Mark Sullivan kicked out of SCI

[Bert the Turtle]

Bert the Turtle

the fact remains that the Cape Buffalo in Mark Sullivan videos have all been wounded by the client. The video i watched shows that the client was with in 40 yards and wounded the buffalo...so it stand to reason that for the client to make the shot he would need to be closer that the 40 yards...

Let me ask you a question if you have 2 shots in a double rifle would you use them early or wait until the cape buffalo is close for a sure kill shot? It takes time to reload and being out of lead at a critical time could be hazardous to your health.


I cannot tell from the videos who wounded the animals. Nor can I tell tell caliber of the wound. I will leave it at that.

The video I saw had MS saying "don't shoot, don't shoot" over and over again to the client, generally when there was an animal well within range to be easily shot. Then I heard a gunshot and MS simultaneously or slightly subsequently saying "shoot", not giving the client the slightest chance of shooting.

If it were me with the double rifle, I would be asking the client to shoot the animal, not telling him to hold fire when the animal is 40 yards away and still on its feet. I believe in shooting what you can when you can. If he did not or could not shoot, I would at least put one through the chest as soon as a reasonable shot presented itself while the animal was standing broadside as they were in the video. If I needed the animal to be closer than 40 yards for that, I'd find another rifle or another line of work. That would still leave one in the chamber for a close shot, could well prevent a charge, and may well leave time for a reload if it staggered the animal.

 

[James.Grage]

Bert the Turtle

Maybe your PH shoots your game animals, they do not do that for me and the majority of hunters on this forum...so it would be safe to say that the clients have wounded the cape buffalo in Sullivan's DVD's...

Bert the video i watched had 3 individuals plus Mark Sullivan for the 4 man and the 3 other client + PH that did shoot at the charging buffalo all shots were with in 30 yards with mark taking the last shot and killing the buffalo with in 10 yards...the other 3 individuals each shot 2 times and were out of lead.

It has been awhile since i watched the DVD and you want to know what, the shots the other 3 shooters had taken at the running buffalo all shots did not hit the running buffalo...and we are talking from 10 to 30 yards...

I just watched a new DVD by Boddington and hunting dangerous game all bets are off after the first shot on Cape Buffalo if you do not make a good first shot. The video also showed what wounded Simba the Lion, Chue the Leopard, Tambo - the Elephant and M'bogo the Cape Buffalo are shot at close very range and problems develop...and as stated many times the hunter is not invited for the followup of the wounded game...Many hunters simply will not have time to reload at short distances 40 yards or closer...that is why a double rifle is the weapon of choice for many in thick heavy cover...as his video indicates some times with a double rifle you only get one shot...

 

[TERMINATOR]

Dugaboy . . . everyone is entitled to an opinion, yet I believe there have been many instances of raw naivete shown throughout this thread. But I think you nailed the situation quite well and are spot on in all you've said on the matter.

I also heartily agree that if the same disrespect and showmanship were directed at a lion . . . the show would close in the first act and the curtains would be permanently drawn. End of show.

I agree with Dugaboy. I will say that IF I was to wound a Cape Buffalo and he charged Mark would be a great guy to have next to you.

That said, it is OBVIOUS by pure statistics that he is having his clients purposedly wound animals and doing everything to invite a charge. I mean, he gets charged more on one video than most DG PH's do in a lifetime.

Either he has the misfortune of getting an extraordinary amount of poor shot clients or he is simply the most "unlucky" PH ever to face so many charges....OR the animals are being wounded intentionally.

Most DG PH's can count on one hand how many times they have actually been charged yet it apparently happens on every hunt for Mark.

 

[Msmi27]

I think most of the people are being hyper critical of Mark. The bottom line is we are all hunting and "killing" game in some form or another. I think sterilizing videos and making palatable for non-hunters isn't doing us any favors, why should we care what anyone that has an illogical preconceived notion on what hunting truly involves. If you don't like his videos, then don't watch or buy them. man is the apex predator, start acting like it, at least Mark doesn't pretend and that's why I salute him! For the rest of the critics, stay on your game farms, fair chase in the bush isn't for you anyway...

 

[spike.t]

msmi i really think you dont know what you are talking about, and your attitude sucks. a friend bought the whole set of sullivans dvds and what a load of egotistical crap most of the content was. as has been stated he wouldnt let clients shoot when any other ph would, instead he especially on a hippo hunting dvd on land kept pushing the animal to provoke a charge so presumably he could shoot as well. then came out with crap "hey bwana didnt that make you feel like a man" or other such drivvle. in another you could hear his son and himself fire at an unwounded lion before the client got a chance to shoot. no body approaches a wounded buffalo that is down from the front as he does. this is all done to provoke a charge as can be seen on his dvds. as for sterilizing dvds i think you are being insulting to the people who produce some fine hunting dvds. we found his dvds so full of sh.t that we couldnt be bothered to watch them all. i think all he did was to feed his own ego which is not what its about.

 

[ngorongoro]

the way mark hunts

mark sullivan hunts the proper way no matter what people think even if he is doing it that way because of making a movie...he is a "professional".. walks upto the animal and hunts like a hunter not just "killing" an animal from a distance.. it takes guts to do that putting his own life in danger. mark is a good ffriend of mine and i salute him.. in my books he is or probably is one of the best professional hunters around...

 

[spike.t]

whatever,

 

[Msmi27]

Nice attitude. Why do you care "TOO" much?
I think you had better take look at some of the other so called "hunting" videos out there....it's nothing more then "killing" over water or a bait piles in fenced in game farms. I will spend my money hunting with a professional like Mark any day.

 

[TERMINATOR]

Nice attitude. Why do you care "TOO" much?
I think you had better take look at some of the other so called "hunting" videos out there....it's nothing more then "killing" over water or a bait piles in fenced in game farms. I will spend my money hunting with a professional like Mark any day.

One thing I agree with you on is that the "TV & Video" Hunting industry is built on either 1) High Fence Hunting Over Feeders 2) Insanely Expensive Hunts On Highly Managed Land That Most People Can't Afford

I hate them all as they do everything they can to make a guy that just goes hunting and shoots a buck or a doe so he can experience the woods and enjoy something to eat something that is inferior.

Sullivan...ehh...I think he is a pompus azz and believe he purposely wounds the animals to provoke charges and delays their death tourturing the animals for "more exciting video"

So I think he is a little worse than the guys shooting 190 Bucks in a pen under a feeder...but not by much!

 

[Rohan]

Unfortunately in all his dvds there are so many charges and wounded animals that one has to ask if he purposefully allows bad shot placement in order to entice a charge for the sake of making money, period. Its not a question of whether he is a great hunter, we all know he knows how to hunt and how to hunt ethically which is why he is in the spotlight, its about whether he knowingly allows the animals that are booked in his hunts to experience unnecessary pain - which is not what Professional Hunters are called to do, they are called (amongst many other things) to ensure a quick and clean dispatch as far as possible whether it be up close or from a distance or over a bait or from a blind.

We all shoot from a blind or over a bait or from a distance including Mark Sullivan because I have seen clips where he or his clients have taken leopards from within a blind over a bait. We are all in the same boat because we end the lives of wild animals against their will, so its pointless to make a distinction between shooting from a distance and going right up close or between a blind and so on etc because at the end the animals don't care. We hunt these animals and they have no say in the matter, so we devise certain regulations to ensure a minimal amount of suffering for the animal and as far as possible an authentic hunting experience.

The question is whether Mark Sullivan attempts to hunt within legislation, not whether he can do something others don't want to do or are too scared to do or are incapable of doing, because though he can and does do those things which others can't or are too afraid of doing, the things he does are in breech of certain ethical rules whether written or unwritten.

The reason Mark Sullivan is under such scrutiny is because he possibly allows animals to experience pain when he could in fact minimise the duration of that pain the way PHs are supposed to. I'm sure Mark Sullivan is quite the PH but his dvd footage shows evidence of a possible breech in his duties as a PH. I'm not saying he IS guilty of anything, I'm saying the question is about his application of ethics and not his application of bravado, because it is quite clear that he has the balls to walk right up to hippos and buffs and piss them off until the inevitable which is something not anyone can(or should) do because hunting is not about absolute ego even though an element of ego is part and parcel of hunting: we all like to measure trophies and compare calibres at some point...

SCI banned him because this is not the hunting they promote, this is bravado at the expense of the face of ethical hunting. If his bravado was less ego and money and more hunting he would be a favourite amongst even more people and make lots of money, as he is indeed a skilled PH, save for his taunting of wounded animals that are in pain and under duress.

There is no way getting around the fact that as a PH he allows wounded animals to suffer longer than they should, if you don't believe that, go and watch his dvds.

 

[TOM]

Very well said.... :happywave:

 

[TERMINATOR]

Very well said.... :happywave:

Yes it was well said.

There is no doubt Mark is very good at what he does and has giant balls.

But there are plenty of PH's who are very good and calm under fire that don't torture the animals with intentional wounding shots and delayed kills.

Personally I would rather hunt DG with guys like John Sharp and Kevin Thomas who are good at what they do, care about the animals and put the client above their own ego's

 

[Msmi27]

I'll conceded you make some good points. the bait I was referring to wasn't dangerous game baiting, it was deer feeders.
I find it somewhat ironic that SCI allows guys like Mark to help build a brand and promote an industry that has become a multi-million industry, but then does a 180 on him...
I'm glad i still reside in a free market system, where I am free to spend my money as I choose. Disagree with me or not there are several of hunting organizations that have grown a bit big for their britches. Next time you sign up or go to a dinner, ask yourselves "where is the ROI my investment going to?" ....it's brand building just like everything else.

 

[Code4]

There is one complement I can give Mark Sullivan. He is a very astute marketer who has made a living from and identified a niche of consumers who are happy to pay for his product. As I stated earlier, they make up a percentage of the Safari 'Industry' and are clearly being catered for by him.

 

[James.Grage]

It is interesting that this forum topic was brought again.

I would like to ask a question of all on here.

Who shoots to wound an animal? Tell me one hunter who does this.

While Mark Sullivan video are a topic of discussion, how many hunting clients has he had and how many charges has occurred.

I have watched other video and seen hunter miss and wound a cape buffalo at less that 40 yards? Were these hunters shooting to wound the animal?

Now if a hunter wounds a Cape Buffalo at say 30 yards, how close will the PH have to get his client before he is able to make a killing shot. 20 yards, 15 yards, 10 yards what distance are you willing to close in order to make the finishing shot.

My first Cape Buffalo we stalked up on was about 40 yards away and i brought my rented double rifle with open sights up and was asked how i felt about making the shot, i said "piece of cake" we did not shoot that cape buffalo as he had a soft boss. However the next day we again stalked to with in 40 yards of an old dagga boy and i was able to make an off hand shot at 40 yards and wham o down the Cape Buffalo went.

The trackers were very excited as they were prepared for a track and follow up, very few hunter make that kind of shot i was told. That year all Cape Buffalo in this camp were tracked and most needed follow up shots. One tracker was all black and blue from another clients wounded cape buffalo. Now how many of these hunters wounded there cape buffalo on purpose for the excitement of watching the trackers do there work and making a followup shot.

Boy these guys were happy to see that the new client could shoot and hit what he was aiming at. Many do not.

 

[sestoppelman]

I doubt more than a handful of hunters anywhere would purposely wound any animal, especially for the sake of good video. But it would not surprise me overly much to find out that it does happen.

 

[35bore]

I was not going to comment again on this subject, but, this thread has a life of it's own.

Whether you like his hunting style or not, he is very handy and calm with that 600NE. IF one of us were to face a buff charge, he would be the man to back up your follow-up shot/shots. After reading throughout this thread again, and I will admit that I was unaware of any "intentionally" injuring of a DG animal. On several of his video's it appears that it is somewhat fast paced and some of the finishing shot (some definetly not all) are not charges.

My guess would be that if you booked with him, and told him up front, you wanted to dispatch the animal of choice as quickly as possible after the first shot he would (your hunt just wouldn't make in on the video)...

He shakes hands (on the videos) with some of the guys that make the one shot kills as well. Then again this thread seems to be about the "forced charges"

Gonna end my rant with the fact that I remember seeing (retired) Col. Boddington standing over a fallen Buff with Sullivan in the picture (think it was a Turnbull advertisement) and I guarentee that Boddington would not hunt this way, he is the ethical of ethics.

BTW, Balls the size of church bells, in my opinion.

 

[Rohan]

I also don't know if Mark Sullivan actually wounds animals on purpose etc, the point of my post on this thread is that he is under fire for POSSIBLY wounding on purpose because of the content of his dvds and that he his not under fire for other stuff.

If I understand it correctly (in it's simplest form) his expulsion from SCI is because he allows animals to suffer when he could have finished them off sooner, and for the possibility that he allows animals to be wounded in order to elicit a charge that makes for a good dvd, and other SCI things that he was in breech of in terms of the content of his dvds.

I also believe it is quite strange that someone would wound on purpose, however, there are clear and distinct incidence in his dvds of him having ample opportunity to finish off an animal but instead tells the client, "wait lets see how he wants to die..", I assure you that the animal does not want to die, therefore a tired and wounded and defensive animal like a buff will charge indefinitely. So as far as not finishing off an animal when he or his clients could, whether wounded intentionally or not, I think it is safe to say there is cause for concern there. As far as wounding intentionally to elicit a charge, there is no evidence of that.

Granted buffalo and the like don't always go down on the first round but for it to happen so many times for one PH has got to raise some 'questions' in your own mind. But maybe it happens more often to him because he is always hunting DG, so it would naturally occurr more than often in comparison to other PHs who dont hunt DG as often, so is it fair to draw such a comparison? I wouldn't know as i'm not a DG hunter or a PH...

Like I said I don't know if he is guilty of wounding on purpose because there is no hard evidence of that and it is a strange notion as an animal can just as well bolt off into the horizon never to be seen again as oppossed to charging indefintely, so such a decision to wound on purpose instead of taking the cleanest shot is a questionable notion and someone would have to be very knowledgeable of what they were doing, or just plain dumb. I cannot bring myself to even think of a hypothetical situation where I would wound on purpose, it's just not logic in any way. I do think that there is enough evidence in his dvds to show that on those specific hunting trips on the dvds he sometimes did not allow his clients to finish off the animal when needed and instead waited for a perfect 'charge shot', and there is also hard eveidence in his dvds that he provoked charges for the sake of getting a good dvd clip, I think of one hippo clip specifically. There is simply no way around those two facts because he had it filmed and then he had it published and its on hardcopies for all to see. I think SCI expelled him because this is not in the spirit of hunting: provoking charges, delaying the finishing off shot, then also the machoism and other that go with it...to air this to the public as 'hunting' is not what SCI sets out to achieve.

Mark Sullivan has reached more of the non-hunting community than most PHs will ever do in their entire lives, and this is good because it gets hunting out there in the world and causes awareness and business. On the downside Mark Sullivan has misrepresented hunting in this way and also fuelled our anti-hunting community with more ammunition, but, all other hunting dvds are also used as ammuniton against the hunting community, so is it fair to even bring that up??? And this is not pertinent to his expulsion from SCI.

There are clips in the very dvds under question that I have seen where I don't think there is any foul play at hand and perhaps it is just his demeanour that sets people off, for me I think he is a bit too much about "Hollywood" but I try to see that this one thing I dislike about him is not the sole reasoning for me seeing other faults or exaggerating other incidences et. Because I dislike a way about someone or because they just rub me up the wrong way is not cause for suspiscion unless I have hard evidence. To discredit him for the sake of the current hype I think is useless. Work with facts.

I think James has the right questions there, 'How many charges? How many hunts? How many clients?'

All this said, nothing can change what we have seen on dvd and I was not impressed with certain clips where he had more than enough opportunity to end off the quarry but never did, because it was 1) Prolonging the suffering of the wounded animal; 2) Obviously for the purposes of marketing a dvd.

I don't know him personally, and i'm not questioning his personal character or moral values outside of this specific topic.

 

[TERMINATOR]

"Mark Sullivan has reached more of the non-hunting community than most PHs will ever do in their entire lives, and this is good because it gets hunting out there in the world"

I see that as the biggest problem. If his style of "hunting" truly IS seen by more non-hunters than any other...including the gloating and standing over a suffering animal....

Well THAT just fans the flames of the anti-hunting movement

 

[35bore]

I also don't know if Mark Sullivan actually wounds animals on purpose etc, the point of my post on this thread is that he is under fire for POSSIBLY wounding on purpose because of the content of his dvds and that he his not under fire for other stuff.

If I understand it correctly (in it's simplest form) his expulsion from SCI is because he allows animals to suffer when he could have finished them off sooner, and for the possibility that he allows animals to be wounded in order to elicit a charge that makes for a good dvd, and other SCI things that he was in breech of in terms of the content of his dvds.

I also believe it is quite strange that someone would wound on purpose, however, there are clear and distinct incidence in his dvds of him having ample opportunity to finish off an animal but instead tells the client, "wait lets see how he wants to die..", I assure you that the animal does not want to die, therefore a tired and wounded and defensive animal like a buff will charge indefinitely. So as far as not finishing off an animal when he or his clients could, whether wounded intentionally or not, I think it is safe to say there is cause for concern there. As far as wounding intentionally to elicit a charge, there is no evidence of that.

Granted buffalo and the like don't always go down on the first round but for it to happen so many times for one PH has got to raise some 'questions' in your own mind. But maybe it happens more often to him because he is always hunting DG, so it would naturally occurr more than often in comparison to other PHs who dont hunt DG as often, so is it fair to draw such a comparison? I wouldn't know as i'm not a DG hunter or a PH...

Like I said I don't know if he is guilty of wounding on purpose because there is no hard evidence of that and it is a strange notion as an animal can just as well bolt off into the horizon never to be seen again as oppossed to charging indefintely, so such a decision to wound on purpose instead of taking the cleanest shot is a questionable notion and someone would have to be very knowledgeable of what they were doing, or just plain dumb. I cannot bring myself to even think of a hypothetical situation where I would wound on purpose, it's just not logic in any way. I do think that there is enough evidence in his dvds to show that on those specific hunting trips on the dvds he sometimes did not allow his clients to finish off the animal when needed and instead waited for a perfect 'charge shot', and there is also hard eveidence in his dvds that he provoked charges for the sake of getting a good dvd clip, I think of one hippo clip specifically. There is simply no way around those two facts because he had it filmed and then he had it published and its on hardcopies for all to see. I think SCI expelled him because this is not in the spirit of hunting: provoking charges, delaying the finishing off shot, then also the machoism and other that go with it...to air this to the public as 'hunting' is not what SCI sets out to achieve.

Mark Sullivan has reached more of the non-hunting community than most PHs will ever do in their entire lives, and this is good because it gets hunting out there in the world and causes awareness and business. On the downside Mark Sullivan has misrepresented hunting in this way and also fuelled our anti-hunting community with more ammunition, but, all other hunting dvds are also used as ammuniton against the hunting community, so is it fair to even bring that up??? And this is not pertinent to his expulsion from SCI.

There are clips in the very dvds under question that I have seen where I don't think there is any foul play at hand and perhaps it is just his demeanour that sets people off, for me I think he is a bit too much about "Hollywood" but I try to see that this one thing I dislike about him is not the sole reasoning for me seeing other faults or exaggerating other incidences et. Because I dislike a way about someone or because they just rub me up the wrong way is not cause for suspiscion unless I have hard evidence. To discredit him for the sake of the current hype I think is useless. Work with facts.

I think James has the right questions there, 'How many charges? How many hunts? How many clients?'

All this said, nothing can change what we have seen on dvd and I was not impressed with certain clips where he had more than enough opportunity to end off the quarry but never did, because it was 1) Prolonging the suffering of the wounded animal; 2) Obviously for the purposes of marketing a dvd.

I don't know him personally, and i'm not questioning his personal character or moral values outside of this specific topic.

I guess my point, if I want to clean this animal up, so to speak, and I am paying the bill? Even the worse PH is going for the imediate $$$$. video or hard cash????


Sorry, what he does sells, plain and simple, is it right or wrong? It is up to the individual. I would not hesitate. Would I rather the one shot kill, of course, but if I had a follow up, who better to be at your side?

Again money talks, you say F*!K the video, I don't want the animal to suffer, guess who's going to listen, Mark.