Long range proficiency IN THE FIELD

[Datchew]

in Texas, 300m is typically pistol range.
Iron sights naturally.


In all seriousness, I've hunted with a pretty good mix of former military and "bubbas" around the US.
Short of being in the specialized military programs, most people don't know the difference between FFP and 2nd FP, much less how to use them for ranging.
300 is a long shot and only enthusiasts know their dope drops and practice.
Often they have a buddy or vendor run their drops but for a factory ammo but it's atypical to find people that practice with them.

Western hunters as mentioned (sheep, elk, mulies) are the general rule for competently going past 300 and such.

 

[Doubleplay]

I would think Americans as a whole make up the highest percentage of people who have atleast rudimentary instruction in long range shooting. It’s my understanding the u.s. army trains to 300yards and the marines train to 500yards. Given the size of the United States military and the amount of turn over one could safely assume that 7-10% of the population has had basic training. I’m sure @Red Leg could word it better.

In a given day about %1 of US is serving in the armed forces in some capacity.
However most of the MOS's are not combat arms and in support roles where you don't need to be proficient with your rifle.
For the Marine units where every Marine considered a rifleman, qualification can be up to 300 yards which is not considered long range.
Unless you went trough a sniper course or specialized training no one shoots what is considered long range in the armed forces.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I have hunted the US west (Montana and Idah) almost consistently since 1964. During that time I attempted two shots over 300 yards, a bull elk in 1981 I eventually got after a long difficult day tracking, and a mule deer buck in 30+ mph wind last fall that I fortuitously missed. No attempted followup shot. Everything else has been taken at less than 100 yards. I'm primarily a tracker hunting heavy cover.

My longest shots have been in Africa: 330 meters for first kudu, 370 meters for first black wildebeest, and 400 meters for second kudu. None were shot with my rifle. I can do it but I prefer up close and personal. That's more about personal hunting skill rather than shooting fancy equipment.

 

[Connor Baumgarten]

Clearly you’re kiwi ph has never seen Quigley down under.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

In a given day about %1 of US is serving in the armed forces in some capacity.
However most of the MOS's are not combat arms and in support roles where you don't need to be proficient with your rifle.
For the Marine units where every Marine considered a rifleman, qualification can be up to 300 yards which is not considered long range.
Unless you went trough a sniper course or specialized training no one shoots what is considered long range in the armed forces.

Don’t forget most don’t know the difference between MOA and MILs let alone how to correctly use them. Even fewer knew how to run a combo Mil/Moa scope like the old Mark 4’s the army used were. Your reticle was Mil Dot so you’d range in Mils and do reticle hold overs/offsets with mild but have to convert to MOA when you dialed.

 

[Corey0372]

In a given day about %1 of US is serving in the armed forces in some capacity.
However most of the MOS's are not combat arms and in support roles where you don't need to be proficient with your rifle.
For the Marine units where every Marine considered a rifleman, qualification can be up to 300 yards which is not considered long range.
Unless you went trough a sniper course or specialized training no one shoots what is considered long range in the armed forces.

All Marines still have to qualify at 500 yards, even non-infantry

The new Marine Corps rifle qualification is here

Where you hit the target matters a lot more now.

www.marinecorpstimes.com

 

[Corey0372]

300 meters is a fairly common qualification standard I believe among NATO countries…

I know I’ve talked to British Royal Marine Commandos and French Foreign Legion soldiers that have both told me their qualification courses include 300m targets…

The Canadians have always had a reputation of having great Snipers. Besides them adopting the 338 Lapua while we still used the 308 and 300 Win Mag, I have a theory that this MAY have something to do with them making wind calls in Kilometers Per Hour (maybe).....

Hear me out......

In the US military (like the Canadian Military) our snipers are making windage and elevation adjustments using milliradians, which is a metric unit. When you measure your distance to target to get your elevation adjustment and you do it in meters... you're taking one metric unit (meters) and getting data in another metric unit (mils)

BUT.....

When you measure wind in MPH (standard unit) and input that data to get your Mil adjustments (metric) It would seem like this could be less accurate due to rounding errors in the formula, etc...

IF theres any Canadians in the thread please chime in.... when you're on the range or doing whatever, do you think to yourself "that feels like a 10 KPH wind" or "that feels like a 10MPH wind"?


P.S.
This may sound like im just taking a jab at metric users, I'm not, I'm genuinely curious if this would make a difference.

 

[WAB]

Don’t forget most don’t know the difference between MOA and MILs let alone how to correctly use them. Even fewer knew how to run a combo Mil/Moa scope like the old Mark 4’s the army used were. Your reticle was Mil Dot so you’d range in Mils and do reticle hold overs/offsets with mild but have to convert to MOA when you dialed.

Which makes no sense to me. I don’t care which system you use, everything should be mil or moa. When I was setting my rig up I went out of my way to make sure that was the case.

 

[Corey0372]

Don’t forget most don’t know the difference between MOA and MILs let alone how to correctly use them. Even fewer knew how to run a combo Mil/Moa scope like the old Mark 4’s the army used were. Your reticle was Mil Dot so you’d range in Mils and do reticle hold overs/offsets with mild but have to convert to MOA when you dialed.

Leupold has yet to apologize for this, hahaha

 

[Inline6]

Leupold has yet to apologize for this, hahaha

It is not just Leupold, S&B did it too. It was required for contracts. 94% of my scopes are mils. Unless something better comes around it will stay that way for myself.

The Canadians have always had a reputation of having great Snipers. Besides them adopting the 338 Lapua while we still used the 308 and 300 Win Mag, I have a theory that this MAY have something to do with them making wind calls in Kilometers Per Hour (maybe).....

Hear me out......

In the US military (like the Canadian Military) our snipers are making windage and elevation adjustments using milliradians, which is a metric unit. When you measure your distance to target to get your elevation adjustment and you do it in meters... you're taking one metric unit (meters) and getting data in another metric unit (mils)

BUT.....

When you measure wind in MPH (standard unit) and input that data to get your Mil adjustments (metric) It would seem like this could be less accurate due to rounding errors in the formula, etc...

IF theres any Canadians in the thread please chime in.... when you're on the range or doing whatever, do you think to yourself "that feels like a 10 KPH wind" or "that feels like a 10MPH wind"?


P.S.
This may sound like im just taking a jab at metric users, I'm not, I'm genuinely curious if this would make a difference.

Basically you determine your 600 yard wind so it lines up to .6 Mils at 600

That is your MPH Gun, so you have

100 = .1
200 = .2
300 = .3
400 = .4
500 = .5
600 = .6

From there you only use multiples of that MPH.

It is simple and it works.

As far as the Canadians goes, most of their records were set with a McMillan 50. The British hold the 2 spot on record with a 338LM.

 

[Corey0372]

It is not just Leupold, S&B did it too. It was required for contracts. 94% of my scopes are mils. Unless something better comes around it will stay that way for myself.



Basically you determine your 600 yard wind so it lines up to .6 Mils at 600

That is your MPH Gun, so you have

100 = .1
200 = .2
300 = .3
400 = .4
500 = .5
600 = .6

From there you only use multiples of that MPH.

It is simple and it works.

As far as the Canadians goes, most of their records were set with a McMillan 50. The British hold the 2 spot on record with a 338LM.

I dont mind using Mils, its what i learned long range stuff with, I prefer it, all my scopes are in Mils

I just didnt understand the Mil reticle with MOA turrets that Mark 4 had, that never made sense to me.



That chart you put up.... did Todd Hodnett have something similar that he put together in the Tremor3? Feel like a buddy who went thru his course was describing something similar

 

[freefall]

I've lived in south central AK for 44 years, the longest shot I've had at game is 150 yds. The closest, on a black bear, was 6 yds.
Should I go to the north slope to hunt caribou, I would likely have to stretch that out a bit.

 

[freefall]

I should have mentioned, I am too old, fat, and lazy to go drudging up and down mountains after 100 lb of sheep meat.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I dont mind using Mils, its what i learned long range stuff with, I prefer it, all my scopes are in Mils

I just didnt understand the Mil reticle with MOA turrets that Mark 4 had, that never made sense to me.



That chart you put up.... did Todd Hodnett have something similar that he put together in the Tremor3? Feel like a buddy who went thru his course was describing something similar

That’s the great flaw. We both know the military never does anything that makes sense to the end user.

There’s at least one general officer on this forum maybe they can shed some light on why the top makes decisions, that don’t help or make sense to the lowest common denominator, the ones that actually pull the trigger.

 

[Inline6]

I dont mind using Mils, its what i learned long range stuff with, I prefer it, all my scopes are in Mils

I just didnt understand the Mil reticle with MOA turrets that Mark 4 had, that never made sense to me.



That chart you put up.... did Todd Hodnett have something similar that he put together in the Tremor3? Feel like a buddy who went thru his course was describing something similar

People for a long time did not like Mils because it was not as fine an adjustment as MOA. The thought process has changed from fine adjustment to speed of use in field conditions. I'm not sure how much of that came into play back then. It was not uncommon at all for most manufacturers.


That table is from Frank Galli at sniperhide.

 

[C.W. Richter]

What people have to realize that you can't just pick up a factory rifle/scope/ammo and perform long-range shooting on animals. For me, it's been life-long shooting of rifles, beginning with varmints at long range as a kid. There I learned about breath control, overcoming bad triggers, having a proper rest or fine bipods. As a teen I shot competitively at school. It was then I got into (after living through it and reading many, many books on accurization and long-range shooting) elements of gunsmithing, proper scope selection-for-caliber, alignment, height/trigger/stock/bedding and handloading. My son and I have made plenty of 450-750 yd shots when varmint or antelope/deer/sheep hunting, when we've run out of cover and that's the only shot we're presented. This is a very broad subject, but boiled down, I'll say this: For <400ish yd shots, I'd say factory rigs w/ trigger jobs/bedding/quality optics/mounts and high-end ammo should do the trick. If you wish to extend that a tad, I'd say all the above plus a semi-custom factory rig (guns costing $2K-$3K) and handloading. IF you wish to make consistent shots under 1,000 yd I'd say you need the tool to get it done: $5K-$10K fully-custom rig (I like Bansner's Ultimate Ovis, but there are and handful of greats out there!) using the finest barrels, mounts, optics, also handloading and bullets designed for true longer range shooting (Berger, etc.) You'll also need a quality rangefinder and a scope that's set up for your particular cartridge/bullet ballistics. For long-range shots, I prefer .264 and .338 caliber because those long-and-narrow bullets have some of the highest BC and if heavy for caliber high SD as well. (There are of course now similar for 270/7/30, but we've had great success with (low-recoiling, super accurate) HOT 264s and big 338s as well. I remember a mtn goat guide swearing by .338s if you don't want fake horns on your mount! Also great for African PG. When you have quality equipment, you'll find that taking a 400 yd shot is no different than 100 yds. You'll also find that you can confidently take a 300 yd shot off-hand using a sling (or better yet proper elbow-on-knee kneeling/sitting/prone positions using just your sling and body parts for support.) Sitting with longer bipods fully extended has resulted in some spectacular longer shots. I've seen many hunters with benchrest length bipods and SMH (How the heck are they going to work when the grass is taller or when you have to sit up??) Harris Bipods eliminate the need for 2 sling swivel mounts (they have an additional sling mount on-board.)

From lifelong experience, I do like a good challenging hunting shot on occasion, but most deer/bear/varmints at home, and African PG, have typically been well within 200 yds (chip shots IMO.) That's why the "core-lokts" and any gun of appropriate cartridge will generally get the job done! The longest shots have been at Aoudads (W. African Barbary Sheep) across Hill Country canyons in TX. The weather (sunny, calm, warm) is perfect for such shots, also shooting atop solid rock, so that 750 yarder (actually uphill, so 750 ballistic yards but 825 actual yards away. Get a rangefinder that compensates for angle, or simply subtract 10% for steep up- or downhill shots. Where I live, in the second week of the deer season it's typically windy, sub-freezing, snowing, dim light....I often have to draw the line at 400-450ish yds under those conditions (and again, it's a rarity.) All of my hunting rifles are capable of 400-500 yd shots at home, but a few are capable of double that (or more, but then I'd just be shooting at paper (or varmints) for fun!)

When you stalk as close as possible to that Kudu of a lifetime (at 67 yds with your 7mm STW and premium Everything), do shoot that beeste! lol Those guns are more for the "what ifs." What if defines mountain hunting in AK, Canada and the Himalayas, et. al.!

"Good enough for Gov't." (excepting the finest sniper rigs and training) doesn't cut it in Long Range Hunting.

 

[Inline6]

What people have to realize that you can't just pick up a factory rifle/scope/ammo and perform long-range shooting on animals. For me, it's been life-long shooting of rifles, beginning with varmints at long range as a kid. There I learned about breath control, overcoming bad triggers, having a proper rest or fine bipods. As a teen I shot competitively at school. It was then I got into (after living through it and reading many, many books on accurization and long-range shooting) elements of gunsmithing, proper scope selection-for-caliber, alignment, height/trigger/stock/bedding and handloading. My son and I have made plenty of 450-750 yd shots when varmint or antelope/deer/sheep hunting, when we've run out of cover and that's the only shot we're presented. This is a very broad subject, but boiled down, I'll say this: For <400ish yd shots, I'd say factory rigs w/ trigger jobs/bedding/quality optics/mounts and high-end ammo should do the trick. If you wish to extend that a tad, I'd say all the above plus a semi-custom factory rig (guns costing $2K-$3K) and handloading. IF you wish to make consistent shots under 1,000 yd I'd say you need the tool to get it done: $5K-$10K fully-custom rig (I like Bansner's Ultimate Ovis, but there are and handful of greats out there!) using the finest barrels, mounts, optics, also handloading and bullets designed for true longer range shooting (Berger, etc.) You'll also need a quality rangefinder and a scope that's set up for your particular cartridge/bullet ballistics. For long-range shots, I prefer .264 and .338 caliber because those long-and-narrow bullets have some of the highest BC and if heavy for caliber high SD as well. (There are of course now similar for 270/7/30, but we've had great success with (low-recoiling, super accurate) HOT 264s and big 338s as well. I remember a mtn goat guide swearing by .338s if you don't want fake horns on your mount! Also great for African PG. When you have quality equipment, you'll find that taking a 400 yd shot is no different than 100 yds. You'll also find that you can confidently take a 300 yd shot off-hand using a sling (or better yet proper elbow-on-knee kneeling/sitting/prone positions using just your sling and body parts for support.) Sitting with longer bipods fully extended has resulted in some spectacular longer shots. I've seen many hunters with benchrest length bipods and SMH (How the heck are they going to work when the grass is taller or when you have to sit up??) Harris Bipods eliminate the need for 2 sling swivel mounts (they have an additional sling mount on-board.)

From lifelong experience, I do like a good challenging hunting shot on occasion, but most deer/bear/varmints at home, and African PG, have typically been well within 200 yds (chip shots IMO.) That's why the "core-lokts" and any gun of appropriate cartridge will generally get the job done! The longest shots have been at Aoudads (W. African Barbary Sheep) across Hill Country canyons in TX. The weather (sunny, calm, warm) is perfect for such shots, also shooting atop solid rock, so that 750 yarder (actually uphill, so 750 ballistic yards but 825 actual yards away. Get a rangefinder that compensates for angle, or simply subtract 10% for steep up- or downhill shots. Where I live, in the second week of the deer season it's typically windy, sub-freezing, snowing, dim light....I often have to draw the line at 400-450ish yds under those conditions (and again, it's a rarity.) All of my hunting rifles are capable of 400-500 yd shots at home, but a few are capable of double that (or more, but then I'd just be shooting at paper (or varmints) for fun!)

When you stalk as close as possible to that Kudu of a lifetime (at 67 yds with your 7mm STW and premium Everything), do shoot that beeste! lol Those guns are more for the "what ifs." What if defines mountain hunting in AK, Canada and the Himalayas, et. al.!

"Good enough for Gov't." (excepting the finest sniper rigs and training) doesn't cut it in Long Range Hunting.

I'm not sure I can fully agree with all of that. 15-20 years ago I will agree. Today some very fine factory rifles with factory ammo are being offered. My 308 shooting federal GMM had a 10 shot string of 3.2fps for the SD. Back in 2009 factory 6.5CM ammo I shot a 3/4" steel hanger 3 times in a row at 350 yards, it was horizontal.

Rifles like Seekins and Bergara as well as others will make it happen too, at distance with factory ammo. Things have come a long ways in just the past 10 years.

 

[PARA45]

If you’ve ever been on a military qualification range (ESPECIALLY with non-combat arms units, which make up the largest percentage of our military) you might second guess that opinion …. Hahaha

You're not talking about us Air Force guys, are you?

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

You're not talking about us Air Force guys, are you?

There are some folks in every branch that can shoot, but I think it boils down to familiarity and practice. Generally the combat arms guys get more ammo to shoot and practice with. At the height of GWOT the OPTEMPO was limiting for a lot of folks including combat arms guys and they weren’t getting as much range and practice time between deployments so the skills of a marginal rifleman perished and remedial training was required. If they’d just gotten back from a deployment and bad habits had to be broken this was also an issue at time.

I’ve see a lot of infantry guys who struggled to qualify. I can recall multiple times where an entire company or battalion had single digit 1st round GO qual rates. Minimum was 23 out of 40 and you could shoot expert (36-40) without ever engaging a 300m target. One commander swore up and down the targets were too shot up and that the results were flawed, hits weren’t being recorded when he failed to qual as a 1st round Go. Also watched the range officer walk him down range to “inspect” the pop-ups which were all new.

 

[C.W. Richter]

I'm not sure I can fully agree with all of that. 15-20 years ago I will agree. Today some very fine factory rifles with factory ammo are being offered. My 308 shooting federal GMM had a 10 shot string of 3.2fps for the SD. Back in 2009 factory 6.5CM ammo I shot a 3/4" steel hanger 3 times in a row at 350 yards, it was horizontal.

Rifles like Seekins and Bergara as well as others will make it happen too, at distance with factory ammo. Things have come a long ways in just the past 10 years.

My preference (for potentially costly longer range shots) is rifles where every single accurization facet has been gone over and improved as necessary, with the highest quality components. Also NOT a fan of the CM for long range hunting shots, either! 3,250+ fps with heavier pills. 350 is a chip shot for most rigs, but if your factory rig happens to shoot well (I consider Wby, Christiansen, etc. semi-custom factory) go with it. Watching many ibex/argali hunts over the years, I can tell you 90% of those hunters (with the poor, long range shooting) wished they had a better rig (and lungs!) lol I'd also bet that not many factored in the effects of altitude (which can be a big factor in Africa, but the PHs are aware of it.) I've shied away from factory for decades, but I'd buy another Weatherby. I shy away from anything advertised on TV (MSM, Coca-cola) like the real plague. In my experience, if you believe the exact opposite, you'll be closer to the truth.