One Day...
AH elite
OK, let us try to salvage something here...
1) Nobody insulted or provoked you @308W, you asked for opinions, and received them.
2) The fact that these opinions are in their vast majority not aligned with yours is not a personal attack.
3) People (myself included) supplied data on bullet weight, bullet type, velocity, drop, energy, etc. not to be "ostentatious" (I think that is the term you used about me) but to substantiate and explain the advice they gave you, as you requested.
4) The fact that this data is not aligned with your expectations is not a personal attack.
5) Many of us who have actually hunted in Africa have had different experiences from what we have seen in America or Europe, as exemplified lastly by @flat8 or @WAB (I could also talk to you about my eland who got both shoulder pulverized, both lungs turned to pulp, and the top of its heart exploded by a 250 gr Partition launched from a .340 WBY at 2,940 fps with 4,400 ft/lbs of energy, and who did not understand that he was dead and took off at a gallop !?!?!? ). What we have collectively tried to pass on to you is an experience where we have learned that it is OK to hope for what we think we know, but it is better to be prepared for TIA ("This Is Africa!").
6) Therefore when you say 0 to 200 kg (440 lbs) and 0 to 500 meters (550 yd), the African hunting community thinks: "OK, no problem with 100 kg at 200 meters, and he probably knows that, but 200 kg at 500 m is outside of the comfortable .308 Win envelope. Since he is asking for advice, let us share with him that he will be operating with very little, if any, safety margin." This is why people have focused on the harder part of the envelope you defined. The easier part is just simple: "go and enjoy," and people (me included) told you so repeatedly.
6) The fact that you chose to respond to well intended advice, that you requested, with what is perceived in the US as dismissive and out-of-line comments, and, honestly, sometimes quite shocking statements (re. loosing 3 animals before starting to listen) may reflect a difference of culture or sense of humor (?), but it has not helped you. Additionally, you are talking to a number of folks with solid character here, so you should not be surprised that their reaction to you pushing the envelope of courtesy, is to push back...
So, to try to summarize:
I - the established wisdom for the last century has been that to somewhat compensate for smaller caliber in Africa it is wise to shoot heavier bullets; hence people on this thread (me included) likely think about heavy bullets;
II - heavy bullets cannot be launched very fast from cartridge with relatively small powder capacity; hence they offer an arcing trajectory, low energy (although many of us prefer penetration to energy as a benchmark, but energy still says something), and low impact velocity;
III - anyone with any shooting experience knows that arcing trajectories make hitting at longer range more difficult; hence the advice to shoot closer;
IV - the established wisdom for a long time has been that it takes ~1,000 ft/lbs to kill a deer with a reasonable safety margin, ~1,500 ft/lbs for an elk, and that somehow, for some unexplained reason, African game is significantly 'tougher' than European or American game. Also, the established wisdom is that it takes about 2,000 fps of velocity for most modern tough bullets (as we assume you would use in Africa) to expand properly; hence, when we state that at the top of your envelope (200 kg at 500 m) your chosen caliber will perform below these two minimums (1,800 fps and 1,300 ft/lbs), we are not "inventing useless data" (I think this is the way you characterized my post), we are just telling you what the facts are, and we are pointing out that you not only do not have any safety margin anymore, but you are below the minimums. It may still work because luck is a huge random factor, but it may not.
Yes, some like @KMG Hunting Safaris have been exploring getting faster velocity from the .308 Win by shooting very light for caliber bullets, but a 130 gr .308 bullet has significantly lower sectional density and significantly lower ballistic coefficient, which established wisdom does not recommend for tough game. Modern mono-metal "expanding solids" certainly address some of these drawbacks, and many of us (me included) consider shooting 165 gr such bullets instead of 180 gr traditional bullets out of our .300 mag, but few are those who advocate 130 gr as an ideal bullet weight for a .308. You are certainly free to go that route.
It seems that a gentleman's way to conclude this thread would to thank those who took the time to provide the advice you requested, apologize for some uncalled sarcasms, and make your own choice, whichever it may be.
This post is way too long and I apologize to the community for it, but I find it sad that what should be a relaxing and educating pleasure for all of us (contributing to this thread) may have turned into an exercise in frustration. I suspect that none of us need that.
1) Nobody insulted or provoked you @308W, you asked for opinions, and received them.
2) The fact that these opinions are in their vast majority not aligned with yours is not a personal attack.
3) People (myself included) supplied data on bullet weight, bullet type, velocity, drop, energy, etc. not to be "ostentatious" (I think that is the term you used about me) but to substantiate and explain the advice they gave you, as you requested.
4) The fact that this data is not aligned with your expectations is not a personal attack.
5) Many of us who have actually hunted in Africa have had different experiences from what we have seen in America or Europe, as exemplified lastly by @flat8 or @WAB (I could also talk to you about my eland who got both shoulder pulverized, both lungs turned to pulp, and the top of its heart exploded by a 250 gr Partition launched from a .340 WBY at 2,940 fps with 4,400 ft/lbs of energy, and who did not understand that he was dead and took off at a gallop !?!?!? ). What we have collectively tried to pass on to you is an experience where we have learned that it is OK to hope for what we think we know, but it is better to be prepared for TIA ("This Is Africa!").
6) Therefore when you say 0 to 200 kg (440 lbs) and 0 to 500 meters (550 yd), the African hunting community thinks: "OK, no problem with 100 kg at 200 meters, and he probably knows that, but 200 kg at 500 m is outside of the comfortable .308 Win envelope. Since he is asking for advice, let us share with him that he will be operating with very little, if any, safety margin." This is why people have focused on the harder part of the envelope you defined. The easier part is just simple: "go and enjoy," and people (me included) told you so repeatedly.
6) The fact that you chose to respond to well intended advice, that you requested, with what is perceived in the US as dismissive and out-of-line comments, and, honestly, sometimes quite shocking statements (re. loosing 3 animals before starting to listen) may reflect a difference of culture or sense of humor (?), but it has not helped you. Additionally, you are talking to a number of folks with solid character here, so you should not be surprised that their reaction to you pushing the envelope of courtesy, is to push back...
So, to try to summarize:
I - the established wisdom for the last century has been that to somewhat compensate for smaller caliber in Africa it is wise to shoot heavier bullets; hence people on this thread (me included) likely think about heavy bullets;
II - heavy bullets cannot be launched very fast from cartridge with relatively small powder capacity; hence they offer an arcing trajectory, low energy (although many of us prefer penetration to energy as a benchmark, but energy still says something), and low impact velocity;
III - anyone with any shooting experience knows that arcing trajectories make hitting at longer range more difficult; hence the advice to shoot closer;
IV - the established wisdom for a long time has been that it takes ~1,000 ft/lbs to kill a deer with a reasonable safety margin, ~1,500 ft/lbs for an elk, and that somehow, for some unexplained reason, African game is significantly 'tougher' than European or American game. Also, the established wisdom is that it takes about 2,000 fps of velocity for most modern tough bullets (as we assume you would use in Africa) to expand properly; hence, when we state that at the top of your envelope (200 kg at 500 m) your chosen caliber will perform below these two minimums (1,800 fps and 1,300 ft/lbs), we are not "inventing useless data" (I think this is the way you characterized my post), we are just telling you what the facts are, and we are pointing out that you not only do not have any safety margin anymore, but you are below the minimums. It may still work because luck is a huge random factor, but it may not.
Yes, some like @KMG Hunting Safaris have been exploring getting faster velocity from the .308 Win by shooting very light for caliber bullets, but a 130 gr .308 bullet has significantly lower sectional density and significantly lower ballistic coefficient, which established wisdom does not recommend for tough game. Modern mono-metal "expanding solids" certainly address some of these drawbacks, and many of us (me included) consider shooting 165 gr such bullets instead of 180 gr traditional bullets out of our .300 mag, but few are those who advocate 130 gr as an ideal bullet weight for a .308. You are certainly free to go that route.
It seems that a gentleman's way to conclude this thread would to thank those who took the time to provide the advice you requested, apologize for some uncalled sarcasms, and make your own choice, whichever it may be.
This post is way too long and I apologize to the community for it, but I find it sad that what should be a relaxing and educating pleasure for all of us (contributing to this thread) may have turned into an exercise in frustration. I suspect that none of us need that.
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