M70 Classic Super Express, 458 Winchester

[Shootist43]

Idmay375, just looked at Reloading International's inventory. They have some 458(s) in stock

 

[ldmay375]

Idmay375, just looked at Reloading International's inventory. They have some 458(s) in stock

I still do not see the actual .458 NorthFork on their site. I called, and he is elk hunting, hope he is successful.
I don’t unless it is the links to their site. But have ordered other bullets and brass from them.

 

[ldmay375]

Idmay375, just looked at Reloading International's inventory. They have some 458(s) in stock

I went through their facebook page link, I found the listing. But the 400 grain are out of stock

 

[ldmay375]

I have some 400 grain A-Frames and 450 grain TSX on hand. I will keep a watch on their site.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I have some 400 grain A-Frames and 450 grain TSX on hand. I will keep a watch on their site.

I like reloading and shooting the 450gr TSX and 350gr Speer Hot Cor (which I can't find anywhere now) in moderate loads for practice with mine. They both shoot real well at 50yds with open sights.

 

[ldmay375]

I like reloading and shooting the 450gr TSX and 350gr Speer Hot Cor (which I can't find anywhere now) in moderate loads for practice with mine. They both shoot real well at 50yds with open sights.

Yep, reloading components are hit and miss. The big bores are more miss in my area.
But, I have a healthy supply of bullets and brass up to .458. But years of gradual purchase.
My rekindled interest in 308 and 30-06 was an eye-opener. Regarding dies, brass, and bullets; that took literally months of searching. Same with common 30-30 and not so common 375 Winchester.
458 Winchester, ordered a bunch of brass years ago when I had an issue with their seasonal runs. The 458 Lott, I was able to get sufficient supply prior the election inspired shortage.

 

[TOBY458]

Cutting Edge Bullets seem to keep most 458 stuff in stock. I've ordered a few things from them lately and they have been good to deal with.

 

[ldmay375]

I

Cutting Edge Bullets seem to keep most 458 stuff in stock. I've ordered a few things from them lately and they have been good to deal with.

I know several are very pleased with their performance. I just have not been curious enough to try them. Michael458’s hippo experience is quite a testament for them.

 

[TOBY458]

I

I know several are very pleased with their performance. I just have not been curious enough to try them. Michael458’s hippo experience is quite a testament for them.

Yes, his adventures do verify great performance of the heavier bullets. But the lighter bullets seem to really add to the versatility of any 458. Take a look at the 370gr LG Raptors and 400 gr LG Solids. Along with the 258gr Socom Raptors. Makes a 458 do about anything you'd want any rifle to do within reason. I'm in the process of testing some of these myself. I'm very interested in seeing what they do on game such as hogs, ect.

 

[michael458]

I was very excited to see Idmay458s Winchester to be honest.... You don't see many of those guns.

Brought back lots of memories of my gun. We as shooters/hunters go through life and our adventures in the field and along the way there are some firearms that seem to be magical to us and win a place in our hearts as trusted companions......... I guess you would call it "Ole Betsy" syndrome or some such.... that sounds as good as anything I reckon.........

This was one of those guns for me....... and I have been fortunate, I have a few other rifles that fit that category as well........... But not all can make it to that sort of fame..........

I don't even have any photos of that rifle itself before changing the stock, other than the hunting photos from 21 years ago.......

I did find the Lion floor plate Leslie did for me however........ I believe you might get a kick out of this one, you know I mentioned the Big Five Series guns from the Custom Shop.... They did 125 guns each year for 5 years. I Was in on two sets of serial numbers....... There was one in 338 Winchester that was the Leopard gun, one in 416 Remington Buffalo, 458 Winchester Elephant, the last one was a big surprise to everyone, we all figured for sure it would be 458 Lott and Rhino, but they did 470 Capstick for the Rhino (a whole other story with over size barrels not .474 but .477, and none of them would retain rounds in the magazine, but that for another day)........... And, the point of this story is that one was 375 HH for the LION..... Guess which one I did not take possession of or even own? You got it, I refused the 375....... But damn it had the lion on it.... HEH HEH........... Fortunately I had ties with Leslie and she did one for my coveted 458 Winchester 22 inch gun, which I had taken three lions with......

 

[michael458]

But the lighter bullets seem to really add to the versatility of any 458.

Absolutely, like never before........... 20 years ago, if you would have told me that a 250 gr bullet (250 Socom) could do all that it can do, and has done, I would have told you that "You are full of IT" Today, not so. Short story... Yeah Right! I believe it was 2013.... I had Dan make a 250 #13 Lever Raptor, seat deep, add Talon Tip for bolt guns...... We had been doing the 295 Lever Raptor this way for a few years with great success in the field, I wanted faster and lighter based on the success of the 295s.....So we did just that...... I was a couple of weeks out from heading to Africa to do the test work with 18 inch 458 B&M, running the 250s close to or just above 2900 fps. Test work looked great, plenty of penetration for large plains game, and that was the intended target species. Dan had developed the 250 Socom, primary for the 458 Socom, but wanted me to add it to my inventory for testing. He sent, I loaded, did a quick test, and the 250 Socom did a lot of damage, and penetrated 1 inch more than the 250 Lever Raptor in the test medium........I did not pay much attention to that extra inch of penetration........

Africa, numerous zebra, wildebeest, oryx and so forth.......... Both bullets everything, and I mean everything was DRT... That is saying something with zebra........ On a very few, where there were more angled shots, I even recovered a few 250 Lever bases........ The 250 Socom, there were no recoveries. All penetrated completely, regardless of angle.....Hmmmm.... Maybe that extra inch in the test medium actually did mean something?............ People, I have recovered 458 caliber 400 gr Swift A Frames on broadside shots of zebras! And now, a 250 is giving full penetration............. Hmmm..... I see. Trauma inflicted was something you had to see first hand to believe.

I have to date recovered two bases from the 250 Socom, one was a buffalo broadside shot, base recovered on far side...... you are not supposed to shoot buffalo with a 250 gr .458 caliber bullet, don't do that at home. The other was a brain shot hippo at 17 yards, on the ground, I had no choice in bullet, that was in the gun at the moment. Bullet was recovered just behind the skull. This after squirting brain matter out both sides ear holes 6 ft in both directions, literally. No, you are not supposed to shoot hippo with 250 gr 458 caliber bullets, don't do this.

I have a good friend who lives in TN. He has a 18 inch 458 B&M as well. He is a very good shooter, and hunter. He was shooting 3 inch groups at 400 yards with the 250 Socom in his rifle, consistently I might add........ Later he took this to Alaska, shot the biggest bull moose ever shot in the world at 300 yards, DRT on the first shot, second shot for insurance , both bullets exited......

Add versatility to your 458? Damn Right it does.............

My friend with his Impala and my Daughter Mercedes....... Taken 458 B&M 250 Socom........

After the big plains game shoot, we went to Zimbabwe and I used the very same 458 B&M on this, with my Wife......And this particular rifle did not even have to change or adjust the sights..... It shot both 250 Socom, 420 Raptors, and 450 Solids to within an inch at 50 yards.........

458 Is pretty damn spiffy..................

 

[michael458]

North Fork...........??????

I bet NONE OF YOU have any of these...........................Pay attention the band configuration as well..

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I'd add I've put a few animals down using the 258gr SOCOM in my .458B&M. This includes at the least a gemsbok, blue wildebeest and a lioness.

The lioness was laying down with her head up and exposing her the top end of her chest. I took this frontal shot and her head just dropped, dead as a door nail. Jacques @JKO HUNTING SAFARIS said the only thing else that moved was a twitch of her tail.

The gemsbok that I shot was probably 150 yards out. The shot presented was a perfect broadside, bullet hit square in the middle of the right shoulder and exited the left. The bull just dropped in it's tracks. It tried to get back up, but never regained it's feet and expired quickly.

In both of these examples, the amount of blood and obvious trauma to the animal was something that you just had to see to fully appreciate. These bullets are just devastating.

 

[ldmay375]

I think, I mentioned earlier this particular new-to-me 458 Winchester fed the factory loaded Hornady 500 grain DGX smoothly.

I also checked some other factory loads, that I have on hand. All fed smoothly.

Left to Right:
Federal 400 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw.
Remington Safari Grade 450 grain A-Frame
Hornady 500 grain DGX Bonded

 

[thriller]

I think, I mentioned earlier this particular new-to-me 458 Winchester fed the factory loaded Hornady 500 grain DGX smoothly.

I also checked some other factory loads, that I have on hand. All fed smoothly.

Left to Right:
Federal 400 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw.
Remington Safari Grade 450 grain A-Frame
Hornady 500 grain DGX Bonded

View attachment 427715

its only the ones with completely flat fronts (like the trophy bonded sledgehammer solid) that i have ever had issues feeding in min and then its only the first round out of the magazine when its full. however the norma solids feed fine

 

[ldmay375]

I agree the flat point solids can be the most troublesome to feed.

 

[TOBY458]

I agree the flat point solids can be the most troublesome to feed.

Both my Winchester 70s (416 & 458), both of my Kimbers (375 & 458), and my Sako Kodiak 375 will all feed the CEB flat point solids. I think the nose profile needs to be correct in order for the flat point solids to be reliable.

 

[michael458]

The Cutting Edge #13 Solids and the North Fork Solids most of the design features we done by shooters/hunters, here, with myself in lead, working with both Dan from CEB and John from North Fork.

Being a shooter, it is no use to have a bullet that will not feed in a properly designed, quality rifle. Being a Winchester M70 fan myself, this was the rifle action used to measure the bullets by, when it came to feed/function.

#1 on that list was Proper Bullet Design....... From the test work, we knew that 65% meplat of caliber was required to Stabilize the Bullet during terminal penetration of aqueous material, which obviously includes animal tissue, and the purpose of the bullet to begin with.

#2 Doing meplat size tests, we knew that once you went beyond 70% meplat size, then your depth of penetration started to Decrease. Straight line penetration of course was not effected, but Depth of Penetration became less at every step above 70% meplat.

#3 Additional Bullet design factors, that was conducive to both Terminal Performance, and feed/function is the Radius Edge of the bullets. A Sharp edge tended to loose stability at the very end of penetration, effecting just the last 2-3% of total depth, but none the less a Factor. By rounding off, or giving the edge a Radius, this solved that last 2-3% of instability, and the bullets would be 100% Dead Straight. This also just happened to be a Plus in feed/function, that should be obvious and need no further explanation.

#4 Just how big could we go in Meplat Size, meet proper bullet design specs and Factors, and feed properly in all Winchester M70 Control Feed Guns........ Long story short...... We learned that once you hit 70% Meplat, the Winchesters would not feed 100%. In the End, North Fork went with 68% Meplat of Caliber, and CEB went with 67% Meplat of Caliber........ Both feed/function 100% in common factory Winchester M70 Control Feed Guns.

I cannot tell you about other bullets, their designs or what have you. What I do know is that Ruger and many CZ will not feed 67-68% Meplats. Hornady designed the DGS to feed in most Ruger guns, and Barnes betrayed shooters by trying to go back to RN design to feed in CZ's. I believe in 2004-2005 Barnes was touting their FN Solids as the best thing since sliced bread. And they were right at the time, the FN Barnes was great, had a 65% Meplat, good nose profile, had most everything, I even designed some of my early .500 caliber solids after this and they were fantastic. I used the .458 Barnes FN on many occasions buffalo and hippo. But then some genius at Barnes got some complaints about the bullets not feeding in some guns...... Now all the sudden, the RN design really was good, and never anything really wrong with it......... and Blah Blah, got some writers to go along and repeat it, which at one time I took to task over it...........Anyway, not sure where that is now, nor do I care...........

Currently today, I have over 35 Winchester M70 Control Feed rifles, from .416 caliber to .500 caliber and every single one of them will feed 67% to 68% Meplat of Caliber bullets. None of them have any stoppages due to feed issues. None of them have been modified in any way to fix, or manipulate feeding these bullets. In addition to that, I have never ever seen a Winchester M70 Control feed gun have specially any issue at all in FEEDING these bullets.

There are other issues with Winchester big bores, in the magazines and springs with retaining and such matters, especially when converting from one caliber/cartridge to another. But there are no Feed Specific issues with any of them, as long as you stay below the 70% Meplat of caliber threshold.

I took the stand then and I take it now, if you have a gun, that does not feed/function with these bullets or any other bullet that is properly designed for the mission you ask of it, Fix the Damn gun so it will feed/Function, do not lesson your standards so a sub'-par gun will function. Remember this, "The Bullet does all The Heavy Lifting", it does not matter if you have a $50'000 Rifle, or a $1000 Rifle, the "Bullet" is what makes you successful, or Not..........