Muzzle Energy vs Recoil vs Rifle Weight for Dangerous Game

[grand veneur]

Hunters who want to buy a big bore rifle nowadays have many options. 40 years ago things were different for us. Only the cartridges 375 H&H Magnum or 458 Winchester Magnum and rifles for it were available. RWS still manufactured cartridges in caliber 10,75x68 and 10,75x73/ 404 Jeffery, but no rifles of this caliber were built. The cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum was already on the market, but for many reasons it was not able to establish itself. It was not until the 1990s that one big bore cartridge after another was revived. Over time everything or almost was available again so that everyone can choose a suitable cartridge according to their taste and needs for hunting big game. Nevertheless, some people still do not choose the cartridges that are best suited for hunting big game.

 

[sgt_zim]

Hunters who want to buy a big bore rifle nowadays have many options. 40 years ago things were different for us. Only the cartridges 375 H&H Magnum or 458 Winchester Magnum and rifles for it were available. RWS still manufactured cartridges in caliber 10,75x68 and 10,75x73/ 404 Jeffery, but no rifles of this caliber were built. The cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum was already on the market, but for many reasons it was not able to establish itself. It was not until the 1990s that one big bore cartridge after another was revived. Over time everything or almost was available again so that everyone can choose a suitable cartridge according to their taste and needs for hunting big game. Nevertheless, some people still do not choose the cartridges that are best suited for hunting big game.

I don't know about "many" reasons for 460 Wby's lack of acceptance. I'd guess there's one reason: what is the purpose of a 500 gr bullet scooting along at 2500 fps, and the recoil that goes with?

I mean sure, it still has more energy at 300 yards than my pokey little 404J loads have at 100, but is shooting at DG from 300 yards a thing?

From Hornady XI manual:

Our test rifle was very accurate, with three shot groups of a minute of angle or less frequently obtained. In shooting this data, we found a twenty-five pound bag of lead shot between the shoulder and the buttstock was necessary to prevent badly bruised shoulders. Our test rifle also had a muzzle brake, which is intended to limit muzzle jump. However, with anything having as much recoil as the 460 Weatherby Magnum and considering the amount of shooting necessary, the shoulder protection was still necessary.

Old Roy created a solution to a problem that never existed.

The Barrett M82A1 sitting in my office a couple feet from me doesn't have recoil that bad, even firing 750 gr bullets at 2700 fps. Then again, it's right at 30 lbs.

 

[uplander01]

We are in much the same situation with rifles. There is no way I will use them all, but it justifies effort to try, and I like having the small collection. I don't have a 375 over 9.25lb un-scoped and recoil is easy to manage in my opinion. I will say when you go straight to a 10.25 500 Jeffery it is a vastly different feel, much more difficult. For now I'm hooked on the 40's, 60 ft lbs of recoil from a 9.75-10 lb rifle is my comfort level where it's all still pretty manageable and I don't feel any ill effects after a lengthy session, the rifles are still very tolerable to carry all day as well. My calculations using the JBM recoil calculator for an 11.5 pound 470 NE are different than yours, at 2130 fps handloads I'm showing low 60's ft lbs recoil which is super easy to manage IMO. The saddling up on a 505 or 500J loaded to 2400 fps is better man than me. My 500J load a 2280 fps from a 10.25lb rifle shows 87 ft lbs of recoil, the high limit for this guy. I personnaly would not be interested in getting to 100 or over ft lbs of recoil. Whether you want to admit it or not, most would have ancillary problems from repeatedly doing that to your body IMO.

 

[Philip Glass]

Some members have shot 50 or more species of African animals with one rifle, in most cases a .375 H&H. I am not one of them. I have loved firearms since 1972 and since then, seem to have collected more than I need. Concerning dangerous game (DG) rifles chambered in .375 H&H and more powerful cartridges, I have more than I have safaris that I will take. Of my rifles of different chamberings (cartridges), for any safari I must decide on what cartridges I need or perhaps want to use for dangerous game.

The table below is a simple comparison of attributes of DG cartridges based on common factory and hand loads. Notice that the lowly .375 H&H has 4300 ft. lbs. of energy! With proper shot placement this will kill large elephants has has done so since 1911! For a 10.5 lb. rifle (total weight of loaded rifle with scope and sling, if any) the recoil generated in slightly less than 40 lbs. at a rearward velocity of 15.65 FPS. While this is twice that of a lighter 30-06, it is very manageable by most adult men and many women.

Increasing total rifle weight by one pound or slightly more than 9% also reduces the recoil by 9%. For a .375 this may not seem like much but reducing recoil of a 458 Lott or 500 Nitro by 9% will be noticeable by most shooters! Also, for rifles with the same total weight, the 470 Nitro popular in modern double rifles has twice the recoil energy as does the 375.

Decreasing bullet weight or selecting a faster burning powder that requires less weight to produce the same velocity will reduce recoil.

View attachment 622873

Looking at the 458 Winchester we find the old standard of 5000 ft. lbs. of energy at 2150 muzzle velocity. This was what the much older 450 Nitro produced which was very effective on elephants. All but two of the listed cartridges generate near or over 5000 ft. lbs. of energy. Even the 404 Jeffery has 4700 ft. lbs. of energy. No wonder it has such a great reputation as an effective DG killer. Let us not forget that even the somewhat lower power 375 H&H and 450/400 have taken more than their fair share of elephant and other dangerous game! Power (like speed) is good, accuracy is final!

Some cartridges such as the 404 Jeffery created in 1906 and the 416 Rigby from 1911 have greater muzzle velocity and power than when created. They are now loaded with much better gunpowder than the temperature unstable Cordite of their era. As for their killing effectiveness, the bullets available today are much more effective than those of a century ago!

Don’t forget bore diameter in relation to killing effectiveness. That’s the secret to John Taylor’s rating of Knock Out Blow (or factor), bore diameter times projective weight times velocity, divided by 7000,
i.e. (.375 x 300 x 2250)/7000 = 40

The Knock Out Blow makes sense in the greater the bullet diameter, the faster transfer of energy to the target. This also explains why all other things being equal and with the same muzzle energy, a smaller .416 Rigby even with 20% less bullet weight, will penetrate further than the larger .458 Winchester.

Please use this simple table to compare muzzle energy and its inverse, recoil energy and velocity. Hopefully all will find their happy balance of a powerful, personally accurate rifle at a good carry weight for their dangerous game safari!

Note: Above information is intended for those who are trying to wrap their brains around all of this. I hope it helps!

My eyes go directly to comparing the .450/400 to the .470. My neck agrees with your numbers!

 

[Luvthunt]

Mark,
I thank you again for the time and thought put into the table.

 

[skydiver386]

My take from all of this may be different from others, but it's been consistent for a number of years.

1. Use enough gun

2. Use enough gun weight for the caliber of that gun.

3. Have enough man behind the gun to handle the recoil of the gun and caliber combination.

4. Shoot often enough that you gain skill and recoil tolerance to the gun.

As Clint Eastwood said "A man has to know his limitations".

 

[ActionBob]

Nice work Mark. I think the loading that led to the 404J having a relatively low recoil reputation was closer to the 450/400 at 2150 fps. Most all these cases can do more if you load them hot, which most often isn’t needed or useful.

Is the 2nd table correct when it lists the 404Jeffery and 416Rigby as having identical ballistics? A 400grn @ 2400FPS, I always thought the 416 Rigby had 150fps advantage on the 404 Jeffery. Don't own either, so I could be wrong.

I believe you guys are correct. Hornady loads the Jeffrey hot at 2300 fps. I bought a case of 200 rounds of Federal solids loaded to 2170 for @Just Gina to practice with. However she hunts with Hornady as it is the most accurate in her rifle. She has been commenting how she never feels any recoil when shooting it at game. And this from my skinny little wife I can pick up with one arm In fact she chose that 404 Jeffrey as her Plains Game rifle over the 275 Rigby HS we had with on our recent hunt. She doesn't like tracking to follow up game so appreciated the Hammer of Thor effect

I'm quite sure the original loading for the 404 Jeffrey was 2150 fps. And it was quite effective at that. I'm sure it still is. Now that we are set up to reload, we will be experimenting to try and find an accurate load for Gina's rifle at that lower velocity.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I believe you guys are correct. Hornady loads the Jeffrey hot at 2300 fps. I bought a case of 200 rounds of Federal solids loaded to 2170 for @Just Gina to practice with. However she hunts with Hornady as it is the most accurate in her rifle. She has been commenting how she never feels any recoil when shooting it at game. And this from my skinny little wife I can pick up with one arm In fact she chose that 404 Jeffrey as her Plains Game rifle over the 275 Rigby HS we had with on our recent hunt. She doesn't like tracking to follow up game so appreciated the Hammer of Thor effect

I'm quite sure the original loading for the 404 Jeffrey was 2150 fps. And it was quite effective at that. I'm sure it still is. Now that we are set up to reload, we will be experimenting to try and find an accurate load for Gina's rifle at that lower velocity.

Good to know. I'm seeing Hornady 404 ammo available now and prices coming down, but I'm not interested in 2400 fps recoil behind 400 gr bullets. It's just not needed. However, the brass is almost worth the price. I may still order a box, pound out the bullets, and reload more sensibly. At $135/box of twenty cartridges it would still almost be worth it if I could determine what powder Hornady is using so it could be recycled. But I'm sure it's a trade secret.

 

[Tra3]

I ,for one, appreciate Marks work, however when I am shooting at Game I seldom if ever feel any recoil. Particularly if it is even a little exciting!

I agree that recoil is magically absent when shooting game.
But the practicing…

I’m glad I can practice with my .375 and not develop a flinch. But that is about my upper limit. I’d love to test one of the bigger rifles on the list. Maybe AH.con can start a R8 barrel exchange program for loaning barrels for upcoming hunts.

I appreciate reading the chart! @Mark A Ouellette

 

[ActionBob]

Good to know. I'm seeing Hornady 404 ammo available now and prices coming down, but I'm not interested in 2400 fps recoil behind 400 gr bullets. It's just not needed. However, the brass is almost worth the price. I may still order a box, pound out the bullets, and reload more sensibly. At $135/box of twenty cartridges it would still almost be worth it if I could determine what powder Hornady is using so it could be recycled. But I'm sure it's a trade secret.

I'm not an experienced hand loader but they post the velocity, or you could fire a couple over a chronograph. Then if you dumped and weighed the powder couldn't you figure it out somewhat close?

And the Hornady ammo we have is loaded to 2300 fps, not 2400 fps. So perhaps you could use use #3 LOL

My take from all of this may be different from others, but it's been consistent for a number of years.

1. Use enough gun

2. Use enough gun weight for the caliber of that gun.

3. Have enough man behind the gun to handle the recoil of the gun and caliber combination.

4. Shoot often enough that you gain skill and recoil tolerance to the gun.

As Clint Eastwood said "A man has to know his limitations".

 

[Fatback]

I am not a hand loader but I’ve sent components to Safari Arms for my 404 Jeffery and had them loaded to a MV of 2150 ft/sec. This is with 400 grain AFrames and 400 grain Barnes Solids and they have preformed well for me without any issues. The recoil is stout but tolerable and I just don’t see a need to have them going any faster. YMMV.

 

[Ruraldoc]

Thanks for all the work puting this together. Can you add the 416 Remington? I think it would be the same as your 404 Jeffery number since powder charges and bullet weighs are nearly identical when both are loaded to the same pressure and velocity.

 

[Nyati]

I want to thank Mark for his table

It´s really useful for those who unlike him, or myself, enjoy reading about ballistics and guns and make our own calculations.

 

[grand veneur]

Thanks for all the work puting this together. Can you add the 416 Remington? I think it would be the same as your 404 Jeffery number since powder charges and bullet weighs are nearly identical when both are loaded to the same pressure and velocity.

I don't think that one should compare the cartridge 416 Remington Magnum with the cartridge 404 Jeffery.

The cartridge 404 Jeffery as well as the cartridges 450/400 Nitro Express and 425 Westley Richards which is not mentioned here and which is superior to the other two, despite everything are transitional concepts from the black Powder era. You can see this in the design of the shells, but that does not mean they are bad cartridges. They have proven themselves and that is why they are still in use. The cartridge 416 Remington Magnum is more comparable to the cartridge 416 Rigby, the latter being the first really modern cartridge in the class of the medium big bores.

 

[ActionBob]

I have to say thanks as well. I especially appreciate the easy to understand explanations. I would not at this point in life be able to take the time to collect that data together.

 

[Goat416]

Thanks for sharing the topic and data. As someone who owns several dangerous game (DG) rifles ranging from .375 H&H up to .470 NE, I find it interesting to take them out to the range and shoot a few shots from each in a relatively short period of time. The felt recoil is very different for each caliber, influenced a lot by several factors including the design of the rifle, how well the gun fits the shooter, and the bullet-powder combination.

At the end of the day, the guns I tend to shoot best are the rifles that I have the most confidence in and also fit me well. Start with the calculated data, but ultimately select the rifle you can use most effectively to take dangerous game.

 

[Tanks]

God, I must be a gun nerd as well. I have all but three of those books though I have a few others as well. I would really recommend this one for those interested in competing.

 

[Saul]

The Barrett M82A1 sitting in my office a couple feet from me doesn't have recoil that bad, even firing 750 gr bullets at 2700 fps. Then again, it's right at 30 lbs.

You must have the best office.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Several readers commented about a cartridge is not 2400 fps or how about the 416 Remington, stock design and fit affects felt recoil and so on. Yes, yes, and Yes!

How a stock is designed and how a stock “fits” the shooter will increase or decrease what is known as “felt” recoil. The actual recoil will be the same but the shooter will perceive more or even less felt recoil depending on the rifle’s stock. Stock design is a whole other subject.

I provided examples of cartridges based on what I would shoot. Example is the 404 Jeffery. There is load data available for 400 grain bullets at 2400 fps muzzle velocity. For this, I also selected loads using slower burning powders that require more grains than do those with faster burning powders. For the highest muzzle velocities with the same bullet weight, slower powders are required to keep peak pressures within what is safe for the rifle. The result is the loads I selected are near the highest velocities and recoil. I provided the link to Shooters Calculator dot com for readers to insert the values of their desired rifle and cartridge.

As for the cartridges I did not include, oh well… Look guys and gals, I selected what seemed the most popular cartridges or those representative of them. Representative? WTF? Well, the 416 Rigby pushed to 2400 fps, and it could be safely loaded to higher velocities, with a 400 grain bullet provides the SAME energy and bullet trajectory as the 416 Remington. Big Green (Remmy) will have less recoil energy due to less powder required for that velocity from the smaller case capacity. The high pressure 416 Remington has almost 16% LESS recoil than larger case capacity (designed for lower pressure) 416 Rigby!

As far as the slew of European cartridges like the 9.3 by this and that, go ahead and use the shooterscalculator.com of similar tools to figure it out. If you need help, just ask. Most of our members will gladly assist others in learning.

In the table below, I added a 404 Jeffery at 2300 fps like the Federal factory load. I corrected a mistake in the 404 Jeffery 10.5 lb rifle recoil, and add a couple Weatherby cartridges.

 

[Tanks]

If you look at the Taylor KO numbers, you will understand why my PH will not let anyone with a .375 take a frontal brain shot on big bodied elephants. A near miss on the brain and the next thing you know the elephant is across the Botswana border and you are out of the trophy fee. He asks them to go for a side brain or as he puts it "brisket".