Mannlicher Schönauer 'Prewar' M1900, M1903, M1905, M1908, M1910, M1924, 'M1925' or 'High Velocity'

[Brian Rothhammer]

You sure you weren’t a detective in another life?

Mad scientist, perhaps:

 

[MS 9x56]

It’s ALIVE!!!!

 

[Certus]

Voted M1910 as that’s what and the cartridge is a dandy for Aus and America.

My rifle came from africa and was “the farm gun”. Supposedy shot lion and buffalo, with its last use on a Kudu @150 in 1995.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Voted M1910 as that’s what and the cartridge is a dandy for Aus and America.

My rifle came from africa and was “the farm gun”. Supposedy shot lion and buffalo, with its last use on a Kudu @150 in 1995.

Game taken by Grand Dad with his M1910 Takedown Model in Ceylon, 1932:

*Images owned by Brian Rothhammer

 

[M1903]

Hi All, I'm new on this site and have found you due to your wealth of combined knowledge, and the lack of mine!
I have a m1903 (6.5x54) Takedown that has been passed down through generations, I am trying to fi d a production year but it lacks many proof marks.
I'm sure it is pre 1924 due to action markings, but I'm a bit lost from there.
Some photos if anyone can help?

 

[SaintPanzer]

Love my 1903 and 1910, but I really want to get my hands on a Sequoia. Of course, I do prefer the stutzen, so...

 

[M1903]

Couple more photos

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

I have a m1903 (6.5x54) Takedown that has been passed down through generations, I am trying to fi d a production year but it lacks many proof marks.
I'm sure it is pre 1924 due to action markings, but I'm a bit lost from there.

A few things are evident from the photos:

Osterr. Waffenfabr. Ges-Steyr = receiver built no later than 1926.
- Lack of 'Made In Austria' on receiver bridge = no later than 1924.
- Serial numbers matching on bolt, stock, receiver - those are good things.
- Circle 'T' stamp - Believed by many to indicate Tiegelgusstahl, a superior grade of steel, but some say a mere inspector's mark.
- You have a 'special folding peep sight', listed in the 1939 Stoeger Catalog as a $12.00 cost option (frequently seen on Take Down models).
- Your front sight is rebated (set back) from the muzzle as seen on some examples, often earlier ones.
- Your receiver is marked Patent Mannlicher Schoenauer as is my 1922 proofed M1910 Take Down. Later MS are often marked Original Mannlicher Schoenauer.


The odd metal work added to grip may be concealing repair / damage to stock
The holes for a side mounted scope are unfortunate.
There's something odd about the butt plate. Does it have the 'trap door' and, if so, are the cleaning rods present?

She's rather worn. How's the bore? Is it the proper 6.5X54 or altered?

Noticeably absent are the usual Austrian proof marks such as these:

Example shown above was the 411th arm to be 'nitro proofed' at Vienna during 1908, Steyr serial number 4143, chambered for 6.5mm (M1903).


Are there any other stamps / marks / clues?

From what is shown it can be said to have been produced between 1905 (year of initial M1903 production) and 1924 (year 'Made In Austria' stamp was required).

As you do have the Steyr serial number of 6187, perhaps you could compare that to other examples of M1903 with known proof dates.

Do you know its history / hunting use?

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Love my 1903 and 1910, but I really want to get my hands on a Sequoia. Of course, I do prefer the stutzen, so...

You know I'm more than happy to have Grand Dad's M1910 Take Down but I, too, would like to have an M1924 Stutzen to keep her company.

I wouldn't turn down a 'prewar' 10.75X68, either.

 

[M1903]

It has been in New Zealand since 1930 or earlier, unknown history before that. It has shot on of the second highest scoring Wapiti Bull from NZ in 1952 with my Grandfather. It was lost in a river during a flooded crossing on the Doon River in Fordland NZ and was recovered a few weeks later, that crossing become known as "Mannlicher Crossing" It has shot a nice imperial Red Deer head that is in my parents house and many Royal Red deer heads. I shot my first deer with it in 1988.
It has been in our family for 4 generations. I had a broken stock at some unknown point in time and was repaired using copper and brass, when the rifle was handed to me it had been locked in a cupboard for 30 years or so! The copper plates were broken and the butt was very wobbly. I stripped the oil out of the stock using acetone and rebuilt the wood using Everdure and the epoxied glued back together. I made new plates from the pattern of the old plates and refitted because throughout our history hunting photos it has the copper plates fitted. I think the original NZ owner was a Safari hunter is he had Antelope trophy's in his trophy room. The original NZ was born around 1900 so was probably not the first owner. The butt plate has a trap door and my father said the cleaning rod where with the rifle 50 years age, but my uncles have had possession of it over the years and who knows where they are now?
The barrel is 50% and is original 6.5 X 54mm, it shoots 2MOA consistently.

 

[SaintPanzer]

You know I'm more than happy to have Grand Dad's M1910 Take Down but I, too, would like to have an M1924 Stutzen to keep her company.

I wouldn't turn down a 'prewar' 10.75X68, either.

I'm willing to be educated, but my understanding is all the M1924s were Sequoia .30-06s with 24 inch barrels. Those not sold by Sequoia were sent back and re-sold in Europe. Then, M1925s were built using the same action length, but chambered with more "European" ammunition types, such as 7X64mm. Keep in mind a .30-06 is 7.62X63. Yes, I would take an M1925 Stutzen in .30-06. Haven't found one yet. Had a line on one proofed in 1935, but was out-bid. I need to be more aggressive in my bidding. May instead just have a new one made in Austria. Still thinking about it...

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

I'm willing to be educated, but my understanding is all the M1924s were Sequoia .30-06s with 24 inch barrels.

Well, 'kinda - sorta'.

Basically, you're right... 'but';

There are few (if any) 'cut and dry' hard facts regarding Mannlicher Schoenauer varieties.

There actually never was an 'M1925' designation that I am aware of from Steyr and early examples were, indeed, built up of spare M1924 parts.

While the .30 - '06 MS, with its longer action and magazine than previous models and 'guide rings' added to magazine, was initially advertised by the Sequoia Importing Co. of San Francisco and Detroit as a 'half stocked', 24 inch (actually 60 cm) barrel rifle with three leaf rear sight, Steyr was known to be rather accommodating of custom orders.

Here is Sequoia #202 with the special folding peep sight option, apparently factory installed:

If the peep sight was added at the factory (it appears to be), is it likely that other 'custom options' were available on original Sequoia contract rifles?

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Here is a rather interesting British retailed, cased, Take Down model that retains its 'M1924' marking with number matched barrel (though lacking 'Sequoia' stamp) that was Vienna proofed in 1928 on OWGS marked receiver.

Is it to be considered 'M1924', 'Sequoia', 'High Velocity', or the later used catch - all 'M1925' designation that was never used by Steyr?

I don't think a link to it would survive moderator edit, as it is on a 'competing' site, so I'll cut and paste relevant bits:

I Found this example a few years ago looking for a new home.
The only example I’ve seen marked 1924 and in take down form. It is of course chambered in 3006.
It was proofed in 1928.
The rifle can be described as in Good overall condition.
The Serial number 636 does appear to be in the dedicated number range for Sequoia rifles and at the higher end of those currently known It Appears retailed by CB Vaughan of London, (English Market), who was in fact a consistent RETAILER of Mannlicher rifles.
I’m guessing its left over stock from the failed Sequoia order and managed to escape any remarking. It does NOT have the Sequoia reference on the barrel, but does have the typical multi leaf folding sight.
Something of interest (or not) is the front TD fastener. In place of the spring-loaded pin it has a threaded screw. My first reaction is to say that’s an aftermarket replacement for a lost pin.
The offside of the pin escthochoen is threaded to take the screw.
Whoever made it, factory or otherwise knew what they were doing. Further there were two spares in its case along with a pull through.
Factory, or (English) Gun maker??

If we consider Sequoia rifles to be relatively rare, then I’m tempted to think this example be may quite uncommon.
If anyone has a 1924 in this format, or knows of one please let me know, I’m keen to compare notes on this rather different English Model.

Best
Eric

As it is apparently one of the unsold examples left over from the Sequoia contract it could be accurately described as 'High Velocity' or even as 'M1925' (though no one called them 'M1925' at the time).

The Sequoia #202 example shown above with peep sight option, however, illustrates to me that there were variants and added 'cost options' allowed on original Sequoia contract models (202 being a somewhat low number). That is assuming the sight was not expertly added post manufacture.

Going further on a limb of assumption, I'd bet that a customer who contacted Sequoia Importing in 1924 with desire to order one or more stutzen stocked examples of MS in .30 - 06 would find themselves accommodated.

In later years one could order several combinations of features from those listed direct from Stoeger and custom options not listed in their 1939 catalog have been observed 'in the wild'.
By 1939 one would think they would lack 'M1924' markings but who knows? I have seen photos of some very unusual combinations of features on Anschluss period MS, at least one of which has been discussed here on AH.

Stoeger, 1939. Note 'Full Stock in Rifles That Usually Have Half Stock' and various barrel length options. Stoeger also listed '30 - '06 among the 'carbine' offerings by then.

In brief, you're right.
An 'off the shelf' M1924 Sequoia would be a half stocked rifle with 60 cm barrel.
A Stutzen stocked .30 - '06, pre WW2, MS would be more accurately termed as 'Carbine' or a custom ordered 'High Velocity' and would today be commonly referred to as 'M1925'.

In the world of custom ordered MS, however, who knows?

Here are a couple of replies to the posted M1924 Take Down by NE members Louis and Axel Eichendorff, whose information and opinions I hold in very high regard;

Louis:
Paradox, congratulations on your rare and much desirable rifle about which I will make the following comments:
- A real crossbred mounted on a M.1924 action possibly/probably manufactured for the Sequoia contract but never exported to the US and reaching market at a later date; without the M.1924 marking it would be considered a M.1925 High Velocity model. The use of such in-stock parts was quite common in those days and we all have in mind Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles still marked Osterreichische Waffenfabrikgesellschaft while being manufactured in the post-1926 era or Mauser ones still mentioning Waffenfabrik Mauser while being issued by Mauserwerke AG....
Louis

Kuduae (A. Eichendorff):
636 is the highest serial number on a M.1924 marked Mannlicher - Schoenauer I have seen yet. To me, it was special order / custom rifle built on a left-over action and barrel. Steyr was always willing to concoct special rifles with non – catalogued features to the customer’s wishes.
The “High Velocity” monicker was not invented by Stoeger. It appears in the 1929 english language catalog of the Steyr – Werke AG. In contemporary Austrian German they called it “Hochrasanz – Repetierstutzen”, as did Burgsmueller, Kreiensen, in their about 1930 catalog. The also 1930 A.Frank, Hamburg, export catalog called it “Hochrasanz – Büchse” in German and “Repeating rifle for high velocity cartridges” in English. “Rasance” was originally a French artillery term for flatness of trajectory, but was used for bullet velocity later. So “Hochrasanz” was used for “High Velocity”. “M.1925” may come from a 1925 Steyr catalog which first mentioned the Hochrasanz – Stutzen. It was first offered in 7x64, 7.62x63 = .30-06 and 8x60 Magnum (S) only. By 1935 7x57, 9.3x62 and 10.75x68 were added to the caliber options. Apparently there were plenty of unloved (in Europe) M1924 .30-06 parts still available as this chambering was offered at a 10% discount at first.

The switchover from “Made in Austria” to “Made in Germany” and from the Austriaan to German proofmarks was not immediately on March 12, 1938, the day of the “Anschluss”. There were still guns and parts in stock with the Austria marking. And the proofhouses Vienna, Ferlach, Weipert and Prague continued to use their old stamps until spring 1940, when the new proof law and new proofmarks became mandatory for all “Grossdeutschland”.

'Paradox' (owner of M1924 TD) later noted that a higher numbered Sequoia, #847, has been observed.

To me, these 'off beat' varieties and special orders add considerably to the lore of der Mannlicher Schoenauer.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

It has been in New Zealand since 1930 or earlier, unknown history before that. It has shot on of the second highest scoring Wapiti Bull from NZ in 1952 with my Grandfather. It was lost in a river during a flooded crossing on the Doon River in Fordland NZ and was recovered a few weeks later, that crossing become known as "Mannlicher Crossing" It has shot a nice imperial Red Deer head that is in my parents house and many Royal Red deer heads. I shot my first deer with it in 1988.
It has been in our family for 4 generations. I had a broken stock at some unknown point in time and was repaired using copper and brass, when the rifle was handed to me it had been locked in a cupboard for 30 years or so! The copper plates were broken and the butt was very wobbly. I stripped the oil out of the stock using acetone and rebuilt the wood using Everdure and the epoxied glued back together. I made new plates from the pattern of the old plates and refitted because throughout our history hunting photos it has the copper plates fitted. I think the original NZ owner was a Safari hunter is he had Antelope trophy's in his trophy room. The original NZ was born around 1900 so was probably not the first owner. The butt plate has a trap door and my father said the cleaning rod where with the rifle 50 years age, but my uncles have had possession of it over the years and who knows where they are now?
The barrel is 50% and is original 6.5 X 54mm, it shoots 2MOA consistently.

Wow!

That is quite some provenance and family history.

Clearly this fully functional historic artifact has come to be in the right hands, after the 'Mannlicher Crossing' episode and all!
How many of us have a specific rifle (or anything) for which a geographic feature has been named?

The modifications are so much a part of this particular artifact's history. Your restoration of them is what my Grandmother would have termed a true "labor of love".

Have you considered replacing the side mount or filling the holes?

I strongly suspect that your grandchildren... will not only own and admire, but use this fine sporting arm and tell its stories to future generations while creating more adventures of their own.

More rifles should have such rich and complete 'lives'.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

The butt plate has a trap door and my father said the cleaning rod where with the rifle 50 years age, but my uncles have had possession of it over the years and who knows where they are now?

Reproduction cleaning rod set on Ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154266410449?hash=item23eafe9dd1:g:K3sAAOSwIWtf6hOr

 

[Boone66]

Indeed, the pre - M1924 MS has the smoothest action and magazine feed of any firearm you'll ever handle provided it is fed ammunition of the proper profile, particularly overall length and shape of bullet tip. With the addition of the 'guide ring' to the Schoenauer magazine that occurred with the M1924, such careful feeding is not as crucial.

Scope mounts, you say? Here's more fun stuff from the '39 Stoeger:

First a 'claw mount' for Mousies. Note the 'see through' rings. My M1910 Takedown MS wears a Gerard B on claw mounts.
View attachment 263073
View attachment 263074 View attachment 263075 View attachment 263076
View attachment 263077
View attachment 263078

This is the sweet little unit that goes on the back of n MS bolt.

I saw one of these mounted to MS in.a.pawn shop, the rifle was worn, but I wanted.that sight for my 1905 and figured I would sort out the other rifle in time, but the shop wanted a mint for the rifle, so I passed. It was neat to see the sight In person though.