Minimum stopping round?

[IvW]

Of course rebated rims can be made to work but they're a compromise that simply isn't needed if the action is big enough. Their sole purpose was to allow a smaller bolt face. I just don't see the need to inject another headache in to the project.
The 500 Jeff Improved (and the 500 AHR) do indeed get rid of the rebated rim but brass is even harder to acquire.

500 Jeff does outperform the 505 but the 505 has a greater case capacity, at the same pressure it beats the Jeff. Plus it's very easy to build a 510 Gibbs if you want to go for .510" bullets.
It's irrelevant anyway as I won't be going Gibbs. Haven't ruled out the Jeff mind.

505 Gibbs

Maximum pressure 39,160 psi
Ballistic performance
Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
600 gr (39 g) Protected Point 2,100 ft/s (640 m/s) 5,877 ft·lbf (7,968 J)
600 gr (39 g) FMJ 2,100 ft/s (640 m/s) 5,877 ft·lbf (7,968 J)
525 gr (34 g) Welded Core SP 2,300 ft/s (700 m/s) 6,180 ft·lbf (8,380 J)

500 Jeff

Maximum pressure 46,000 psi
Ballistic performance
Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
570 gr (37 g) Soft Nose 2,200 ft/s (670 m/s) 6,127 ft·lbf (8,307 J)
570 gr (37 g) Barnes TSX 2,507 ft/s (764 m/s) 7,957 ft·lbf (10,788 J)
535 gr (35 g) SP 2,549 ft/s (777 m/s) 7,721 ft·lbf (10,468 J)
600 gr (39 g) PP 2,468 ft/s (752 m/s) 8,117 ft·lbf (11,005 J)
465 gr (30 g) Lehigh Solid 2,551 ft/s (778 m/s) 6,721 ft·lbf (9,112 J)

 

[Jimbob]

The pressure for 500 Jeff is a little higher, CIP set it at 47,860 psi. SAAMI doesn't have the Jeff on its books.
Norma is a CIP registered company and therefore all ammunition must adhere to CIP specs.
The 600gr data for the 505 is from Norma, the 570gr Soft Nose for the 500 is Norma. So at CIP pressures the Jeff wins.
The other data for the Jeff is from here http://www.realguns.com/loads/500jeffery.htm
Where they state that they have gone above CIP pressures. This isn't an issue if the rifle and case can handle it.

The Jeff is a great cartridge and I would love to own one and it is indeed more powerful than the 505 when both are held at their respective CIP pressures.
However the 505 would be more powerful if loaded to the same pressure as the 500, again in a rifle and with a case that is built for it.

It's largely irrelevant as it's hardly like 6000 ft-lbs +/- 250 ft-lbs is a small number. Both are great cartridges with upsides and downsides.

 

[IvW]

The pressure for 500 Jeff is a little higher, CIP set it at 47,860 psi. SAAMI doesn't have the Jeff on its books.
Norma is a CIP registered company and therefore all ammunition must adhere to CIP specs.
The 600gr data for the 505 is from Norma, the 570gr Soft Nose for the 500 is Norma. So at CIP pressures the Jeff wins.
The other data for the Jeff is from here http://www.realguns.com/loads/500jeffery.htm
Where they state that they have gone above CIP pressures. This isn't an issue if the rifle and case can handle it.

The Jeff is a great cartridge and I would love to own one and it is indeed more powerful than the 505 when both are held at their respective CIP pressures.
However the 505 would be more powerful if loaded to the same pressure as the 500, again in a rifle and with a case that is built for it.

It's largely irrelevant as it's hardly like 6000 ft-lbs +/- 250 ft-lbs is a small number. Both are great cartridges with upsides and downsides.

True.

Back to the start of the thread, I still think 404 Jeff is great for what you want, we are now in the overkill class!

 

[Jimbob]

That we agree on, the 404 (or at a push the 416's) will do anything required of it.

Doesn't stop me wanting more mind. It's an interesting little thread to see what people consider the minimum to not hunt but stop dangerous game.

 

[spike.t]

It's an interesting little thread to see what people consider the minimum to not hunt but stop dangerous game.

depends where you put the bullet. a 9.3x62 in the correct place will do the job , but a .500 etc in the wrong place wont........

 

[Jimbob]

Couldn't agree more there Spike. It's does however get to a point where placement isn't gonna help. Even with solids I don't think I'd want to stop mbogo with a 223, 30-06, or similar.
For me, a 40 cal with a 400gr at 2150 (450/400) would be the minimum.

 

[IvW]

depends where you put the bullet. a 9.3x62 in the correct place will do the job , but a .500 etc in the wrong place wont........

True.

However the 500 Jeff, in the same place will do the job with so much more authority and certainty, every time.

 

[spike.t]

yeah, used 9.3x62 as its feasible and been used by more than one ph in the scenario you talked about .

 

[spike.t]

True.

However the 500 Jeff, in the same place will do the job with so much more authority and certainty, every time.

yeah kinda know that, but was just saying a 9.3x62 in the right place will STOP the animal which is what was mentioned. now would i prefer my 9.3x62 or my .458 lott or .500 jeffery in that scenario... for sure i bet you can guess

 

[Jimbob]

I reckon I can probably guess! You're a lucky man owning what you do.

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

Of course a 375 will take anything on the planet but what would everyone consider the minimum as a stopping round?
Let's say you are a professional hunter but want to reduce recoil for whatever reason, what would be your choice?
404 Jeff? A 416? 458 Win Mag?

I think that 404Jeffery or 9,3x62.
Witold

 

[DWB]

Stopped 4 charging cattle in their tracks with my 9.3 and softs

But I seriously agree with IvW with an indestructible soft when a charge is expected on buff. Just makes more sense as the bigger frontal area will do more damage.

Shot a Zebra on Friday with 400gr Rhino and man I like how they perform!!!!

 

[rookhawk]

gert,
of the 5 or 6 PH I have had the pleasure of knowing and/or hunting with and seeing their weapons all but one had a double rifle, I am pretty sure Mr. Pieter Erasmus carries a double too. the lone one with a bolt gun was a custom mauser action.
so cycling of action kinda moot for a PH with a double. but definitely not moot for clients to pay heed too.

Then your PHs are getting overpaid!

All jokes aside, the PHs I know are not remotely interested or knowledgeable on guns. They emphasize it's just a tool over and over again, a sad, un-lubricated , unloved, injured, broken tool. Those tools are all .458s either Mausers or BRNO.

Keep in mind, these are Zim boys and they cannot afford ammo so they are relying on old trusted calibers that clients can leave them ammo or they can get a few smuggled rounds. Rumor has it 458 is cheapest DG round at $300-$400 a box in Zim!

 

[Nyati]

As Tony Sanchez-Ariño says, "the best of all calibers is a bullet in the right place", that never fails.

With over 1.270 elephants and 2.030 buffaloes to his credit, he favors the .416 Rigby.

 

[IvW]

As Tony Sanchez-Ariño says, "the best of all calibers is a bullet in the right place", that never fails.

With over 1.270 elephants and 2.030 buffaloes to his credit, he favors the .416 Rigby.

That is so and is the calibre he uses for Buffalo, Lion etc. For elephant hunting he prefers his 500 Jeff.

He describes it as "The most devastatingly effective combination I have ever used on elephant even in the most dangerous situations."

As you mention the most important part is shot placement with an appropriate calibre for the task.

 

[spike.t]

As you mention the most important part is shot placement with an appropriate calibre for the task.

hi just out of interest what is the minimum appropriate cal you would use if it was all you had ? just fancy a bit of hypothetical as its getting a bit same same

 

[norfolk shooter]

hi just out of interest what is the minimum appropriate cal you would use if it was all you had ? just fancy a bit of hypothetical as its getting a bit same same

I know you hate them but 375 H&H. Super diverse

 

[spike.t]

I know you hate them but 375 H&H. Super diverse

nah dont hate them...just find them a bit common...........

 

[IvW]

hi just out of interest what is the minimum appropriate cal you would use if it was all you had ? just fancy a bit of hypothetical as its getting a bit same same

The minimum I would use would be 375 H&H but for Elephant I draw the line at 404 Jeff.

 

[IvW]

nah dont hate them...just find them a bit common...........

Common they are, cause it is the single most versatile calibre you can buy for Africa..