medium bores "neither fish nor fowl"

[Goon]

I think you're right.

Big bores are designed to do one thing, and they are very good at it.

Medium bores are more of an "all around" gun! but they aren't as good at that one thing.

I know this, I would try a brain shot on an elephant and a 200 yard PG shot with my .375 H&H. I would only try one of those with a .470.[/QUOTE]
Ill
Go with royal on this. I would be more than happy and confident to hunt any DG with my 416.

 

[colorado]

Ah, well I would do both with my 500 Jeffery. Still waiting on the elephant but got a cow elk at just over 200 yards with it last season. Africa soon!

 

[matt85]

whoa, a 200yrd shot with the 500 Jeffery! gotta love those "high velocity" big bores. both the 458 Lott and the 500 Jeffery have speed of a medium bore with the weight and size of a big bore... an evil combination.

don't see myself making a 200 yard shot with the 505 Gibbs. a 600gr bullet at 2100fps would have about 10" of drop at that distance.

-matt

 

[Tanks]

whoa, a 200yrd shot with the 500 Jeffery! gotta love those "high velocity" big bores. both the 458 Lott and the 500 Jeffery have speed of a medium bore with the weight and size of a big bore... an evil combination.

don't see myself making a 200 yard shot with the 505 Gibbs. a 600gr bullet at 2100fps would have about 10" of drop at that distance.
...

For longer PG shots, one can always use lighter bullets. I use a 325gr tipped CEB Raptor @2900 fps with my 500MDM, and 225gr tipped CEB Raptor @2950 fps with my 416B&M. Gives me a lot more options for both guns.

 

[colorado]

Hi Matt, I sight my 500 Jeffery, like all of my scoped rifles, 2.5" high at 100 yards. That puts it dead on at 25 yards and dead on again at about 175 yards, so 200 yards is within the 3" plus/minus "tube".

 

[matt85]

the bullet selection for .505" is pretty limited but it looks like I could do 200 yards with some of the lighter bullets. according to the ballistics calculator the standard load for the 525gr Barnes TSX at 2300fps could work at 200 yards with a 165 yard zero. there is also the GS custom 455gr HV bullet which could probably be pushed at around 2500fps within standard operating pressures.

then again, the 416 with a 350gr bullet or a 375 with a 260gr bullet will do a much better job at 200+ yards with half the recoil. just because some big bores are capable of taking game at 200 yards does not mean they are good choices for it (no offence intended). Medium bores are far more suited for those "long shots" while still being plenty powerful enough for DG.


-matt

 

[colorado]

No offence taken. I have a 270 Weatherby for longer range work, but I try to use the 500 Jeffery whenever possible. That way when I go to Africa it will feel as comfortable to me as the 270 Win which was my only rifle for 35 years.

 

[Velo Dog]

the bullet selection for .505" is pretty limited but it looks like I could do 200 yards with some of the lighter bullets. according to the ballistics calculator the standard load for the 525gr Barnes TSX at 2300fps could work at 200 yards with a 165 yard zero. there is also the GS custom 455gr HV bullet which could probably be pushed at around 2500fps within standard operating pressures.

then again, the 416 with a 350gr bullet or a 375 with a 260gr bullet will do a much better job at 200+ yards with half the recoil. just because some big bores are capable of taking game at 200 yards does not mean they are good choices for it (no offence intended). Medium bores are far more suited for those "long shots" while still being plenty powerful enough for DG.


-matt

Hi Matt85,

I noticed awhile back that you might be intending to use 600 gr bullets in your .505 Gibbs.

For elephant, no doubt a 600 gr solid from that caliber would be the cat's pajamas.

However, for buffalo, my best well read guess is that the original load for your bazooka (50 caliber 525 gr bullet, at around 2300 fps), placed centrally through the "blood pump & air bags" region will knock any buffalo's dikdik in the dirt, faster than you can snap your suspenders and holler howdy.

I base this on having read all that I can find on Cape buffalo hunting plus, listening to all that various PHs and fellow clients have told me about their personal experiences with same.

Point being that, unless hunting elephant, you could perhaps stick with the original Gibbs load/ballistics.

Thereby you'd have the best of both a serious stopping rifle and a 200 yard antelope getter if you saw some special waterbok, eland, nyala, warthog, whatever that you could not live without, you'd be all set.

There would be no fumbling around trying to get a flatter shooting cartridge into your rifle or any of that, just get on the sticks, put your sight picture on the mark as you had practiced many times and touch'er off.

All of this in the face of the fact that 200 yd shots in most buffalo habitat are very rare.

In one of Doctari's excellent books, he wrote of knocking a very upset cow elephant off her feet with his .505 and a .525 gr bullet, by putting the bullet square on her shoulder as she ran past his location, back in the days before the 600 gr Woodleigh was available in .505 diameter.

Anyway, Cheerio for now,
Velo Dog.

 

[Tanks]

Exactly VD,

On a recent hunt we were seeing a lot of sign of impala while looking for elephant sign in the mornings. We decided to whack one for the camp pot. I took one at 14o yards with a 500gr solid @2350fps. I knew that while being sighted at 50 yards, the drop was 3" at 150 yards, so I aimed a tad high. Broke both shoulders, and the bullet is probably still going .

 

[matt85]

it was actually Mr. Roberston (Doctari) who convinced me to use a 600gr bullet. his go-to bullet these days is apparently the 600gr North Fork CPS. he STRONGLY recommended using this for buffalo.

i may still use the 525gr TSX though, i believe it would perform very well and still allow for those PG shots. alongside buffalo i intend to hunt warthog and possibly babboon so it would be nice to be able to use the rifle im holding rather then needing to borrow someone elses gun.

there is also still a chance that i will be using a 416 for my buffalo. will see how i like this 505 when it gets back from being worked on.

-matt

 

[Velo Dog]

it was actually Mr. Roberston (Doctari) who convinced me to use a 600gr bullet. his go-to bullet these days is apparently the 600gr North Fork CPS. he STRONGLY recommended using this for buffalo.

i may still use the 525gr TSX though, i believe it would perform very well and still allow for those PG shots. alongside buffalo i intend to hunt warthog and possibly babboon so it would be nice to be able to use the rifle im holding rather then needing to borrow someone elses gun.

there is also still a chance that i will be using a 416 for my buffalo. will see how i like this 505 when it gets back from being worked on.

-matt

I read you loud and clear there Matt.

If my very rotten memory serves me correctly for a change, Dr Robertson was the designer of the 600 gr .505 bullets (soft & solid), as well as other heavier than normal ones in various calibers.

I would be a bigger fool today than I normally am the other 364 days each year if I attempted to argue against that incredibly experienced man, in most any outdoor topic, especially DG ballistics.

He is in fact one of the chaps that I refer to fairly often, in order to support my point in various discussions, here and around many a camp fire.

From a PH point of view, I can totally see why he would want all the bullet he could shoot well, in case of having to stop a charge or anchor a fleeing beast that some city slicker client had just gut shot.

The only reason I mentioned the original Gibbs loading is to suggest an option that would be both proper for buffalo and easier to hit antelopes/oinkers with at a bit longer distance, in case you bump into some lesser critter a ways out there, during your walkabouts for buffalo.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[matt85]

i agree with you Velo Dog, hence why im still considering the 525gr TSX. from everything ive read the TSX and other similar monolithic bullets will penetrate like heavier bullets. so my thought/hope is that the 525gr TSX will get similar penetration to a 600gr bullet but give better expansion then the 600gr CPS. it would also give me the option to shoot PG with the 505.

-matt

 

[Velo Dog]

Hi again Matt85,

I copy that.

And, regarding your plan to possibly use your .416 for buffalo, I presume you are referring to your .500/.416 double.

If so, I can say that the one buffalo I have sacked plus, the ten other non-dangerous animals I've taken with double rifles (.450 No2 NE and .375 H&H, both SxS types), leaves me with very fond memories, especially the buffalo of course.

I doubt I will ever book another double rifle type safari for PG only but, regarding any DG that I am fortunate enough to book in the future, it is fairly likely that I will plan it around my one remaining double rifle (Heym .458 Winchester).

This is not to say that I might not use one of my Mausers for heavy/DG someday but, the double is what I will prefer for same, generally speaking.

There is just something extremely special about stalking heavy/dangerous game with a double rifle and I predict that you'll be as thoroughly intoxicated by it, as I surely am.

Best regards,
Velo Dog.

 

[matt85]

i will likely sell my 500/416 NE, its been such a headache that the rifle leaves a bad taste in my mouth. i will probably replace it with a Win m70 in 416 RM.

-matt

 

[Tanks]

While I believe one should shoot the biggest gun and the biggest bullet in regards to DG like elephant, cape buffalo etc. that one can shoot comfortably. Once one exceeds 6,000ft.lbs of energy in a large caliber though it really becomes immaterial. So, 525gr or 600gr bullets, both will work very capably.

If one can pick a solid and a hollow point that shoot close to the same point of impact I don't think there is any point to theorize further. I have a lion and a trophy bull elephant scheduled for next May. I will be using a 450gr CEB raptor for lion and any extra bait animals, and a 500gr CEB safari solid for the elephant. Point of impact for the two bullets are about an inch apart between the two bullets and both make one hole three shot groups at 50 yards. Yes, I can experiment with other bullets, but what is the point. Now, I can use the 335gr tipped Safari raptor at 2900fps that generates an extra 200 ft.lbs for lion, but it is 4" high at 50 yards from the 500gr solid requiring a re-sighting in the field when I switch targets. Why complicate things?

Also, I am comfortable shooting these bullets up to 150 yards without a scope magnification and have no plans to shoot any bait longer than that distance.

 

[Velo Dog]

i will likely sell my 500/416 NE, its been such a headache that the rifle leaves a bad taste in my mouth. i will probably replace it with a Win m70 in 416 RM.

-matt

I fully understand your disgust with that Searcy double rifle, after the issues you have recently experienced.

My .500 Jeffery from CZ's so called "Custom Shop" really annoys me in a huge way, every time I look at it.

If I thought I could get anywhere near what I have in it, I would sell it.

You could do a lot worse than the Model 70 CRF, in .416 Remington caliber.

With that rifle and cartridge combination, you should be able to sack any animal on earth, plus a few inter-galactic ones.

Cheers.

 

[Steve Steyr]

I think the general rule of a"take the largest caliber you can shoot well and with a minimum of flinch" will serve you well. Brain shots is brain shots, whether from a 6.5x54 or a .600 Nitro Express. As far as being charged by wounded DG, many PH's concur - the same rule applies. Caliber makes little difference because, unless the CNS is broken down, the massive infusion of adrenaline the wounded DG becomes infused with makes them nearly impervious to falling quickly from a lung, heart, liver or other vital organ shot. By that time, you may resemble pizza topping.
And most of these calibers have proven effective for years on DG - you don't have to do any of the pioneer work. The newer calibers closely mimic the ballistics of the oldies.
Personally, though I really enjoy my 9.3x62 and my 9.3x74, were I going on a DG hunt, I would start looking at a .40 caliber and up, maybe find one to shoot. Say, start looking at a 450/400 3" as a minimum. Then, judge whether I could handle the jump in recoil to a .416 Remington or .416 RCM. Since I reload, I could load either .416 down to a tolerable recoil level and still have all the mojo needed to confidently handle all DG.
Or just get a .458 WM and reload in increasing power levels to get my body's recoil level tolerance built up in steps.
Either way, it would give me the opportunity to really learn my rifle and become one with it. Just another free opinion.

 

[Capebuffalo]

In my search for the perfect dangerous game cartridge, I stumbled across the following article:

.400 H&H Magnum

Does anybody on this forum have experience with the 400 H & H? Seems to me very close to perfect...

 

[John Wasmuth]

In my search for the perfect dangerous game cartridge, I stumbled across the following article:

.400 H&H Magnum

Does anybody on this forum have experience with the 400 H & H? Seems to me very close to perfect...

Not as of yet but it has had me thinking

 

[grand veneur]

I like all the cartridges in the Holland & Holland series, meant 300 H&H Magnum, 375 H&H Magnum, 400 H&H Magnum and the lesser known 465 H&H Magnum. The appeal but lies more in the design of these cartridges with their beautiful slim conical shape of the cases and also the aura with which they are connected.

What is the advantage of some of these cartridges compared to other cartridges ?

Let's exclude perhaps the cartridge 300 H&H Magnum and in particular the 375 H&H Magnum, latter a cartridge that has become inseparable from hunting in Africa, but all the other cartridges from Holland & Holland, especially the cartridge 400 H&H Magnum, must be used in rifles from Holland & Holland or other expensive weapons. So where is the advantage of the cartridge 400 H&H Magnum compared to the cartridge 416 Rem Mag, the latter being much more available and above all in cheaper rifles. Ballistically there may be some advantages between caliber .411 and .416, but I am not sure if they are relevant for hunting. The alleged problems cited with the cartridge 416 Rem Mag are only a question of loads. As far as pressures are concerned, the same pressure is required for the same performance as long as the size of the cases and their shape are more or less similar.