Model 70 extractor problems

[M70375!]

Just got a model 70 458 win push feed, wondering if anyone has ever had an extractor fail in these rifles

 

[ldmay375]

I have no personal experience with them.
But, Finn Aagaard stated that he had "personally experienced extraction failures with three different post-'64 Model 70 Winchesters, two of them being.458s.
The Model 70 extractors quit due to dust and crud accumulating unseen under them, but a Mauser extractor would have continued functioning despite that."

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Finn Aagaard was correct. I have personally seen two post '64 Winchester Model 70 rifles experience extraction failure. One in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum in the Zambezi Valley. One in .458 Winchester Magnum in the Kalahari.

On both occasions, the ammunition used was Winchester Super Speed factory loads.

If I were you, I'd seriously consider having the rifle fitted with an M16 extractor for added reliability. McBride's Gun Works did this for my Remington Model 700 Kevlar Stock Custom in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum.

 

[M70375!]

Finn Aagaard was correct. I have personally seen two post '64 Winchester Model 70 rifles experience extraction failure. One in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum in the Zambezi Valley. One in .458 Winchester Magnum in the Kalahari.

On both occasions, the ammunition used was Winchester Super Speed factory loads.

If I were you, I'd seriously consider having the rifle fitted with an M16 extractor for added reliability. McBride's Gun Works did this for my Remington Model 700 Kevlar Stock Custom in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum.

Thanks for the feedback, maybe I should sell it and get a CRF

 

[ldmay375]

My personal opinion, is the true Mauser extraction system, where you cannot jump the extractor over the rim of a cartridge in the chamber, has to be the most positive. As most people state, barring an extractor breakage, that brass or a piece of it is coming out, even if you have to use your foot on the bolt. Though, I have had no issue with the slightly modified, that allow you to close the bolt on a chambered round.

The flip side, I have use my foot on M1A rifles a couple of times to extract unfired rounds. The rounds removed on first stomp, which would not budge when using the hand method. But, those were unfired. Although, it apparently worked on the M14 on fired rounds also.

Bolt guns, I prefer the long claw extractors and fixed blade ejectors. Just seems like a simpler more hardy system.

 

[Roosterlund]

Finn Aagaard was correct. I have personally seen two post '64 Winchester Model 70 rifles experience extraction failure. One in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum in the Zambezi Valley. One in .458 Winchester Magnum in the Kalahari.

On both occasions, the ammunition used was Winchester Super Speed factory loads.

If I were you, I'd seriously consider having the rifle fitted with an M16 extractor for added reliability. McBride's Gun Works did this for my Remington Model 700 Kevlar Stock Custom in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum.

How much does this cost? Have a 375 H&H push feed would like to have M16 extractor installed. Thanks for any info!

 

[Hunter-Habib]

How much does this cost? Have a 375 H&H push feed would like to have M16 extractor installed. Thanks for any info!

My pleasure. It will set you back $175 (as of 2023).

 

[Ontario Hunter]

My personal opinion, is the true Mauser extraction system, where you cannot jump the extractor over the rim of a cartridge in the chamber, has to be the most positive. As most people state, barring an extractor breakage, that brass or a piece of it is coming out, even if you have to use your foot on the bolt. Though, I have had no issue with the slightly modified, that allow you to close the bolt on a chambered round.

The flip side, I have use my foot on M1A rifles a couple of times to extract unfired rounds. The rounds removed on first stomp, which would not budge when using the hand method. But, those were unfired. Although, it apparently worked on the M14 on fired rounds also.

Bolt guns, I prefer the long claw extractors and fixed blade ejectors. Just seems like a simpler more hardy system.

I'm curious why you think that "true Mauser extraction system" was not designed to snap over on cartridges dropped in the chamber. Duane Weibe in his book on converting standard action Mauser to 375 says exactly the opposite. According to him, only recent clones of 98 Mauser are designed to NOT snap over. My post WWII Czech Mauser clearly was designed to snap over (obvious from the bevel on face of extractor). It would be illogical to design a military bolt action that does not snap over. Soldier in a firefight might not have time to push shells into an empty magazine if enemy is bearing down on him with bayonet fixed. For essentially the same reason one should not pick a dangerous game rifle that won't snap over.

 

[baxterb]

I'm curious why you think that "true Mauser extraction system" was not designed to snap over on cartridges dropped in the chamber. Duane Weibe in his book on converting standard action Mauser to 375 says exactly the opposite. According to him, only recent clones of 98 Mauser are designed to NOT snap over. My post WWII Czech Mauser clearly was designed to snap over (obvious from the bevel on face of extractor). It would be illogical to design a military bolt action that does not snap over. Soldier in a firefight might not have time to push shells into an empty magazine if enemy is bearing down on him with bayonet fixed. For essentially the same reason one should not pick a dangerous game rifle that won't snap over.

Hey, nice mention of Duane's Mauser booklet. I did all the layout/design on that. That's been a bit ago!

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I'm curious why you think that "true Mauser extraction system" was not designed to snap over on cartridges dropped in the chamber. Duane Weibe in his book on converting standard action Mauser to 375 says exactly the opposite. According to him, only recent clones of 98 Mauser are designed to NOT snap over. My post WWII Czech Mauser clearly was designed to snap over (obvious from the bevel on face of extractor). It would be illogical to design a military bolt action that does not snap over. Soldier in a firefight might not have time to push shells into an empty magazine if enemy is bearing down on him with bayonet fixed. For essentially the same reason one should not pick a dangerous game rifle that won't snap over.

@ldmay375 is correct. The original German Mauser Model 98 action was designed to have the rounds only fed into the chamber from the magazine itself.

The 1958 Holland & Holland catalog explicitly warns against trying to feed a cartridge directly into the chamber. Take a look at the left hand side of these catalog pages.

The original .505 Gibbs rifles built by George Gibbs would not permit for an extractor to snap over the rim of a cartridge without exerting a lot of strain upon the extractor.

It was the Belgians (who designed the Fabrique Nationale Mauser action) who figured out that beveling the extractor permits for the extractor to snap over the rim of a cartridge if you need to feed one directly into the chamber.

 

[RR 314]

My pleasure. It will set you back $175 (as of 2023).

The part is around $35 to $40 and I think most folks here can handle the swap.

 

[ldmay375]

This has some good discussion in it.
Thank you @Hunter-Habib for commenting again.

Thread 'Snapping Mauser style claw extractor over the rim'

Nov 18, 2019

I have a request to the gunsmiths or those with actual experience with this...my question stemming from another discussion but not related to original topic (related to BRNO ZKK but applying to any Mauser style extractor), so transported here:

Snapping claw extractor over the rim on hand chambered round......some do so easily, some are harder to do it with, some cannot do it at all. All depending on the amount of bevel surface of the claw. Should it snap over the rim? I like the feature and never had an issue, but I rarely do it. Is it good for the extractor? Probably not. Can you break...

• Milan
• Replies: 29
• Forum: Gunsmithing

• 

 

[Hunter-Habib]

The part is around $35 to $40 and I think most folks here can handle the swap.

One more word of warning. The recess in your Remington Model 700 barrel must be opened up from .700 to .715 in order to be properly retrofitted with the M16 extractor.

 

[Monski]

One more word of warning. The recess in your Remington Model 700 barrel must be opened up from .700 to .715 in order to be properly retrofitted with the M16 extractor.

Is this the same modification as installing a sako type extractor? Bobby Hart made me an accurate rifle years ago on a Rem 700 action and always "machined and installed Sako extractor" on these.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@ldmay375 is correct. The original German Mauser Model 98 action was designed to have the rounds only fed into the chamber from the magazine itself.

The 1958 Holland & Holland catalog explicitly warns against trying to feed a cartridge directly into the chamber. Take a look at the left hand side of these catalog pages.
View attachment 657120

The original .505 Gibbs rifles built by George Gibbs would not permit for an extractor to snap over the rim of a cartridge without exerting a lot of strain upon the extractor.

It was the Belgians (who designed the Fabrique Nationale Mauser action) who figured out that beveling the extractor permits for the extractor to snap over the rim of a cartridge if you need to feed one directly into the chamber.

Duane Wiebe was indeed referring to "Contract Mausers always have the necessary 1mm clearance in the ring to allow this 'snap over feature. Sadly, some of the recently manufactured Mauser clones do not." ( p. 7, "Feeding and Function of a Converted Mauser.")

The Czech vz.24 I converted to 404J would be classified, I guess, as a contract Mauser. It came with beveled extractor and clearance in the ring. Of course, I had to significantly modify the extractor to make it work with wider rimmed 404 cartridge. Interesting that both 1903 Sprinfield and P14 Enfield were made with snap over feature. Here's my Springfield's bolt with unmodified extractor. Note the beveled face.

And here's my wife's grandfather's P14 bolt also with beveled extractor. I don't have the tools to measure the depth of the extractor channel in the ring but I don't see any reason why the face of the extractor would be beveled to allow snap over if sufficient ring clearance wasn't there.

To me it seems inconceivable that Mauser would make millions of military rifles through two world wars without the snap over feature. That would seem to be an invitation for broken extractors in the heat of combat. I can understand German military training its soldiers to NOT do this because it could conceivably stress extractors, especially over time. But at least having the capacity to snap over would prevent a hopeless jam in the event a soldier panicked in the heat of combat and closed the bolt on a cartridge dropped in the chamber. Paul Mauser was all about engineering safety features to compensate for potential disaster, no matter how unlikely. Examples are 3-position safety and gas ports.

It would not surprise me if Holland & Holland was warning purchasers to not attempt snap over ... even if they had engineered extractors and rings to accommodate it. There is little doubt snap over is stressful on CRF extractors, even in guns designed for it. Example: My first safari I borrowed my PH's CZ 375 to hunt buffalo. At the range before hunting I simply dropped a shell in the chamber and closed the bolt like I always did with my Springfield at the range. Both PH and lodge owner were aghast. "You can't do that with CZ!!" But I just did. Bolt closed fine. I immediately ejcted the shell no problem. But of course thereafter I only loaded from the magazine. Not my gun. Both of those guys were under the mistaken impression that their CZ rifles were incapable of snap over and that doing it would either break the extractor or jam the gun.

Edit: I should add that my Czech Mauser bolt is designed with a feature to lock the extractor claw when the bolt is retracted and release it when the bolt is being closed with cartridge pressure against face of claw. I would be surprised if Mauser made bolts did not have this feature.