWS brass that was too short (head space incorrect) and has inconsistent rim thickness (both issues cured by switching to Hornady brass) Also, the extractor initially had too much spring tension. This finally became apparent when I could not remove the extractor from the bolt without prying it off with a screwdriver. Extractors are supposed to snap off with finger pressure. To adjust the tension I slightly reshaped the extractor blade by carefully bending it. This also greatly improved bolt face pickup of cartridges from the magazine. Of course, I had to significantly modify the 8mm claw face to accommodate much wider 404J rim. I followed Duane Weibe's instructions and reshaped the extractor to where it would just barely hold it on the bolt face when bolt is removed from the action. I agree with him: a dangerous game rifle is not a dangerous game rifle if it won't snap over on a cartridge dropped in the chamber.

If Mauser extractors were not supposed to snap over, why would the bolts and extractors be machined to make the claw of extractor release from the bolt in forward pressure (closing the bolt) so it can jump over the rim and then lock the extractor to the bolt when the bolt is drawn back to extract? Remove your bolt and you will see how the extractor moves ever so slightly forward and back. The keeper at the head of extractor is smaller than the groove in the bolt head. It's not sloppy machining. That keeper and the groove have a unique shape on the forward face, a hook if you will, that locks the extractor when the bolt is drawn back, but releases the extractor when it's pushed forward. The extractor spring tension was initially so severe that it was not allowing it to move and the extractor was staying locked to the keeper groove during loading which caused sloping shouldered 404 case to be shoved too far into the chamber. Snap over failed. Of course, this would not be an issue with belted cartridges. Then the extractor would either come unlocked or possibly break as belt on case forcibly maintains head space. Check your extractor spring tension!

Here's my 98 Mauser extractor.
View attachment 661584View attachment 661585View attachment 661586View attachment 661587
And here's a couple of military 98 Mauser extractors for sale on eBay right now.
View attachment 661588View attachment 661589View attachment 661590
Clearly these military Mauser extractors were designed to snap over.

You apparently have never handled an unmodified original military Mauser rifle produced by Mauser............

I guarantee you that you CANNOT close the bolt over a round in the chamber with them. THAT was the entire purpose of the Mauser extractor design: 1) prevent 1900's paysant conscripts who had never handled a bolt action rifle in their life to double feed; 2) prevent accidental firing by closing the bolt on top of a cartridge accidentally left in the chamber; 3) prevent extraction failure by making it physically impossible for the extractor to jump the rim of the cartridge extraction groove.

The umpteenth iterations of Mauser clones have progressively departed from the original design in order to "improve" the action. Most changed the extractor shape AND cut a deep clearance on the right tenon raceway to allow the extractor to snap over a cartridge in the chamber. Crime of ignorance...

And FYI in an emergency reload on the run (I mean physically running) it is much more reliable and faster to click a cartridge in the magazine, than it is to try to insert one in the chamber making sure that it aligns and the tip or flat of the bullet does not catch on the square rear edge of the barrel. Do not believe me, try it for yourself...

But hey, to each their own.............

 

[One Day...]

This was tongue in cheek on an actual occurrence that , whilst I like my Mausers, shows they are not infallible , as some will claim. It could be an idea to check the extractor claw on ones firearm to ensure they are in good condition prior to a big hunt, or maybe carry a spare? I would hate for someone to get hurt if it occurred to a Hunter when facing an injured buffalo or heffalump ( childhood reference there) during a charge
And no one commented on my mutilation of the rose Royce song….
Gumpy

Please do not take it the wrong way, but you do not have a Mauser. You have a Parker Hale Mauser-system clone. BIIIIIIGGGG difference...

Not a fault of yours, many many folks are confused on this issue and the characteristics of the original Mauser are very much misunderstood at large...

Paul Mauser (and the German Imperial Army) saw it as a liability to be able to close the action on a cartridge in the chamber. See above post.

I agree with their assessment.

Actually, the only deadly hunting accident that I personally and reliably know of (but was not involved in, it happened to a friend) involved a rifle handled by a group of folks in camp to check feeding, and that in the general melee ended up with its action closed on a live round that no one realized had been pushed in the chamber. When the handling around was finished, there was no round in the magazine or raceway, hence the rifle was assumed to be empty, the action was closed, the trigger was hit while the rifle was moved around the vehicle, the rifle fired, one woman died. Sure, a long series of gun handling safety violations took place, but an unmodified genuine original Mauser action would not have killed that woman. Each will draw their own conclusions...

As to whether an unmodified Mauser action is slower to reload an emergency round, see above post, the fact is, it is not. Try it on the run without looking at the rifle...

 

[One Day...]

Is it OK to load the Mauser M98 with the +1 cartridge like:

A. press the +1 cartridge down on top of the other cartridges so all is somewhat pressed down in the magazine. Hold the cartridges like that when pushing the bolt forward so the +1 is pushed forward, load in the chamber with the rim sliding in under the extractor claw.

B. Same as A but in addition press on the extractor (somewhat mid extractor) so the extrector claw give the cartridge rim is given bether space.

A can be done without rounding of the extractor. But will B over time weaken the claw hold on the rim?

The way you wrote infers a question: "Is it OK", but there is no question mark (?), so you may have wanted to state rather than ask, in which case this reply only confirms.

But assuming that this was a question, the answer is yes, it is entirely OK. "A" describes the right way to do it

 

[Ontario Hunter]

You apparently have never handled an unmodified original military Mauser rifle produced by Mauser............

I guarantee you that you cannot close the bolt over a round in the chamber with them. THAT was the entire purpose of the Mauser extractor design: 1) prevent 1900's paysant recruits who had never handled a bolt action rifle in their hand to double feed; 2) prevent accidental firing by closing the bolt on top of a cartridge accidentally left in the chamber; 3) prevent extraction failure by making it physically impossible for the extractor to jump the rim of the cartridge extraction groove.

The umpteenth iterations of Mauser clones have progressively departed from the original design in order to "improve" the action. Most changed the extractor shape AND cut a deep clearance on the right tenon raceway to allow the extractor to snap over a cartridge in the chamber. Crime of ignorance...

And FYI in an emergency reload on the run (I mean physically running) it is much more reliable and faster to click a cartridge in the magazine, than it is to try to insert one in the chamber making sure that it aligns and does not catch on the square edge of the barrel. Do not believe me, try it for yourself...

But hey, to each their own.............

I have dropped rounds in the chambers and closed the bolts of both my Mauser and Springfield hundreds of times if I've done it once. No issues whatsoever. Never snagged on the "square edge of the barrel". Never had a double feed and certainly never had an accidental discharge trying to push a cartridge from magazine into one already dropped in the chamber, which could occur no matter what shape extractor or whether CRF or push feed. Always a possibility with any bolt action operated by mentally handicapped.

You can say that pushing a cartridge under the rail can be done more expeditiously than dropping a round in the chamber of empty rifle and closing the bolt, but I think anyone can see that claim doesn't hold water. My extensive experience confirms it. If I was running from a buffalo or enemy bullets, I could drop a round in the chamber of an empty rifle and close the bolt without looking, but stuffing a shell under the rail requires looking into the magazine which means taking my "eyes off the road." I have to look down to ensure the cartridge is actually under the rail completely.

I posted images of the extractor from my Czech clone and the military 98 Mauser extractors sold on ebay. I don't see any difference. In fact, my Czech Mauser's extractor may be military non-clone. It did not fit the bolt as well as it probably should have and it has a peculiar anchor proof mark at the bottom end.

Again, I will defer to Duane Weibe who insists that a Mauser that won't snap over is not worthy of dangerous game. An enemy soldier is the most dangerous of dangerous game.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Please do not take it the wrong way, but you do not have a Mauser. You have a Parker Hale Mauser-system clone. BIIIIIIGGGG difference...

Not a fault of yours, many many folks are confused on this issue and the characteristics of the original Mauser are very much misunderstood at large...

Paul Mauser (and the German Imperial Army) saw it as a liability to be able to close the action on a cartridge in the chamber. See above post.

I agree with their assessment.

Actually, the only deadly hunting accident that I personally and reliably know of (but was not involved in, it happened to a friend) involved a rifle handled by a group of folks in camp to check feeding, and that in the general melee ended up with its action closed on a live round that no one realized had been pushed in the chamber. When the handling around was finished, there was no round in the magazine or raceway, hence the rifle was assumed to be empty, the action was closed, the trigger was hit while the rifle was moved around the vehicle, the rifle fired, one woman died. Sure, a long series of gun handling safety violations took place, but an unmodified genuine original Mauser action would not have killed that woman. Each will draw their own conclusions...

As to whether an unmodified Mauser action is slower to reload an emergency round, see above post, the fact is, it is not. Try it on the run without looking at the rifle...

Ummm, no.
It is a military Mauser action. It is one of the numerous actions that were "repurposed " after WW2, they had most of their markings removed, it still has faint waffenamts on the side of the receiver and the bottom metal that came with it still has one inside. Parker hale didn’t make their clones, as you put it, till later on
Gumpy