Mild large bore

[IvW]

I guess that's where opinions can differ.

You have in your list 3 rounds that aren't even big bores, yet one again, a difference of opinion.

I have been using the 458 win mag with great success around the world for over fifty years and it has never failed me.

Amazingly you don't appear to have anything good to say about the 458 or the 460 and with only about 400 fps between them with the same bullet your objectivity ....in my opinion...is somewhat in question.

Good luck

The OP is originally looking for:

"Any recommendations on a rifle calibre that would suit? Something that can go down to a 250 or 350gn projectile with mild loading for general use but can be bumped if if i ever say hunt water buffalo or draw a MT grizzly tag (great odds on that im sure!)"

Many people who have used normal hunting calibers(eg .308) refer to anything over that as large bores.

For what he wants the good old 375 H&H is slap bang just what he needs. If he needs something a bit bigger the 404 Jeff and 416 Rigby will offer all he needs.

The performance difference between .458 Lott and .458 Win. Mag is summed up in Frank C. Barnes's Cartridges of the World, Sixth Editionas such: "The .458 Winchester is advertised as developing 2040 fps with the 500-grain bullet, fired from a 24-inch barrel. In practice it doesn't actually do much better than 1900 fps. The .458 Lott will do an honest 2300 fps+ from a 22-inch barrel."

As for the 460 Weatherby capable of firing a 500 gr bullet at 2700 fps, well what the hell you wanna hunt with that! The rifle will beat you to submission before you finish your hunt. It is a piece of crap as a hunting rifle, especially for use on DG.

I had a client give me a 460 Weatherby he had specially made for a 18 day safari. He had to use a spare 375 H&H I had in camp to complete his hunt as he could no longer hit what he was aiming at when using the 460 Weatherby. I declined the offer and had a highly upset client. I finally screwed the barrel off and kept the action and the stock. and he seemed to accept that but was not sure what he would do with the barrel that I gave back to him.

Amazingly you don't appear to have anything good to say about the 458 or the 460 and with only about 400 fps between them with the same bullet your objectivity ....in my opinion...is somewhat in question.

Nothing to be amazed at, the 458 WM does not achieve what is was originally designed to do and the 460 Weatherby is way too much gun even for an experienced hunter. Both are poor choices as hunting rifles and even more so when choosing either of them for DG. There are many better choices for that job.

To clear up the objectivity part.. well it is quite simple. Recommend a caliber that the OP asked recommendations for not the two most extreme apart calibers that fall far out of the scope of what the man is asking advice about.

 

[Von S.]

The title of the thread is "Mild LARGE BORE" not anything anyone wants to call a large for automatically becomes one.

Ok....so you can't shoot either a 458 or a 460 there's no shame in that. Africa is full of 375 H&H rifles because it is the minimum for dg and it's recoil is low and slow. I like it for PG and find it great for things like moose and elk.

But simply because you can't handle the recoil doesn't mean that everyone can not.

A 458 Winchester Magnum consistently puts out around 2150, not 1900 as you suggest and the number you give
The 460 WM is areound 2650.

Of course if a person wants they can go up or down in the velocity by handloading.

So a guy ...a client..... gave you a custom 460 ....a many thousand of dollar rifle and you took the barrel off and gave it back to him then kept the rest of a rifle that you hate the action making it near worthless. So you have a hydraulic barrel vise and Wthby action wrench handy? Just so you can destroy expensive rifles?

That one Ive never heard before.

What outfitter do you work for as a guide?

Thank you and good luck.

 

[JPbowhunter]

Thanks for all the replies, i did put a post up with what I'd decided to do but it was buried in another reply.

Essentially i don't plan om hunting DG in africa, mostly because it's cost prohibitive for someone like myself but it's likely i will be hunting buffalo in Australia in the near future. Was looking for a cal that could handle deer loads for general work but still be loaded up for buffalo when needed. My fallback would be a 9.3x62 unless i could find something bigger that piqued my interest.

In the end i decided I'd like to start saving and either just get a 9.3x74R or 450-400 double in chapuis ugex or merkel 140 or something affordable like that. If i were to go a bolt it'd be just a 9.3x62 or a 404 jeffery. The 10.3x68 mag does sound interesting so I'd like to see if that cartridge develops into something more popular.

 

[Von S.]

Fantastic JP

Whatever you end up with I hope everything you aim at drops in one shot.

Go get em!

 

[WAB]

There are many ways to skin a cat. This is my low impact big bore:

Jacketed bullets from 210 to 400 grains. Factory load is 300 grains at 2225 fps.
Pay your money and take your choic

I owned an original ‘95 in .303. The only one I’ve ever seen. I should not have sold that gun!

 

[IvW]

Thanks for all the replies, i did put a post up with what I'd decided to do but it was buried in another reply.

Essentially i don't plan om hunting DG in africa, mostly because it's cost prohibitive for someone like myself but it's likely i will be hunting buffalo in Australia in the near future. Was looking for a cal that could handle deer loads for general work but still be loaded up for buffalo when needed. My fallback would be a 9.3x62 unless i could find something bigger that piqued my interest.

In the end i decided I'd like to start saving and either just get a 9.3x74R or 450-400 double in chapuis ugex or merkel 140 or something affordable like that. If i were to go a bolt it'd be just a 9.3x62 or a 404 jeffery. The 10.3x68 mag does sound interesting so I'd like to see if that cartridge develops into something more popular.

Great choices!

 

[IvW]

The title of the thread is "Mild LARGE BORE" not anything anyone wants to call a large for automatically becomes one.

It is in the eye of the beholder, many who have not used medium bores would consider a 375 H&H as a large bore although it is not.

Ok....so you can't shoot either a 458 or a 460 there's no shame in that. Africa is full of 375 H&H rifles because it is the minimum for dg and it's recoil is low and slow. I like it for PG and find it great for things like moose and elk.

But simply because you can't handle the recoil doesn't mean that everyone can not.

Not a question of can't but rather prefer not to. In my opinion they are both poor DG rifles. Added to that the Weatherby platform makes for a poor platform as a dangerous game rifle. Although it is extremely strong. and great for accuracy.

Most issues I experienced with clients hunting DG in the field where with 458 WM(lack of penetration and stuck cases), 460 Weatherby, 378 Weatherby(excess recoil and client unable to handle it) and with double rifle incompetence when it comes time to reload and not moving the trigger finger to the back trigger after firing the first) due to lack of practice.

As for the 375 H&H, yes it is the minimum for DG in many countries, but it also is the single most useful and versatile cartridge that a client can choose for Africa. It has been the King of the medium bores since its inception. Most hunters can use it with confidence and it is the most recommended cartridge for a client to bring to Africa.

Very very few people can handle either the 378 or 460 Weatherby cartridges.

The needs of clients and PH's are different and so are their tools of trade.

I use a 500 Jeff for DG back up work and it has served me extremely well.

So a guy ...a client..... gave you a custom 460 ....a many thousand of dollar rifle and you took the barrel off and gave it back to him then kept the rest of a rifle that you hate the action making it near worthless. So you have a hydraulic barrel vise and Wthby action wrench handy? Just so you can destroy expensive rifles?

That one Ive never heard before.

There is always a first I quess.

Yes.
I am not a gunsmith and don't need a hydraulic barrel vise or a Wthby action wrench to remove a barrel that I am not interested in keeping.

May have destroyed the 460 but have built a long range rifle on the action, removed the shiny mirror finish from the stock and gave it a London oil finish and now have a rifle we can at least use and shoot.

Weatherby actions have some issues and they are as stated not my choice for a DG rifle but they are extremely strong and potentially very accurate.

It now is the most accurate rifle I have ever owned but it is not a DG rifle and stays in the safe more often than not.

What outfitter do you work for as a guide?

Thank you and good luck.

I have worked for many outfitters over the years in 6 different countries both as a PH and a DG foot safari guide.

At the end of the day it boils down to personal choice but whatever that choice is make sure you are competent with your choice of firearm, cartridge and bullet and it is up to the task of your chosen prey.

Good luck to you too.

 

[2L8]

I know this is old but....

He wants the dream, the mystique and something to aspire to. As a practical tool a .416 Remington or Ruger will do anything you need. But to scratch the emotional itch he has it's either a .404 Jeffery Bolt or a 450/400 3" Double (If his ship were to come in or he finds a deal on a US or Continental Double). I once passed up a Custom 450/400 (Ellis Brown?) built on a LC Smith 16 Ga Sidelock Action for $3,000. It would have needed a new stock (Less Drop) and I was concerned about their propensity for splitting stocks and have no idea the quality of his conversions (I was told it was an Ellis Brown but didnt confirm).

PS I have no idea how Ellis Brown builds are regarded but they might be an option if you really want a 450/400. That said I would research thoroughly before having one built.

 

[Velo Dog]

Hi JPbowhunter,

I’m +1 more vote for the .375 H&H, especially if you do not wish to spend many thousands of Aussie dollars on this “deer to buffalo” rifle.
I know you lean somewhat more toward the 9.3x62 cartridge and I agree that it is a beauty.
I own both however, the .375 is more versatile, especially considering your intent to hunt buffalo.
Likewise, the .375 shoots very flat with lighter weight, spitzer bullets, if needed for open terrain / sparse foliage conditions type deer hunting.

The 9.3x62 is not a particularly flat shooter.
It can be stretched a bit by shooting 232 grain bullets (if you can find them) but, the .375 loaded with 235 grainers shoots flatter and the bullets are fairly common.
All that being said, it seems like what you’re really hoping for is a double but, without having to mortgage your eternal soul.
Therefore, I recommend that you start saving up money now and stick to it.
In other words, don’t become impatient and risk wasting money on a less than satisfactory one.

Keep saving up money for a couple extra years (or more) beyond the price of a Merkel and / or Chapuis, until you can afford a Heym in caliber 450/400 NE 3”.
And don’t bother paying extra for their selector switch that, lets you choose between ejectors or extractors, with the sliding of a tab in the forearm.
If ordering a new one from Heym, just buy the rifle with one or the other as you personally prefer.

If buying a used one, don’t worry about it if the selector switch is already on it.
The one I had was 30 years old when I bought it and it had that silly switch in the forearm.
But, it had been de-activated, leaving it as strictly an ejector gun, much to my delight.
(I prefer ejectors but, if one consistently shoots well, one won’t need to reload in a hurry - LOL).

Parting Shot as it were:
If you decide to have a rifle built on a double barrel shotgun action (personally, I don’t think I’d bother with this idea for a dangerous game caliber), I recommend using a Pre-War JP Sauer, as these were properly forged from very high quality steel and have three fasteners as well.


Anyway, I hope you end up with exactly the perfect rifle for your taste and intended use.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[sambarhunter]

It can be stretched a bit by shooting 232 grain bullets (if you can find them)

Norma make 232`s in Oryx and Vulkans

The oryx are on the list for my 9.3 x 64.

 

[Bushpig4Ever]

If I were you I wouldn't ask such questions on the forum. Read the books of Dr. Kevin 'Doctari' Robertson and Kevin Thomas. THEY are full of knowledge and experience. After reading all their books you'll have a vast knowledge of what is right for you.

 

[IvW]

If I were you I wouldn't ask such questions on the forum. Read the books of Dr. Kevin 'Doctari' Robertson and Kevin Thomas. THEY are full of knowledge and experience. After reading all their books you'll have a vast knowledge of what is right for you.

This is probably the best platform to ask such questions....

Yes you will get a lot of different opinions but in the end you should be able to make the right choice.

 

[colorado]

A CZ 550 in 375 H&H would be about perfect. Great grizzly and African caliber. All you need. Powerful but won't punish you.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Since you are an average Joe, be the average Joe that stands out, get yourself a 8x68S caliber rifle, it will do all you want and then some more..long range as well as a great bush caliber shooting a 250 gn bullet .....forget the .375 H&HMagnum or 404 Jeffery....

 

[rookhawk]

First of all I'm starting to hate this forum all i do these days is look up African hunting and large bore rifles, feel like my little bank account will be hanging in the red!

All this talk of cals has me wondering.

I'm very much an average joe, i dont have the money for DG hunts and are not likely to in my lifetime realistically. BUT you just never know! maybe i do need one after my 275 is finished.

My current safe is a 30-06, the 275 rigby, and a 50 cal muzzleloader. I can justify a bigger cal as long as i can load it down for sambar. A 250gn barnes from 9.3x62 comes to mind (brother has that in sako blackbear). Ive shot deer with it and enjoy it, it kicks a bit on the bench but nothing uncomfortable

Any recommendations on a rifle calibre that would suit? Something that can go down to a 250 or 350gn projectile with mild loading for general use but can be bumped if if i ever say hunt water buffalo or draw a MT grizzly tag (great odds on that im sure!)

Really starting to like cz 550 as a good working man rifle so thats a likely make.

Mild + Medium Bore that is legal for Dangerous Game use comes down to three calibers that I'm aware of:

375HH
404Jeffery
9.3x64mm Brenneke (*In some countries, but not all)

You didn't say double rifle, but if so, there are two clones that are rimmed:

375HH Flanged
450/400 Nitro Express.

You can't go wrong with 375HH for versatility and long range accuracy, nor can you go wrong with 404J for closer work and better efficacy on buffalo and other larger DG.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Rookhawk, the .375 H&H Magnum is a medium transitional bore , the 404 Jeffery is a big bore/large bore since it is a .40 caliber . The 8x68S will work for this member since he live in Australia and there are not minimum calibers for the water buffalo , I stand to be corrected....the 8x68S was used for culling elephant in the early years before the minimum caliber laws came in effect in Africa...it is a great Cape buffalo caliber as well...and a long distance caliber par excellence, shooters here in South Africa use the 8x68S to shoot out to one thousand meters gong shooting....they really excel in this type of shooting..the .300 H&H Magnum can not be compare to the 8x68S when shooting 250 gn bullets at all..since a lot of hunters want to compare these two calibers , it is just not possible, the 8x68S is coming into it`s one when shooting long , flat trajectories ...

 

[HWL]

The thread starter asked for the "mild large bore".....

375 & 9,3 is medium,.....not large, so cannot be the answer.

In a bolt action, I would choose a 10,75x68, in a break open the .450/400 3" NE.

Both are "mild & large" ..... suitable for the general use, and can handle all the big ones in a pinch.


HWL

 

[Gert Odendaal]

The thread starter asked for the "mild large bore".....

375 & 9,3 is medium,.....not large, so cannot be the answer.

In a bolt action, I would choose a 10,75x68, in a break open the .450/400 3" NE.

Both are "mild & large" ..... suitable for the general use, and can handle all the big ones in a pinch.


HWL

HWL, looking at what this member want to hunt in Australia I really do not think he needs more than a 8x68S. Water buffalo can be hunted with the 8x68S using a 250 gn bullet without any doubt....I really think the focus needs to be at what he wants to hunt. and not at a caliber in the mild/large bore....the 8x68S will kill the type of game he wants to hunt extremely effective..no need for a large bore..

 

[HWL]

Probably..... you are right!



HWL

 

[Gert Odendaal]

I saw many hunters who used a 30-06 as their primary hunting rifle and then fall to the lure of " a big bore hunting rifle , just to own one and be able to tell hunters he has a big bore..the difficulty with this is that few hunters really learn to shoot a big bore, it is all technique , the person then develops a "flinch " due to his intolerance of felt recoil, and lack of practice shooting te big bore rifle a lot, since ammo is expensive as well ..all this just to say he shoots a big bore rifle...shot placement is key, not the diameter of the bullet...learn to shoot a medium bore rifle accurate and do perfect shot placement , that will serve you well , not the big bore lure...