LOP for Rapid Bolt Operation

[xausa]

This was on my first African hunt, in 1971 in Kenya. We were hunting on a huge ranch managed by the PH's brother-in-law. The ranch was surrounded with an 8' chain link fence, to keep predators out. Somehow a pack of Cape hunting dogs had made it past the fence and as we were driving down a dirt road, the PH spotted them in an adjacent field. He asked me if I would mind shooting a few, since the posed a threat to the cattle and sheep, especially the calves and lambs. I of course volunteered and took my Model 70 Winchester (pre-War) in .300 H&H and walked toward the dogs, which more or less ignored me, instead concentrating on the freshly killed impala they were tearing to pieces.

I fired my first shot at a stationary target and the remaining four at the frantically moving dogs, hitting four in all. This called for some rapid bolt manipulation, and my trusty Model 70 functioned flawlessly. I only missed one dog that I shot at.

 

[Dewald]

All this makes sense. What most of you are saying is that there is no need to do rapid bolt gun firing. This means I don't have to change decades of how I have been operating a bolt rifle. I shoot, cycle the bolt as I lower the rifle while keeping my eyes on the target, and then immediately bring up the rifle with the target back in the scope.

I can easily practice that without having to shorten the pull on either the M-70 416 Rem or CZ 458 Lott.

Thanks!

Nothing wrong with lowering the rifle if you are used to doing it that way. I wouldn’t change the length of pull. Your first shot is what counts the most, keep your rifle stock with the correct LOP to do that over sticks and you are good to go

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Nevada Mike is spot on. I also shoot a lot of trap, skeet, and clays. I discovered long ago that my skeet and clays scores improved dramatically when I started shooting low gun from safe carry position. I can see the targets more quickly and the gun is up, on target, and fire all in one smooth continuous motion. In fact, the other day I figured out I was missing targets on two clays stations because I was anticipating and getting on the gun too early.

My first trip to Africa I shot this gemsbuck incoming (charging?) at less than 20 yards in the heart and then once more as it ran by me at twelve yards, again through the heart. I always lower a bolt action when reloading. For one thing, it's safer.

I shoot a WWII Springfield 30-06. LOP is just over 14". The gun fits me perfectly and that is the key to quick shooting. Absolutely! My old A5 shotgun wearing black plastic is also a perfect fit. Sometimes I'll take my fancy Citori to the range. It's only good for trap high gun because the fit is not perfect (thicker comb and slightly different LOP). For trap I can make myself fit any gun ... but no follow up shots in that game. I shot this pheasant triple last fall - 3 birds in three shots simultaneously. Only time in my life (rare to have an empty bag AND find three roosters in the same spot). The gun was actually down and just starting to reload when the last rooster got up late. Dropped the shell and my glove and shot it. Never did find the glove.

Unless you are a short person, 13" LOP will be way too short, ESPECIALLY if shooting big bore or magnum rifles. Scope will get you. For quick firing iron sights you'll find yourself shooting "up the barrel" and high. Close your eyes and mount the gun. The first time, either scope or iron sights should come into view and line up perfectly when you open your eye. Some may advise practicing till it does come into view perfectly. WRONG! Don't try to make yourself fit the gun ... because it doesn't work in the heat of fast firing, ESPECIALLY at moving targets.

Long story short, make your guns fit you and don't worry about trying to work them from your shoulder.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

So you don't worry about keeping the sight picture?

Personally, I have never worried about keeping the sight picture after the shot, especially after shooting a buffalo. The calibers required for that generate enough recoil that you will not keep the sight picture anyway. While keeping my eyes on the game, I lower the butt A little and work the bolt while the the muzzle rises in recoil. Everything just snaps back into position for the follow up shot. If any time is lost, I've never seen it.

 

[DB404]

Lots of variables to consider, from are you strong enough to keep the rifle comfortably at the shoulder with your non dominant arm while you rapidly work the bolt to whether or not the rifle fits you well enough.

If you really want to learn it, make some dummy rounds (not just snap caps) and practice, practice, practice in the basement or living room. Make your non-dominant hand really grab the forend and control the rifle. You won’t feel confident until you get that part down. Get a grip exerciser and increase your grip strength in both hands. Once you start making progress, go to the range and load 2 rounds, one up, one down. If you have a timer, great. When it beeps fire your first round, keep the rifle on the shoulder and work the bolt as fast as you can (which should be the same speed as you’ve been practicing). Do it a few times, take note of glitches, if any, and keep practicing. You’ll get there. Just takes determination and work.

Way back in the day, I wanted to get on first base a bit faster so taught myself to bat left handed by practicing a lot over a couple of months. I stopped practicing when I was able to get a single or double fairly often. Anyone can do it.

I just finished reading Karamojo Safari and Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter by Bell. In one of them he talks about how he was so fast - he stated he used his left hand to push the rifle straight forward while pulling the bolt smartly to the rear, then as he closed the bolt, his left hand would be pulling the rifle tightly into his shoulder. He also cautioned about short stroking the magnum length Mauser. But it’s important to remember his only backup was a native with a spear.

Oh, my 2 bits - if you’re wedded to the shooting sticks, the movement required to lift the forend up out of them is not conducive to keeping the rifle at your shoulder during reloading. It helps to have the sticks tall enough so that you can stand erect. Skootching over the sticks is awkward at best.

Good luck!
Dave

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Lots of variables to consider, from are you strong enough to keep the rifle comfortably at the shoulder with your non dominant arm while you rapidly work the bolt to whether or not the rifle fits you well enough.

If you really want to learn it, make some dummy rounds (not just snap caps) and practice, practice, practice in the basement or living room. Make your non-dominant hand really grab the forend and control the rifle. You won’t feel confident until you get that part down. Get a grip exerciser and increase your grip strength in both hands. Once you start making progress, go to the range and load 2 rounds, one up, one down. If you have a timer, great. When it beeps fire your first round, keep the rifle on the shoulder and work the bolt as fast as you can (which should be the same speed as you’ve been practicing). Do it a few times, take note of glitches, if any, and keep practicing. You’ll get there. Just takes determination and work.

Way back in the day, I wanted to get on first base a bit faster so taught myself to bat left handed by practicing a lot over a couple of months. I stopped practicing when I was able to get a single or double fairly often. Anyone can do it.

I just finished reading Karamojo Safari and Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter by Bell. In one of them he talks about how he was so fast - he stated he used his left hand to push the rifle straight forward while pulling the bolt smartly to the rear, then as he closed the bolt, his left hand would be pulling the rifle tightly into his shoulder. He also cautioned about short stroking the magnum length Mauser. But it’s important to remember his only backup was a native with a spear.

Oh, my 2 bits - if you’re wedded to the shooting sticks, the movement required to lift the forend up out of them is not conducive to keeping the rifle at your shoulder during reloading. It helps to have the sticks tall enough so that you can stand erect. Skootching over the sticks is awkward at best.

Good luck!
Dave

Dave is correct. If the sticks aren't set up properly, they are almost a detriment. I have come to dispise quad sticks but that's another thread. One should also unsnap the sling and give it to tracker during final stalk. Slings can get fouled up in the sticks. Been there!

 

[cajunchefray]

I am an average size guy and have 33" sleeves. My 404J has a 14-1/2" LOP. It is a magnum M98 action. It fits and comes up perfectly when I mount to fire - sticks or straight offhand. The slightly longer LOP keeps the scope at the proper distance from my face (eyebrow).

I have never been comfortable cycling any bolt gun while it is in position on my shoulder. By lowering the gun I get the rifle out of my face so I can see my target clearly and with the gun lower I get better leverage to work the action. Recovery from recoil happens as I lower the gun. I shoot a lot of shotgun targets and remounting the gun takes about 1/4 of a second. BANG takes about one second. Works for me.

Very interesting discussion on a topic that I have struggled with.
Other posters mention LOP, the type of action, and the physics of maintaing the shoulder position with the weak hand.

My findings, based on just a few rifles (M70, Whitworth Mauser and CZ 550 magnum action) come down to a few key factors:

--The geometric relationship of the particular rifle, bolt length and my physique. I'm of slight build, have slightly long arms (34" sleeve) and thought I should be able to properly work the bolt from the shoulder. It depends.

--The rifle itself: I can work a M70 375 H&H (Alaskan model, light weight) from my shoulder as the action just seems easier to cycle and have leverage on the bolt.

- A Whitworth .375 H&H - No Good. I will either short stroke, or just not have enough leverage to get a clean ejection of the empty, from the shoulder. If I drop the rifle to low ready, I seem to have much more leverage to eject the empty.

- Whitworth .458 Win Mag, I can cycle the bolt from the shoulder with dummy rounds, but shooting, the recoil has a slight, brief numbing effect, and I am slow to cycle from the shoulder. Better to lower the rifle, reload, and remount. Plus that movement seems to "loosen up my shoulder for the next shot.

- CZ 550 in .416 Rigby and .500 Jeffery. Definitely have to lower the rifle, work the bolt and remount.

Really interesting thread and I appreciate all the insights and experiences shared. Good stuff!

Based on this advice, I will just practice lowering the rifle, working the bolt on the way down, and smoothly remounting for the next shot.

 

[tward1604]

I am an average size guy and have 33" sleeves. My 404J has a 14-1/2" LOP. It is a magnum M98 action. It fits and comes up perfectly when I mount to fire - sticks or straight offhand. The slightly longer LOP keeps the scope at the proper distance from my face (eyebrow).

I have never been comfortable cycling any bolt gun while it is in position on my shoulder. By lowering the gun I get the rifle out of my face so I can see my target clearly and with the gun lower I get better leverage to work the action. Recovery from recoil happens as I lower the gun. I shoot a lot of shotgun targets and remounting the gun takes about 1/4 of a second. BANG takes about one second. Works for me.

We have very similar rifles except I am only 5'5". My 404 has a 14" LOP. Shorter is not the way here. There is a ton of great information here. I'll echo do what works best for you. Personally for me my rifle stays up and I can work the bolt just fine.

The bigger issue I run in to is focusing on working the bolt quickly instead if making the shots count when I really try and get moving.