Mannlicher model 1905 in Africa

[HWL]

I am attempting to add picture. Top is my CZ 550 FS in 9.3x62, next is the MS model 1905 in 9x56 MS bottom is ruger 77 RSI in savage 250-3000.View attachment 354815

Beautiful rifles.... each more beautiful than the other!!!

But the 9x56 is the finest...... do you have ammunition,...reloaded?

Mine works best with the 280 gr Swift A-Frame.

HWL

 

[MS 9x56]

Beautiful rifles.... each more beautiful than the other!!!

But the 9x56 is the finest...... do you have ammunition,...reloaded?

Mine works best with the 280 gr Swift A-Frame.

HWL

I went through quite an ordeal to get loads made up as mine has a tight chamber which I found out when I tried forming cases from 8x57 mauser, too tight. Then found 358 bullets were causing sticky bolt lift, high pressure. Had to swage them down to 355. I am now shooting 200 grain speer round nose after swaging them down to 355. It was an education but I couldn't be any happier with performance now. It carries like a magic wand, points right where I am looking, and hits like Thor's hammer. I can't wait to take it to Africa one day.

 

[MS 9x56]

Beautiful rifles.... each more beautiful than the other!!!

But the 9x56 is the finest...... do you have ammunition,...reloaded?

Mine works best with the 280 gr Swift A-Frame.

HWL

I can not source the 280 grain Swift A Frame here. I will attempt to contact their customer service as I would be very interested in trying them. Do you know are they sized .355 or .358? Winchester is marketing a new 350 legend bullet that comes in 180 grain I may also try as they are .355"

 

[HWL]

Do not worry about the .355 diameter you can find in literature.....

Actually, the CIP groove diameter of the 9x56 Mannlicher-Schoenauer is 9,15 mm/.360 dia.!!!

It can handle .358 dia bullets easily...

I also have tried the 225 gr. Sierra, works fine.

Just calculate it with QuickLoad.


HWL

 

[steve white]

There was quite a bit of variation in the bore diameter of the 1905s--always a good idea to have it measured...seems like you have it well sorted.

 

[HWL]

There was quite a bit of variation in the bore diameter of the 1905s--always a good idea to have it measured...seems like you have it well sorted.

Not to rely, and check things yourself always is a good idea....

HWL

 

[MS 9x56]

Do not worry about the .355 diameter you can find in literature.....

Actually, the CIP groove diameter of the 9x56 Mannlicher-Schoenauer is 9,15 mm/.360 dia.!!!

It can handle .358 dia bullets easily...

I also have tried the 225 gr. Sierra, works fine.

Just calculate it with QuickLoad.


HWL

I didn’t get that .355 figure out of a book. I got it by slugging the barrel. You have to remember this gun was made by hand 99 years ago. Specifications were more like guidelines back then. I had read where this caliber rifle varies from 353 to 360. As I have said before every gun is an entity unto itself. But thank you for the suggestion. That’s what I love about this forum is the free exchange of ideas.

 

[HWL]

.355 is the diameter of groove or land of your rifle?

HWL

 

[MS 9x56]

.355 is the diameter of groove or land of your rifle?

HWL

Land.

 

[HWL]

Land.

Can not believe this... I have never encountered a Steyr barrel that did not meet C.I.P. dimensions, not since 1914..... not in any caliber.

C.I.P. dimensions are 8,80 mm Zug (groove), 9,15 mm Feld (land) .... these are minimum dimensions.

To compare, a .358 Winchester fireing .358 dia. bullets, CIP dimensions are 8,89 mm Zug (groove), 9,09 mm Feld (land).

The .358 Winchester barrel is the tighter barrel and fires the .358 regulary.

The wider 9x56 Mannlicher-Schoenauer barrel fires this diameter easily.

What makes the situation quite strange is, that the original bullets were pretty slim, around .354 diameter.

I measured Kynoch, S&B, PS, and RWS to figure out this.

I feed my 9x56 with .358 dia. bullets, and it works flawlessly.

Nontheless, be responsible and work up your own load carefully.

HWL

 

[MS 9x56]

Can not believe this... I have never encountered a Steyr barrel that did not meet C.I.P. dimensions, not since 1914..... not in any caliber.

C.I.P. dimensions are 8,80 mm Zug (groove), 9,15 mm Feld (land) .... these are minimum dimensions.

To compare, a .358 Winchester fireing .358 dia. bullets, CIP dimensions are 8,89 mm Zug (groove), 9,09 mm Feld (land).

The .358 Winchester barrel is the tighter barrel and fires the .358 regulary.

The wider 9x56 Mannlicher-Schoenauer barrel fires this diameter easily.

What makes the situation quite strange is, that the original bullets were pretty slim, around .354 diameter.

I measured Kynoch, S&B, PS, and RWS to figure out this.

I feed my 9x56 with .358 dia. bullets, and it works flawlessly.

Nontheless, be responsible and work up your own load carefully.

HWL

I have a friend who has same model made in1932 and he said the same thing. I can't explain it and it gave me fits before I got it sorted out

 

[HWL]

I have a friend who has same model made in1932 and he said the same thing. I can't explain it and it gave me fits before I got it sorted out

Rely on your own measurements, I also do.

HWL

 

[MS 9x56]

An important consideration to remember on an African hunt is that a drop of blood equals a trophy fee - you don't get any do-overs. I think that should take most anything over 150 yards off the table regardless of how good one assumes he is with open sights.

As others have suggested, the Limpopo of South Africa would be a good area to count on working within 100 yards of game animals. Phillip Bronkhorst http://www.pbsafaris.com/ could easily put together such a hunt for you, as could several others who are sponsors here. Mike Taylor could do the same in Zambia www.TakeriReserveZambia.com, particularly should a huge sable from its native environment be high on your bucket list. Other sponsors here have similar terrain where your 9x56 would do well.

I finally was able to get to the range and stretch the old girls legs a bit. I would be confident in impala size game to 150 meters. Groups opened up to about 6 inches at 200 meters so with good light and a larger animal such as wildebeest I would take that shot.

 

[Red Leg]

I finally was able to get to the range and stretch the old girls legs a bit. I would be confident in impala size game to 150 meters. Groups opened up to about 6 inches at 200 meters so with good light and a larger animal such as wildebeest I would take that shot.

Maybe. Except you will rarely get a perfectly broadside target, rarely see a bit of ground that looks like a rifle range, and often will be threading a bullet through stuff to hit the necessary spot on that animal.

I spent three decades of my professional life around the profession of arms and a lot of that time using open sights in field conditions. I would not remotely consider using them in taking a shot at a game animal at 200 meters. A human adversary - sure - but I am just as happy to wound him. And of course, there is no trophy fee involved. I assume those 6-inch groups were from the sticks and not the bench?

My experience with wildebeests and the other larger antelope is that the larger target seems to increase the chance of wounding rather lessening it. On zebra, wildebeest, sable, etc there is a lot of animal that will not produce an immediately fatal wound.

Finally, few PH’s are really comfortable with their clients taking true 200 meter shots with scoped rifles (I say “true” because a lot of 100-150 yard shots become 200 - 250 yard shots by crossing the Atlantic - rather like all those 38” buffalo becoming 40’s upon hitting Atlanta).

But look. It’s your safari. I think such a hunt with such a classic firearm is a worthy goal. I would urge you to get with a PH who understands the demands of using open sights and is eager for the challenge. Let him guide you into making the most of such an opportunity. I would urge you to pick an area where encounters are plentiful and the terrain conducive to a close approach.

 

[Dewald]

I need some advice from the pros here. If I were to bring this classic with open sights to Africa where would be the best region to have success with the 9x56 with open sights ? Also what are the game limitations?

Zululand, Kwa-Zulu Natal South Africa
Limpopo South Africa
Southern Zimbabwe ie Chiredzi district etc

You will have to make peace with the idea of going home empty handed. I hunt with open sights often, and limit myself to 50-60m, but I always try to get as close as possible. A blue wildebeest standing quartering away in the shade is a nightmare without a scope. Very few PHs are going to be comfortable with 120m plus shots on game with open sights.

Given the correct bullet choice the calibre is more than sufficient for all plainsgame over here.

 

[Dewald]

My experience with wildebeests and the other larger antelope is that the larger target seems to increase the chance of wounding rather lessening it. On zebra, wildebeest, sable, etc there is a lot of animal that will not produce an immediately fatal wound.

100%. Every year a great number of wildebeest and gemsbuck show local and foreign hunters the entire property at full speed with a non lethal hole through the brisket or above the spine.

 

[MS 9x56]

Maybe. Except you will rarely get a perfectly broadside target, rarely see a bit of ground that looks like a rifle range, and often will be threading a bullet through stuff to hit the necessary spot on that animal.

I spent three decades of my professional life around the profession of arms and a lot of that time using open sights in field conditions. I would not remotely consider using them in taking a shot at a game animal at 200 meters. A human adversary - sure - but I am just as happy to wound him. And of course, there is no trophy fee involved. I assume those 6-inch groups were from the sticks and not the bench?

My experience with wildebeests and the other larger antelope is that the larger target seems to increase the chance of wounding rather lessening it. On zebra, wildebeest, sable, etc there is a lot of animal that will not produce an immediately fatal wound.

Finally, few PH’s are really comfortable with their clients taking true 200 meter shots with scoped rifles (I say “true” because a lot of 100-150 yard shots become 200 - 250 yard shots by crossing the Atlantic - rather like all those 38” buffalo becoming 40’s upon hitting Atlanta).

But look. It’s your safari. I think such a hunt with such a classic firearm is a worthy goal. I would urge you to get with a PH who understands the demands of using open sights and is eager for the challenge. Let him guide you into making the most of such an opportunity. I would urge you to pick an area where encounters are plentiful and the terrain conducive to a close approach.

I appreciate the advice. The target shooting was using a primos trigger stick tripod. Closer is always better and I feel if you are with a PH it would be foolish to take a shot he advises against. Thank you again for the good advice.

 

[Maximumsmoke]

Guys, "groove" diameter is larger than "land" dia. In modern times, most center fire rifle cartridges of between 6mm and 10mm or .25" to .375" have groove diameters from .006" to .008" (0.15 mm to 0.2 mm) larger than the bore/land diameters. For example, the nominal .358 Win diameters are .358 groove, and .350 land.

Land.

If it is the land, the grooves are deeper than the lands. Again, groove diameter is larger than land dia. So is this just a terminology issue MS 9x56, or an issue with measurement of the slug? For sure however, a good slugging job shows the truth for that bore. By the way, the 9x57 Mauser is supposedly nearly indistinguishable from the 9x56 M-S, and it's bullets are .360 dia. with bore at .354. Be that as it may, it does not carry much weight against the truth -- i.e. an actual slugging measurement.

Best Regards,

 

[steve white]

Guys, "groove" diameter is larger than "land" dia. In modern times, most center fire rifle cartridges of between 6mm and 10mm or .25" to .375" have groove diameters from .006" to .008" (0.15 mm to 0.2 mm) larger than the bore/land diameters. For example, the nominal .358 Win diameters are .358 groove, and .350 land.

If it is the land, the grooves are deeper than the lands. Again, groove diameter is larger than land dia. So is this just a terminology issue MS 9x56, or an issue with measurement of the slug? For sure however, a good slugging job shows the truth for that bore. By the way, the 9x57 Mauser is supposedly nearly indistinguishable from the 9x56 M-S, and it's bullets are .360 dia. with bore at .354. Be that as it may, it does not carry much weight against the truth -- i.e. an actual slugging measurement.

Best Regards,

In theory, yes, the 9mm is very close for MS and Mauser....but--in practice, there is more variance in diameter of 9mm bullets than any other metric caliber I know of, even giving the 9.3's a run for the money. I believe HWL was illustrating this, earlier. Of course, there are also some very esoteric 9mm rifles and cartridges by multitudes of makers, and not counting proprietary cartridges. These are things I learned from Don Henry (rip) of the Mannlicher Collectors Assoc. So yes, slug the barrel.

 

[steve white]

Maybe. Except you will rarely get a perfectly broadside target, rarely see a bit of ground that looks like a rifle range, and often will be threading a bullet through stuff to hit the necessary spot on that animal.

I spent three decades of my professional life around the profession of arms and a lot of that time using open sights in field conditions. I would not remotely consider using them in taking a shot at a game animal at 200 meters. A human adversary - sure - but I am just as happy to wound him. And of course, there is no trophy fee involved. I assume those 6-inch groups were from the sticks and not the bench?

My experience with wildebeests and the other larger antelope is that the larger target seems to increase the chance of wounding rather lessening it. On zebra, wildebeest, sable, etc there is a lot of animal that will not produce an immediately fatal wound.

Finally, few PH’s are really comfortable with their clients taking true 200 meter shots with scoped rifles (I say “true” because a lot of 100-150 yard shots become 200 - 250 yard shots by crossing the Atlantic - rather like all those 38” buffalo becoming 40’s upon hitting Atlanta).

But look. It’s your safari. I think such a hunt with such a classic firearm is a worthy goal. I would urge you to get with a PH who understands the demands of using open sights and is eager for the challenge. Let him guide you into making the most of such an opportunity. I would urge you to pick an area where encounters are plentiful and the terrain conducive to a close approach.

38" becoming 40"....now you've quit preaching and gone to meddling.