Looking for more reach then my .375 ..options?

[62flint]

350-400 yards with good energy to put down a moose

This thread’s gotten a bit sidetracked, but here’s my two cents for the OP:


If that’s all you’re looking to do and you already have a .375 H&H, I’d just work up a snappy 225–250 grain load and pair it with a scope you can dial. Something in the 10–12x top-end magnification range should serve you well.


I have no issues shooting my .375 H&H out to 300 yards, provided I have time to range and dial. If I’m pressed for time, I’ll just hold over. I’ve never hunted moose myself, but from what I’ve gathered online, they’re not exactly made of stone. Plenty of folks seem to take them cleanly with the old 6.5 Swede. That said, I’d personally want a bit more horsepower.


Long-range big bores are a rabbit hole—lots of cartridges .375 and up designed for shooting well past 1,000 yards. Personally, 500 yards is my limit on big game. Too many variables: time of flight, animal movement, wind, etc.


That said, 400 yards is absolutely doable if you’ve got the skill, favorable conditions, and a solid rest.


The .338 Win Mag is an excellent choice, along with several of the Weatherby options mentioned. But a lot of the newer long-range hunting rifles are, in my opinion, starting to look like heavy, tacticool target guns—clunky and less practical for actual hunting.


Bottom line:

• If you want a new rifle, go .338 WM or a Weatherby.
• If you want to use what you have, work up a solid 250-grain load for your .375 H&H, get a good rangefinder and a dial-capable scope, and go kill Bullwinkle.

If I ever get a chance to go moose hunting, I’ll be taking either my .375 H&H or my .300 Win Mag.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

in war, wounding is considered better. then it takes a couple or 3 guys out of action to move the wounded soldier, then a medi-vac of some sort (more people and resources) doctors and nurses to care for that one wounded individual. better in the big picture.

Yeah, this was the thinking when US military adopted .223 M16. Funny thing about wounded soldiers: sometimes getting hit pisses them off and they shoot back. I know if some SOB gut shot me, I'd do my best to make sure I took him out with me. Dead soldiers = dead guns.

 

[colorado]

@khesser,

i have LOTS of brown bear clients that come up here from the lower 48 that are very comfortable with their shooting ability. and, maybe even have rifles that deliver more energy at 250 yards than mine does at the muzzle. however, when the shooting starts, their "expertise/comfort" disappears quickly when a poor shot is made. (and they do make poor shots)

i do a little show and tell to the 4 clients that are newly on the boat we hunt brown bears off of. it goes like this:

i hold up a hunting magazine that at least 2 of them have brought onto the boat. I ask, "who could hit this magazine with their rifle at 100 yards?" they all confidently nod and confirm they could. then i ask, "who could hit it a 200 yards?" there is ALWAYS a pause, and then most of them nod that yes they think they could hit that as well. then i slap the magazine (you know 8.8"x11") to my chest, growl, spin in place a couple of times and take off in a direction that i happen to be pointing in when i stop spinning. then i ask, "how many of you could hit that magazine at 200+ yards, AND realize a bear moves about 5-7 times faster than i do." NOBODY ever says anything.

that's because hitting a sitting still animal at long range and hitting a spinning/running animal at long range are waaaay different. it is much easier to put shots on target at 50 yards than 250+. the bullet hits harder, (more energy) goes deeper and does more damage. AND, beyond 300 yards is just stupid and irresponsible.

we had a hunter that insisted on shooting at a very large bear, 10 footer at a ranged 300 yards. he had 2 guides with him as backup, was not sure they could get closer, so at the hunters absolute insistence they allowed him to shoot since 300 yards was "not a big deal, i can make this shot" for him. he hit the bear, and it took off. every one emptied their guns, the bear got away, wounded to some degree, was followed for 3/4 mile when blood ran out and it got away. that hunter was done hunting, he had cut his tag on that wounded bear. (the hunter and the guides all felt sick to their stomaches about how it turned out) now afterward, i think that he learned something but that is a very expensive lesson, and the hunters that think they can shoot long range at dangerous game are simply not thinking "what happens next?"

dangerous game should never be shot at long range, and for my hunting group, over 200 yards at a brown bear (yes, the arbitrary 200 yard distance) is long range, unless it was previously wounded, getting away and was over 200 yards.

so, if you can make solid hits at 9x11" targets spinning and moving at 35 mph (yep they run that fast) good on ya but you will be alone because i can't. your guide can't, and i have yet to meet the guy that can.

those real long range shots 500+ yards, it takes about 5 minutes to set up just to hit (maybe) that animal. then they are going to calculate and hit it running and changing range and speed at that range or beyond? hmmmm.

my 2 cents.

I got my brown bear at 13 yards on a spot and stalk. We both surprised each other Very exciting.

 

[Russ16]

@khesser,

i have LOTS of brown bear clients that come up here from the lower 48 that are very comfortable with their shooting ability. and, maybe even have rifles that deliver more energy at 250 yards than mine does at the muzzle. however, when the shooting starts, their "expertise/comfort" disappears quickly when a poor shot is made. (and they do make poor shots)

i do a little show and tell to the 4 clients that are newly on the boat we hunt brown bears off of. it goes like this:

i hold up a hunting magazine that at least 2 of them have brought onto the boat. I ask, "who could hit this magazine with their rifle at 100 yards?" they all confidently nod and confirm they could. then i ask, "who could hit it a 200 yards?" there is ALWAYS a pause, and then most of them nod that yes they think they could hit that as well. then i slap the magazine (you know 8.8"x11") to my chest, growl, spin in place a couple of times and take off in a direction that i happen to be pointing in when i stop spinning. then i ask, "how many of you could hit that magazine at 200+ yards, AND realize a bear moves about 5-7 times faster than i do." NOBODY ever says anything.

that's because hitting a sitting still animal at long range and hitting a spinning/running animal at long range are waaaay different. it is much easier to put shots on target at 50 yards than 250+. the bullet hits harder, (more energy) goes deeper and does more damage. AND, beyond 300 yards is just stupid and irresponsible.

we had a hunter that insisted on shooting at a very large bear, 10 footer at a ranged 300 yards. he had 2 guides with him as backup, was not sure they could get closer, so at the hunters absolute insistence they allowed him to shoot since 300 yards was "not a big deal, i can make this shot" for him. he hit the bear, and it took off. every one emptied their guns, the bear got away, wounded to some degree, was followed for 3/4 mile when blood ran out and it got away. that hunter was done hunting, he had cut his tag on that wounded bear. (the hunter and the guides all felt sick to their stomaches about how it turned out) now afterward, i think that he learned something but that is a very expensive lesson, and the hunters that think they can shoot long range at dangerous game are simply not thinking "what happens next?"

dangerous game should never be shot at long range, and for my hunting group, over 200 yards at a brown bear (yes, the arbitrary 200 yard distance) is long range, unless it was previously wounded, getting away and was over 200 yards.

so, if you can make solid hits at 9x11" targets spinning and moving at 35 mph (yep they run that fast) good on ya but you will be alone because i can't. your guide can't, and i have yet to meet the guy that can.

those real long range shots 500+ yards, it takes about 5 minutes to set up just to hit (maybe) that animal. then they are going to calculate and hit it running and changing range and speed at that range or beyond? hmmmm.

my 2 cents.

I extend your story beyond dangerous game. I would feel 99% as bad if is hit and elk or moose at that range and it ran off. The 1% difference is because the bear might run into another person.

Long range shooting at game has never interested me. The consequences are too great. Ironically the bigger the animal—and thus the target—the closer I feel I need to get. Just more chance to wound vs outright miss. And I hate losing game.

I bird hunt a lot and shoot a lot of sporting clays. I’m a better shot than most of the people I duck and pheasant hunt with. But I pass up shots they will take all the time. I hate wounding birds I’ll wait for a closer shot.

 

[Raven]

I got my brown bear at 13 yards on a spot and stalk. We both surprised each other Very exciting.

The closer, the more interesting. This is a real hunt. With adrenaline and a fair amount of risk.

I have never shot a bear at a long distance, when I could miss or easily wound it and then not catch up.

But the thing is that some hunters are afraid of the bear. They want to kill it, but they are afraid to approach it. It seems to them that at close range it can attack, even if it is mortally wounded (and this is true), and if they shoot from afar, then nothing will threaten them. They are even ready to lose a trophy worth a lot of money, just not to come face to face with a bear.

I feel sorry for such people. They do not understand the meaning of hunting, its appeal. It is like drinking alcohol and not getting drunk.

 

[Scott CWO]

I was wrong, he suggests limiting shots to 250 yards.

Boddington comes from a hunter’s perspective who has hunted brown bears just a handful of times. I fail to see his relevance or expertise.

 

[meigsbucks]

Ream it out to 375 weatherby. You can still use H&H ammo if needed.

I added a barrel chambered in .375 Wby for my Blaser R8. Getting 2770 fps with a 300gr Barnes TSX. Haven’t yet played with lighter bullets.

 

[sgt_zim]

Yeah, this was the thinking when US military adopted .223 M16. Funny thing about wounded soldiers: sometimes getting hit pisses them off and they shoot back. I know if some SOB gut shot me, I'd do my best to make sure I took him out with me. Dead soldiers = dead guns.

I won't speak for him, but for myself, I was thinking more along the lines of a 7.62x51 or 338 LM, fired from something like an M24 or M24A3. A wound from one of those is often vastly different than one from a 5.56.

 

[sgt_zim]

in war, wounding is considered better. then it takes a couple or 3 guys out of action to move the wounded soldier, then a medi-vac of some sort (more people and resources) doctors and nurses to care for that one wounded individual. better in the big picture.

I should've also added "the ethics of a non-fatal wound in war are vastly different than the ethics of wounding a wild animal, especially a wild animal which is fully capable and willing to kill you (and your PH/guide) as a return favor." Risking my PH's life because I believe I'm Carlos Hathcock reincarnated is, IMO, pure brazenness.

I have no reservation taking a 400 yard shot on an elk with my 280 AI under normal alpine conditions (windy) where elk are found; or 500 yards on that rare occasion when I see no evidence of wind. But an elk isn't a brown bear, waiting for my guide and me in some dark alder thicket.

I pay you guys to hunt, not to unnecessarily expose you to mortal danger. We all know the risks, but hunting ethics require I give consideration to your health as well as my own. A long shot on an animal bristling with fangs and claws is an unnecessary risk. If I don't fill my tag, well, that's why we call it "hunting," not killing. I hunt for the adventure of it. If part of the adventure is filling my tag, that's fantastic. If I don't, well, I've still had an adventure, just without the conclusion I'd hoped for.

 

[Beck]

Boddington comes from a hunter’s perspective who has hunted brown bears just a handful of times. I fail to see his relevance or expertise.

Well Boddington in his own words would always say "listen to your Ph", words to live by in my opinion. You seem awfully defensive. I don't always agree with Boddington, but given that he has hunted a wider diversity of game than 99.9% of hunters I think his opinions are often valid. Oh, and basically every hunting publication on the planet agrees with me.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Well Boddington in his own words would always say "listen to your Ph", words to live by in my opinion. You seem awfully defensive. I don't always agree with Boddington, but given that he has hunted a wider diversity of game than 99.9% of hunters I think his opinions are often valid. Oh, and basically every hunting publication on the planet agrees with me.

Remember, Boddington is in the hunting business which requires selling himself and his sponsors' products. Personally, I tend to place more value on some amateur who posts reports and advice on forums. He has no financial motive to distort his perspective.

Brings to mind a certain well known outdoors writer who emailed me about an episode that occurred several years ago at SHOT Show. During the show his editors required that he post daily reports on the website. He was given a new model shotgun from a well known manufacturer (whose name is literally synonymous with guns) to test. It was, and still is, a piece of crap. He didn't say that directly but after describing all the faults with the design, anyone could draw the conclusion. Well, the next day he gets called into an executive suite at the convention and confronted by a livid company rep and an editor on conference call. He was told to say something good about the POS or find another job! Now, how do you do something like that? "Sorry folks, I forgot to mention yesterday that this gun has a spectacular bead on the end of the barrel." Like that will make up for a shotgun that won't cycle reliably? Such phony backtracking will do wonders for a writer's credibility!

The outdoors influencer/writer/vendor business is way beyond overextended. And some of them (most of them?) will do or say anything to hang on. These days personal integrity in business in general is a thing of the past. In this business it's all but extinct. The herd needs to be managed better.

 

[colorado]

The closer, the more interesting. This is a real hunt. With adrenaline and a fair amount of risk.

I have never shot a bear at a long distance, when I could miss or easily wound it and then not catch up.

But the thing is that some hunters are afraid of the bear. They want to kill it, but they are afraid to approach it. It seems to them that at close range it can attack, even if it is mortally wounded (and this is true), and if they shoot from afar, then nothing will threaten them. They are even ready to lose a trophy worth a lot of money, just not to come face to face with a bear.

I feel sorry for such people. They do not understand the meaning of hunting, its appeal. It is like drinking alcohol and not getting drunk.

Well said. But if you're not a little afraid and your'e not a little too close, what's the fun in that?

 

[sgt_zim]

You’re the one talking about that you would shoot a lion at 250 yards. Luckily, there’s probably not a trained PH in Africa that would allow it and you’re not allowed to hunt lion on your own. Now we know why laws are put in place.

I have guided bow hunters with the agreement that I will shoot the bear if it goes wrong.

I think we have all seen animals die very quickly from a well placed arrow or bullet. Many of us have also seen animals defy logic and take long enough to die that could have or did injure someone. You’ve got to draw the line somewhere. For me with brown bears, it’s 200 yards but that’s still no guarantee of anything.

It isn't about downrange energy. Lots of cartridges are capable of delivering a lot of it at 300 or 400 yards. It's about the probability of a meaningful error creeping in.

A 3 MoA error (for whatever reason) at 50 yards is 1.5" off POA - that isn't a meaningful error because that's still in the wheelhouse. A 3 MoA error at 250 yards is 7.5", more than enough to be outside the vital zone.

I don't doubt you're a superlative shooter. What I do doubt is anyone's ability to be perfect every single time under hunting conditions at those distances, where an error will cost you a $25K bear hunt, and potentially your or your guide's life.

At the range, I can stack bullets with my 6.5x55 Swede all day long. I used to do a lot of 1000 yard shooting with my 308 Win. I've popped running hogs in the grape with my 45-70 from 60 or 70 yards. Last year on safari, I completely missed a 150 yard shot on a blesbok with that same tack-driving 6.5 Swede. I've been over that shot in my mind dozens of times, I still don't know what I did wrong. Just 5 minutes later, I got the same 150-ish yard shot on the same ram, and he dropped immediately.

On the same safari, I was hunting cape buffalo. My PH and I crept to within about 30 or 40 yards of a barren cow - perfectly broadside facing left. Just as I squeezed the trigger, she made a turn to the right, facing away, and it ended up being a raking shot that struck just in front of the rumen. If that had been a 70 yard shot, it probably would have hit the rumen; and then we'd have had a long day or 2 of tracking, I expect.

It can happen to any of us.

 

[buffybr]

About 15 years ago I built my .375 RUM for a Cape Buffalo hunt. I took it to Africa twice, and shot a variety of animals with it from Steenbok to Buffalo and Eland.

Our range only has target berms out to 430 yards. I practice with other rifles almost every week at steel out to 430 yards, and before going on hunts I shoot paper at that range with the rifle that I will be hunting with. On one of my South African hunts, we just couldn't get any closer, and I made a one shot kill on a gemsbok at 351 yards with my .375 RUM. That was one of the longest shots that I have taken at game in over 50 years of hunting.

Well Boddington in his own words would always say "listen to your Ph"

When I built my .300 Wby back in 2010, my first hunt with it was for Aoudad in West texas. My guide told me that Aoudad were hard to kill, and to shoot him in the hind quarters. The 168 gr Barnes TSX bullet that I shot just behind his shoulder killed him instantly. My guide then said "You don't listen to your guide, do you?" I simply replied "Not always."

 

[ftrovato]

About 15 years ago I built my .375 RUM for a Cape Buffalo hunt. I took it to Africa twice, and shot a variety of animals with it from Steenbok to Buffalo and Eland.

Our range only has target berms out to 430 yards. I practice with other rifles almost every week at steel out to 430 yards, and before going on hunts I shoot paper at that range with the rifle that I will be hunting with. On one of my South African hunts, we just couldn't get any closer, and I made a one shot kill on a gemsbok at 351 yards with my .375 RUM. That was one of the longest shots that I have taken at game in over 50 years of hunting.


When I built my .300 Wby back in 2010, my first hunt with it was for Aoudad in West texas. My guide told me that Aoudad were hard to kill, and to shoot him in the hind quarters. The 168 gr Barnes TSX bullet that I shot just behind his shoulder killed him instantly. My guide then said "You don't listen to your guide, do you?" I simply replied "Not always."

I have never heard of anyone even suggesting a first shot anywhere other than the boiler room when it is exposed. And when not 'No Shot'.

Can you explain how the hindquarters shot was even on the table?

Are guides licensed in Texas or can anyone claim to be one?

Thx,
Frank

 

[colorado]

If I had a once in a lifetime 200 yard shot at a 10 foot plus brown bear in a meadow and my PH said go for it I would. I'd rather shoot him at 10 feet Dangerous game hunting is about adrenaline.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I have never heard of anyone even suggesting a first shot anywhere other than the boiler room when it is exposed. And when not 'No Shot'.

Can you explain how the hindquarters shot was even on the table?

Are guides licensed in Texas or can anyone claim to be one?

Thx,
Frank

Frank, I shot a Barbary sheep (aoudad) in Africa and my PH told me the dogs won't eat the meat. Guess that may be one reason a butt shot was "on the table" ... because the meat won't be. Joking aside, instructions from a guide to shoot even a sea urchin in the arse would give me cause for concern. "Does this guy have enough brains to breathe?"

 

[colorado]

I have shot cow elk running away from me in the black timber but i always go for a neck shot, if I miss oh well, if I hit the elk is down. Never wounded one that way.

 

[Scott CWO]

It isn't about downrange energy. Lots of cartridges are capable of delivering a lot of it at 300 or 400 yards. It's about the probability of a meaningful error creeping in.

A 3 MoA error (for whatever reason) at 50 yards is 1.5" off POA - that isn't a meaningful error because that's still in the wheelhouse. A 3 MoA error at 250 yards is 7.5", more than enough to be outside the vital zone.

I don't doubt you're a superlative shooter. What I do doubt is anyone's ability to be perfect every single time under hunting conditions at those distances, where an error will cost you a $25K bear hunt, and potentially your or your guide's life.

At the range, I can stack bullets with my 6.5x55 Swede all day long. I used to do a lot of 1000 yard shooting with my 308 Win. I've popped running hogs in the grape with my 45-70 from 60 or 70 yards. Last year on safari, I completely missed a 150 yard shot on a blesbok with that same tack-driving 6.5 Swede. I've been over that shot in my mind dozens of times, I still don't know what I did wrong. Just 5 minutes later, I got the same 150-ish yard shot on the same ram, and he dropped immediately.

On the same safari, I was hunting cape buffalo. My PH and I crept to within about 30 or 40 yards of a barren cow - perfectly broadside facing left. Just as I squeezed the trigger, she made a turn to the right, facing away, and it ended up being a raking shot that struck just in front of the rumen. If that had been a 70 yard shot, it probably would have hit the rumen; and then we'd have had a long day or 2 of tracking, I expect.

It can happen to any of us.

I think you quoted the wrong guy...

 

[sgt_zim]

I think you're right.