Looking for more reach then my .375 ..options?

[1dirthawker]

A Nosler AB 250 or mono could do well

hornady made a 250 gr gmx bullet for the 375 ruger (which i own) and i shot caribou and moose with it and it did a great job, shot flat, hit hard and was a pretty tough bullet. they make a similar bullet now for both 375's (ruger and h&h) they shoot pretty fast too, which will mean a pretty flat trajectory.

 

[khesser]

I base it off of my experience with clients and advice from my peers and mentors. Guides talk about these types of things when we get together and industry norms are established. Perhaps @1dirthawker will weigh in with his considerable brown bear guiding experience after reading my posts above.

Yes, arbitrary lines are established. In most African countries, the minimum DG caliber is 375. For brown bears, I like to see clients bring a 338 or 375. Colorado has a centerfire .24 caliber minimum for big game and a .50 caliber minimum for muzzleloaders. Colorado and several states have archery broadhead minimums as well. These things are decided based on past issues with weapons and people.

Your confidence is nice but no one is infallible and if you haven’t ever made a poor shot or had an issue in your hunting career, you are either the exception or have not hunted extensively.

I too prefer larger than 30 cal for brown bears but also when I grew up on Kodiak the 300 Weatherby was a very popular choice for hunting or just bear protection at one time. I also completely understand why places have a minimum caliber.

I shoot far more precision rifles matches than I hunt. Normal year for me I’ll go through at least two barrels on my match rifle and that’s why I have the confidence I do when hunting. Because of that and how my PH seen me shoot in Africa he pretty much gave me free reign on whatever distance I was comfortable with and I turned down a few animals because I didn’t like our shooting position or distance, how much animal was moving about.

 

[Beck]

Yes, get closer.

Comment of the day goes to Rafiki

 

[Mauser78]

The goal, especially for animals with platter-sized hooves or lots of fangs and claws all of which can cover 200 yards in 6 or 7 seconds, is to give yourself the highest probability of a clean, one-shot kill and ensure the animal expires with as little suffering as possible. There is no universe where a 200+ yard shot has the same probability of that as a 50 yard shot.

In war, a wounding shot is nearly as good as a fatal shot. With animals, the metric changes rather drastically.

I base it off of my experience with clients and advice from my peers and mentors. Guides talk about these types of things when we get together and industry norms are established. Perhaps @1dirthawker will weigh in with his considerable brown bear guiding experience after reading my posts above.

Yes, arbitrary lines are established. In most African countries, the minimum DG caliber is 375. For brown bears, I like to see clients bring a 338 or 375. Colorado has a centerfire .24 caliber minimum for big game and a .50 caliber minimum for muzzleloaders. Colorado and several states have archery broadhead minimums as well. These things are decided based on past issues with weapons and people.

Your confidence is nice but no one is infallible and if you haven’t ever made a poor shot or had an issue in your hunting career, you are either the exception or have not hunted extensively.

Isn’t the whole point being closer to actually be able to see and do something if the animal is wounded and do run, if you are close the chances of getting another shot or 2 in is better. Except if they charge you. At the long distances you don't know what the animal is doing, and the going in blind after it, almost like a leopard follow up.

 

[ldmay375]

I am certainly not a longer range hunter or shooter. For my moose shooting distances the .375 270 grain TSX at ~2700 fps have been excellent. I have loaded some of the 270 grain LRX which group well out of my rifle. I suppose this is my long range .375 bullet. I think the listed bc of it, is somewhat believable, certainly should be a pretty good increase over the TSX.

 

[ryno111]

Maybe sacrilege, but I’m a big fan of the 7s…28 Nosler and 7 PRC for distance.

 

[Mauser78]

I am using 230gr Peregrine bullets in my 375 M70 @2950fps. Works wonderful for large Plains game at longer range.

 

[OxfordTheCat]

Chiming in on this because there seems to be a fair few recommendations for copper monoliths and the TSX:

Based on the feedback and prevailing wisdom from those on this forum, isn't this the exact sort of scenario we should be avoiding with bullets like the TSX?

If there is ample evidence that bullets are often failing to open and expand even at modest ranges when the velocity drops, shooting 300+ at large game seems like a recipe for disaster.

 

[NIGHTHAWK]

Moose/bear/african Plans game

Looking for more reach then my .375 ..options?​

300 RUM, .300 WBY, or 300 PRC.

This is what I’ll be using for Moose and Bear in my 300 RUM:

Barnes LRX 212 Grain.

I’ve also considered using my SAKO in .375 H&H…

 

[JimP]

Just my 2 cents worth, if you need or want more reach than a 375 hh then you have few options. 375 Weatherby 378 Weatherby mag, 375 RUM and only a couple more. All of them will give you the capability of longer shots with less hold over.

If you want to drop down in caliber then any of the .338 magnums including the 340-378 Weatherby.

I am a quite capable shooter, both short and long range. However on a grizzly hunt in British Colombia very close to 13 years from this exact date I had a shot at a grizzly with my .340 Weatherby mag. That shot was 578 yards, my guide asked me if I could do it and I said that I could, however I wasn't going to do it. Not necessarily because of the range but because of what could of gone wrong.

I think that when you are hunting any game animal you need to ask yourself that same question, and the further the range a lot can go wrong no matter what you are capable of. And when it comes down to the Big 5, I would want that shot to be 100 yards or less, there is a lot less of a problem arising with a better placed shot at that range than at one further.

 

[michael458]

@michael458 has a lot of interesting data on lighter bullets from brass and copper and how they behave . Maybe he can chime in.

The vast majority of my experience falls way short to be of much use on this thread when most of the concerns and content is directed to .375 caliber, and or options for longer range shots. Subjects that are way way out of my area. I don', and never will own a 375 of any sort. I used to find 375 HH brass very good for making 458 lott, 470 Capstick and even 358 STA...... that is about the extent of any use I had for 375 anything....... Long range? 50 yards is long range for me, and today, 25 yards is getting to be a stretch..........

What I can tell you a little about is some experience with 9.3 caliber and my own 9.3 B&M, an excellent little medium rifle great for plains game and such as that. With CEB they had a 210 ESP Raptor that I used extensively on a shoot in South Africa to do some tests with it. Very impressive, on wildebeest size and similar about 50% of the time it was DRT, and the rest was a run for 25-40 yards and then DRT. Zebras would all run until they ran out of blood/air.... but massive damage. Anything under the size of wildebeest was 100% DRT on the spot. Out of roughly 20+ animals with this bullet at 2900 fps there were zero bullets recovered, all exits, all massive trauma and what have you.

This bullet was just ever so slightly on the edge of stability, ESP Raptors are strange animals, they do not follow the standard rules of stability. When I returned I had Dan at CEB make a 200 gr Flat Base Raptor, and this was a huge improvement in all areas, and gave even better terminal results.

For terminal performance, the modern day CNC bullets do not require the old Sectional Density needed in conventional expanding bullets to accomplish the mission. I would be looking at CEB Raptors or Maximus, Lehigh Copper and Hammer Copper. All of which will out perform "Terminally" any of the conventional premium expanders.

Longer range? Like I said, 50 yards was long for me, and today 25 is getting out there.......... So I am of no help with that at all............

If you move up to real calibers then we can talk with a little more authority...........

 

[DieJager]

For terminal performance, the modern day CNC bullets do not require the old Sectional Density needed in conventional expanding bullets to accomplish the mission

This is what I meant. I've read your remarks in multiple threads will a lot of enthusiasms. You have a wealth of knowledge regarding the new modern bullets and how they behave. Learned a lot.

If you move up to real calibers then we can talk with a little more authority.....

Ouch that hurt . I have only one slot left out of the six. We only can have 6 guns. Maybe in the future. Until then my 375 is the one I use.

 

[michael458]

Ouch that hurt . I have only one slot left out of the six. We only can have 6 guns. Maybe in the future. Until then my 375 is the one I use.

HEH......... Well you know how I am about that......... Great for rats and such.........

I have heard great reports on the CEB 235 Raptor, I think its 235, not something I pay a lot of attention to. All copper CNC Generation 1 bullets work the same way, look at Hammer/Lehigh and CEB Maximus come to mind, not sure what is available in that caliber.

But for sure, the jest of the issue the lighter Generation 1 Copper and Gen II Brass Raptors will fulfill the mission and then some.

 

[BJH65]

HEH......... Well you know how I am about that......... Great for rats and such.........

I have heard great reports on the CEB 235 Raptor, I think its 235, not something I pay a lot of attention to. All copper CNC Generation 1 bullets work the same way, look at Hammer/Lehigh and CEB Maximus come to mind, not sure what is available in that caliber.

But for sure, the jest of the issue the lighter Generation 1 Copper and Gen II Brass Raptors will fulfill the mission and then some.

It’s always with great interest reading about your experimenting and field experience with the light for caliber CEB, North Fork and other manufacturers of homogeneous copper bullets. What gives you great credibility is not just your ballistic testing but actual field testing and experience. It’s hard to argue with those results.

Prior to reading about your experiences, there was a time that I used my 375 RUM handloaded with 235 grain Barnes TSX at 3100 FPS (not a top end load) for all my North American hunting taking elk, large wild pigs and bison. All exits except on the 1500 lb bison but excellent penetration on that bison with the .375 caliber 235 grain TSX. That leads me to believe it would work fine on Cape buffalo.

Of course killing one bison with one 235 grain TSX certainly isn’t a comprehensive test but still it gave me some perspective on how a non traditional lighter weight all copper bullet at high velocity performs on very large game. Would I use it on our next cape buffalo hunt? No, for the limited number of buffalo I’ll probably hunt, I’ll stick to my 416’s and 458 Lott with 400 grain and 500 grain bullets but you have opened my eyes and made me a believer in the lighter weight 400 and 450 grain .458 caliber CEB, North Fork and others for DG.

 

[ftrovato]

I absolutely love my model 70 in
375 h&h but i want a caliber that is equivalent in power but has longer reach out and touch them range... Opinions?

I used my 416 Rigby with ease out to 150 yards using 400 grain bullets in 2024 taking around a dozen plains game with it.

In 2026 I'm going to also carry some 350 grain bullets giving me effectiveness out to 200 yards with minimal sight adjustment.

But then there is my 340 Weatherby Magnum....That gets it done at any distance on any plains game.

For me, anything beyond that distance I would like to stalk closer....much closer if possible.

 

[1dirthawker]

At that distance the 375 RUM probably a better choice. Bullet choice also is a factor as well. But you can see at 100 yards they are very close in ballistics and by 200 yards you can see the better BC of the 338 bullet is carrying more energy.

Hi,
i have been reading this thread that has seemed to morph into shooting dangerous game at long range. that is a very, very bad idea.

you mention bullet energy above. for what its worth, bullet energy does not kill animals per se. it is a measure of the power of the bullet/velocity combination.

long traumatic holes thru VITALS kills animals, not the energy expended on the animal.

 

[1dirthawker]

My saying I’m confident comes from knowing what my rifle and bullet choice are capable at given distances. When I can look at the data and see my rifle and bullet combination delivers more energy at 250 yards than some DG rifles deliver at 50 or a 100 yards shows it’s not so much the distance as it is what you are using to hunt with.

You have a 200 yard limit. Do you base that off of the rifle, bullet, or shooter? I have seen hunters I wouldn’t trust to make a 100 yard shot let alone one at 200.

All I’m saying is some arbitrary distance shouldn’t be the determining factor on what is a safe limit or not. Having a firm understanding of ballistics and ones capabilities is far more important. If my 338 delivers more energy at 250 yards than a 300Win Mag at the muzzle why should I be limited to 200 yards?

My comfort zone is not your comfort zone or the next guys. I won’t argue that with more distance comes a greater chance for error but I also do everything to make that error as small as possible.

@khesser,

i have LOTS of brown bear clients that come up here from the lower 48 that are very comfortable with their shooting ability. and, maybe even have rifles that deliver more energy at 250 yards than mine does at the muzzle. however, when the shooting starts, their "expertise/comfort" disappears quickly when a poor shot is made. (and they do make poor shots)

i do a little show and tell to the 4 clients that are newly on the boat we hunt brown bears off of. it goes like this:

i hold up a hunting magazine that at least 2 of them have brought onto the boat. I ask, "who could hit this magazine with their rifle at 100 yards?" they all confidently nod and confirm they could. then i ask, "who could hit it a 200 yards?" there is ALWAYS a pause, and then most of them nod that yes they think they could hit that as well. then i slap the magazine (you know 8.8"x11") to my chest, growl, spin in place a couple of times and take off in a direction that i happen to be pointing in when i stop spinning. then i ask, "how many of you could hit that magazine at 200+ yards, AND realize a bear moves about 5-7 times faster than i do." NOBODY ever says anything.

that's because hitting a sitting still animal at long range and hitting a spinning/running animal at long range are waaaay different. it is much easier to put shots on target at 50 yards than 250+. the bullet hits harder, (more energy) goes deeper and does more damage. AND, beyond 300 yards is just stupid and irresponsible.

we had a hunter that insisted on shooting at a very large bear, 10 footer at a ranged 300 yards. he had 2 guides with him as backup, was not sure they could get closer, so at the hunters absolute insistence they allowed him to shoot since 300 yards was "not a big deal, i can make this shot" for him. he hit the bear, and it took off. every one emptied their guns, the bear got away, wounded to some degree, was followed for 3/4 mile when blood ran out and it got away. that hunter was done hunting, he had cut his tag on that wounded bear. (the hunter and the guides all felt sick to their stomaches about how it turned out) now afterward, i think that he learned something but that is a very expensive lesson, and the hunters that think they can shoot long range at dangerous game are simply not thinking "what happens next?"

dangerous game should never be shot at long range, and for my hunting group, over 200 yards at a brown bear (yes, the arbitrary 200 yard distance) is long range, unless it was previously wounded, getting away and was over 200 yards.

so, if you can make solid hits at 9x11" targets spinning and moving at 35 mph (yep they run that fast) good on ya but you will be alone because i can't. your guide can't, and i have yet to meet the guy that can.

those real long range shots 500+ yards, it takes about 5 minutes to set up just to hit (maybe) that animal. then they are going to calculate and hit it running and changing range and speed at that range or beyond? hmmmm.

my 2 cents.

 

[1dirthawker]

Is ALL 200+ yard shots on dangerous game bad and unethical or just with certain calibers and certain shooters?

If a highly skilled marksman shoots a lion or brown bear at 200+ yards with a 50 BMG, 375 Cheytec or 416 Cheytac is that unethical and stupid?

yes, it is!

 

[1dirthawker]

The goal, especially for animals with platter-sized hooves or lots of fangs and claws all of which can cover 200 yards in 6 or 7 seconds, is to give yourself the highest probability of a clean, one-shot kill and ensure the animal expires with as little suffering as possible. There is no universe where a 200+ yard shot has the same probability of that as a 50 yard shot.

In war, a wounding shot is nearly as good as a fatal shot. With animals, the metric changes rather drastically.

in war, wounding is considered better. then it takes a couple or 3 guys out of action to move the wounded soldier, then a medi-vac of some sort (more people and resources) doctors and nurses to care for that one wounded individual. better in the big picture.

 

[ftrovato]

@khesser,

i have LOTS of brown bear clients that come up here from the lower 48 that are very comfortable with their shooting ability. and, maybe even have rifles that deliver more energy at 250 yards than mine does at the muzzle. however, when the shooting starts, their "expertise/comfort" disappears quickly when a poor shot is made. (and they do make poor shots)

i do a little show and tell to the 4 clients that are newly on the boat we hunt brown bears off of. it goes like this:

i hold up a hunting magazine that at least 2 of them have brought onto the boat. I ask, "who could hit this magazine with their rifle at 100 yards?" they all confidently nod and confirm they could. then i ask, "who could hit it a 200 yards?" there is ALWAYS a pause, and then most of them nod that yes they think they could hit that as well. then i slap the magazine (you know 8.8"x11") to my chest, growl, spin in place a couple of times and take off in a direction that i happen to be pointing in when i stop spinning. then i ask, "how many of you could hit that magazine at 200+ yards, AND realize a bear moves about 5-7 times faster than i do." NOBODY ever says anything.

that's because hitting a sitting still animal at long range and hitting a spinning/running animal at long range are waaaay different. it is much easier to put shots on target at 50 yards than 250+. the bullet hits harder, (more energy) goes deeper and does more damage. AND, beyond 300 yards is just stupid and irresponsible.

we had a hunter that insisted on shooting at a very large bear, 10 footer at a ranged 300 yards. he had 2 guides with him as backup, was not sure they could get closer, so at the hunters absolute insistence they allowed him to shoot since 300 yards was "not a big deal, i can make this shot" for him. he hit the bear, and it took off. every one emptied their guns, the bear got away, wounded to some degree, was followed for 3/4 mile when blood ran out and it got away. that hunter was done hunting, he had cut his tag on that wounded bear. (the hunter and the guides all felt sick to their stomaches about how it turned out) now afterward, i think that he learned something but that is a very expensive lesson, and the hunters that think they can shoot long range at dangerous game are simply not thinking "what happens next?"

dangerous game should never be shot at long range, and for my hunting group, over 200 yards at a brown bear (yes, the arbitrary 200 yard distance) is long range, unless it was previously wounded, getting away and was over 200 yards.

so, if you can make solid hits at 9x11" targets spinning and moving at 35 mph (yep they run that fast) good on ya but you will be alone because i can't. your guide can't, and i have yet to meet the guy that can.

those real long range shots 500+ yards, it takes about 5 minutes to set up just to hit (maybe) that animal. then they are going to calculate and hit it running and changing range and speed at that range or beyond? hmmmm.

my 2 cents.

I've never hunting Brown Bear and as much as I romanticize an Alaskan hunt for one I suspect I won't.

With that said, I cant imagine shooting more than 50-60 yards off hand and 125 of sticks on an animal that is that dangerous.