Live Animal Relocation to USA

[Philip Glass]

I would think that there would be a risk starting another "invasive specie." A hundred years ago no one would have thought that wild hogs would become the problem that they are.

Wild hogs are only a problem because people are lazy and of course some like them and spread them intentionally. They have been here since the 1400's but somehow now they are a problem? They used to be run semi feral and caught several times a year with dogs and marked. Ever seen Old Yeller? Now we have a high percentage of absentee landowners who just let them multiply making life hard in the rest of us trying to run a ranch.
If exotic hoof stock are a problem in an area there is little trouble in removing them. Again the landowners have to have the will to remove them.
I understand the concerns of invasive species. We deal with them all the time from plants to insects and yes feral swine.

 

[randallhebert]

I wonder what the motivation would be for African Game Farmers to take part in that would be as well. If for instance, all the animals of Africa became much more common and plentiful to hunt in the states, then cost would go down for them in the states. There then wouldn't be nearly as much of an incentive for people to go over to Africa and hunt them as much.

Just like with most things, given enough money, someone will participate. But I'd think the African government and game farms especially would try to slow the roll on lots of live animal relocation to the US.

What they charge for one SA animal in the states would pay for a 7 day safari with multiple animals. 28000 for a kudu trophy fee.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Let's remember this is on fenced, private land in Texas. This is a big part of my business and certainly no hobby.

I’m aware. I know it’s big business for a lot of people. Hobby probably wasn’t the best term to use although it is for some. Regardless of how big of a business it is and the species it saved from extinction I don’t agree with the whole exotic hunting industry in the US. One, these species shouldn’t be here. Two, they compete with native species. Three, the hunting of them here takes away from hunting in Africa. Just cheapens the entire concept although its not cheap.

I fail to see the conservation value apart from the very beginning. How many animals are imported from Africa every year? How many come from private operations in RSA? There’s very minimal conservation value in the practice. From what I see it’s all about business, not conservation. Not to mention the clientele…. What kind of person wants to hunt a buffalo or bongo or markhor or rhino or whatever in Texas. Completely asinine

 

[ActionBob]

Any pricing ?...tried looking but to much effort pissing around on the sat wifi

Mike they have an odd way of numbering the lots they sell. The first digit is male, second is female, third is included male offspring, 4th is included female offspring. So a family group of critters might be 1.2.3.1 so a mature male, 2 females. 3 nursing males and a nursing female.

Or 1.0 is a male. 0.1 is a female.

 

[Lone Star Bluegrass]

With all this news I have been seeing in SA about ANC and expropriation. Who knows what will happen over there long term. Why can’t the USA with SA assistance start relocating African Animals here in the USA? I know Texas has some from back in the day but i would think it would be great for us to change whatever laws in our way to make relocation possible here. I have some land I could easily put a fence on.
What animals would thrive here versus what animals would have a tough time biologically speaking?
This is just something I have pondered on.

To answer the original post, I think The Endangered Species Act and Lacey Act have been expanded/redefined by executive agencies to include virtually all non domesticated/livestock species.

 

[spike.t]

Mike they have an odd way of numbering the lots they sell. The first digit is male, second is female, third is included male offspring, 4th is included female offspring. So a family group of critters might be 1.2.3.1 so a mature male, 2 females. 3 nursing males and a nursing female.

Or 1.0 is a male. 0.1 is a female.

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Bloody hell....expensive....

 

[Flbt]

I don’t know by who’s “ethnics” but you’re comparing apples to oranges. This thread is talking specifically about importing non native species for hunting purposes. I’ll stand by my earlier comments saying it’s not sound conservation. I have no problem with importing species to feed the masses

Oh ok
I was thinking you problem was them not being native to the continent. Not the hunting part
My bad some times the dyslexia will send you
Missing the point and looking at things different

 

[ActionBob]

I’m aware. I know it’s big business for a lot of people. Hobby probably wasn’t the best term to use although it is for some. Regardless of how big of a business it is and the species it saved from extinction I don’t agree with the whole exotic hunting industry in the US. One, these species shouldn’t be here. Two, they compete with native species. Three, the hunting of them here takes away from hunting in Africa. Just cheapens the entire concept although its not cheap.

I fail to see the conservation value apart from the very beginning. How many animals are imported from Africa every year? How many come from private operations in RSA? There’s very minimal conservation value in the practice. From what I see it’s all about business, not conservation. Not to mention the clientele…. What kind of person wants to hunt a buffalo or bongo or markhor or rhino or whatever in Texas. Completely asinine

I understand your points but I believe you are mistaken in many of them. I'm a newbie to the exotics so don't know everything about the industry yet.. We only have 7 addax and a couple Axis. And too many whitetail. We have to supplement feed with protein pellets and alfalfa.

But seriously these are livestock. Herfords, Angus, holstiens in fact all cattle are not native to North America. What is the difference? Does it matter if @Philip Glass raises sheep or addax on HIS ranch? Does it matter if we have a few of these critters instead of cattle?

When you say they compete with native species i get the point but don't see it really having a measurable impact. Much like in South Africa, they compete with cattle, sheep and goats. And in many cases compliment them

I do not believe there are any substantial numbers of animals imported from Africa at this point. Not sure if Cape buffalo were recently brought in? The people i know who are the dealers have a couple guys on the road traveling to zoos and such to aquire animals.

As I mentioned earlier, I see a problem with inbreeding which seems to be largely ignored. Lots of crooked horns but maybe that is from injuries as most or all are kept in high fenced property and many in some pretty small pens. Some fresh generic material from Africa would be welcomed!

I do not see how it takes away from hunting in Africa. It is certainly not cheap to hunt them here in Texas. However it does supplement Africa Hunting by making unattainable species available.

Now your point that it cheapens it not in the manner of less money... Yes, the example of hunting a Marhor in it's native areas vs. shooting one in Texas for a fraction of the cost might be one... But those are no where near in the same people who would do either. One requires great physical ability, nerves of steel and a fat checkbook. The other involves shooting a goat probably from a stand or high seat. However those are personal choices. You can look down on one or the other but it is still the choice of the hunter. And yes I've had a guy tell me how utterly stupid it is to hunt a Markhor in the wild when you could just shoot one in Texas for a fraction of the cost. It takes all kinds to make the World go around

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Sheep or cattle (or any other livestock) are largely beneficial. If the exotics are not for hunting then they’ve entered into the mostly useless/hobby realm (which I don’t like either). I see a big difference in keeping domesticated animals and keeping exotics.

My main beef is the hunting part. I’d rather see the dollars go to actual conservation in Africa (or wherever and if possible or not at all) because it does in fact take resources away from actual conservation.

Cape buffalo are here now (something like $80,000 for one hunt I saw IIRC) and if I’m not terribly mistaken Kevin Robertson is playing some role with them at one ranch.

I’d rather a species be unattainable than attainable if the experience is lessened.

 

[ActionBob]

I don’t know by who’s “ethnics” but you’re comparing apples to oranges. This thread is talking specifically about importing non native species for hunting purposes. I’ll stand by my earlier comments saying it’s not sound conservation. I have no problem with importing species to feed the masses

Watusi cattle are in our neighborhood. As are longhorns. People have no issues with longhorns because they've been here longer than Texas has been Texas. But neither are native. At least I'm not aware of any native cattle in North America other than bison.

I would argue neither of those cattle species are here to feed the masses. At this point that would be Angus and Holstein cattle. A hybrid hog that outperforms all others but doesn'treally resemblea single breed, a white turkey and a white chicken that i have no idea of breed.

Longhorns and Watusi can feed people as can all the exotic wildlife but they are here for the cool factor. Yard art. A business based on people wanting something different, not better. And there is nothing wrong with any of this!

If you want to argue they take away from native wildlife, again I'd argue they have replaced beef cattle, domestic goats and sheep.

If you want to argue they detract from the ability to produce food for the masses.... First stop covering prime farm land with solar panels.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Watusi cattle are in our neighborhood. As are longhorns. People have no issues with longhorns because they've been here longer than Texas has been Texas. But neither are native. At least I'm not aware of any native cattle in North America other than bison.

I would argue neither of those cattle species are here to feed the masses. At this point that would be Angus and Holstein cattle. A hybrid hog that outperforms all others but doesn'treally resemblea single breed, a white turkey and a white chicken that i have no idea of breed.

Longhorns and Watusi can feed people as can all the exotic wildlife but they are here for the cool factor. Yard art. A business based on people wanting something different, not better. And there is nothing wrong with any of this!

If you want to argue they take away from native wildlife, again I'd argue they have replaced beef cattle, domestic goats and sheep.

If you want to argue they detract from the ability to produce food for the masses.... First stop covering prime farm land with solar panels.

I don’t buy into the whole subjective “there’s nothing wrong with any of this but it’s not for me outlook”. We see this all the time on here. If it’s not for someone they have obviously decided that it’s not right in some way or another.

Don’t like solar panels either.

But let’s not stray from the topic at hand. I do not agree with the exotic hunting scene in the US period.

 

[John Wasmuth]

To each their own……

 

[Muskox]

Not that I wouldn't do it, especially if someone else were paying, but I have very little interest in hunting most animals in places they could not be, except for human intervention.


However, I can think of a a couple of few exceptions:

Ringneck Pheasant (in the US)
Red Stag (New Zealand, etc.)

If I though about it longer, I'm sure I could come up with a few more.


Kudu in Texas, no thanks...



(Seeing the world for natural history is important to me, but I'd go to New Zealand or Argentina to hunt exotics)The

The only reason I would agree with this for the financial issues.

A Kudu in Texas can be taken for about $10-20,000

A Kudu in all of the 5 ranch hunt nations (Zambia, Namibia, Botswana, South Africa and Zimbabwe) cost less than $5000-10000 for the entire hunt if you only took a Kudu. In most cases for very little more money (probably less than $10,000 in South Africa, Botswana or Namibia) you could take a kudu and 5-8 other plains game species maybe if you got a good deal even including air fare.

Wild kudu in a big game concession anywhere in Africa, the daily rate makes it a cheap plains game option. Especially at more than $850-2500 a day.

A Red stags in Texas is a $5500-20,000 price point. There are some cheaper red stags in Argentina. and New Zealand and a lot more expensive ones.

Free range stags only exist in certain places in West Texas.

Most of the free range stags in Argentina and NZ are still $5000.

We have free range red stags for $2500-25,000. depending on you view point. A $25,000 red stags in Europe would fit inside of a $25,000 red stag in Argentina or New Zealand several times over.

I wouldn't hunt either animal in Texas at the current price points. But if everything else was equal, of course.

To me there is value in travel. Of course there is value in African prices.

If a guy could do a similar mixed bag in Texas for similar prices, I don't think we would spend 10-30 hours traveling as much.

Saying that if I shot a Bongo in Texas, or a markhor where budget allowed I don't think I would campaign it as a Cameroon or Tajikistan animal.

 

[Sabre]

What they charge for one SA animal in the states would pay for a 7 day safari with multiple animals. 28000 for a kudu trophy fee.

So multiple people have quoted my comment and said something like this as if I don't realize the costs for SA game in the united states are currently exorbitant compared to hunting in SA. I clearly state in the comment that keeps getting quoted "If they became much more common and plentiful in the states, the COSTS FOR THEM WOULD GO DOWN".

 

[John Wasmuth]

So multiple people have quoted my comment and said something like this as if I don't realize the costs for SA game in the united states are currently exorbitant compared to hunting in SA. I clearly state in the comment that keeps getting quoted "If they became much more common and plentiful in the states, the COSTS FOR THEM WOULD GO DOWN".

It seems that the opposite is true, the more there are, the more high fenced operations there are, the higher the price. There’s about a gazillion blackbuck antelope in Texas, same with aoudad, yet the prices are staggering. Seems like every day there is a new high fenced operation going up.

 

[Philip Glass]

I understand your points but I believe you are mistaken in many of them. I'm a newbie to the exotics so don't know everything about the industry yet.. We only have 7 addax and a couple Axis. And too many whitetail. We have to supplement feed with protein pellets and alfalfa.

But seriously these are livestock. Herfords, Angus, holstiens in fact all cattle are not native to North America. What is the difference? Does it matter if @Philip Glass raises sheep or addax on HIS ranch? Does it matter if we have a few of these critters instead of cattle?

When you say they compete with native species i get the point but don't see it really having a measurable impact. Much like in South Africa, they compete with cattle, sheep and goats. And in many cases compliment them

I do not believe there are any substantial numbers of animals imported from Africa at this point. Not sure if Cape buffalo were recently brought in? The people i know who are the dealers have a couple guys on the road traveling to zoos and such to aquire animals.

As I mentioned earlier, I see a problem with inbreeding which seems to be largely ignored. Lots of crooked horns but maybe that is from injuries as most or all are kept in high fenced property and many in some pretty small pens. Some fresh generic material from Africa would be welcomed!

I do not see how it takes away from hunting in Africa. It is certainly not cheap to hunt them here in Texas. However it does supplement Africa Hunting by making unattainable species available.

Now your point that it cheapens it not in the manner of less money... Yes, the example of hunting a Marhor in it's native areas vs. shooting one in Texas for a fraction of the cost might be one... But those are no where near in the same people who would do either. One requires great physical ability, nerves of steel and a fat checkbook. The other involves shooting a goat probably from a stand or high seat. However those are personal choices. You can look down on one or the other but it is still the choice of the hunter. And yes I've had a guy tell me how utterly stupid it is to hunt a Markhor in the wild when you could just shoot one in Texas for a fraction of the cost. It takes all kinds to make the World go around

Markhor are now $250,000 and up. I am glad I have some at my ranch so some hunters can actually afford to hunt one someday!

 

[Philip Glass]

I’m aware. I know it’s big business for a lot of people. Hobby probably wasn’t the best term to use although it is for some. Regardless of how big of a business it is and the species it saved from extinction I don’t agree with the whole exotic hunting industry in the US. One, these species shouldn’t be here. Two, they compete with native species. Three, the hunting of them here takes away from hunting in Africa. Just cheapens the entire concept although its not cheap.

I fail to see the conservation value apart from the very beginning. How many animals are imported from Africa every year? How many come from private operations in RSA? There’s very minimal conservation value in the practice. From what I see it’s all about business, not conservation. Not to mention the clientele…. What kind of person wants to hunt a buffalo or bongo or markhor or rhino or whatever in Texas. Completely asinine

If you don't agree with the exotic industry then you are against private property rights. This is where my blood boils from some of you guys. THIS IS NOT PUBLIC LAND WHERE YOU GET A SAY IN WHAT HAPPENS. THIS IS MY RANCH WITH MY ANIMALS SOME OF WHICH ARE FUNCTIONALLY EXTINCT IN THE WILD!
If you fail to see the conservation value in us successfully raising animals that would otherwise be extinct then you are no conservationist and are in the PETA camp!

 

[Philip Glass]

It seems that the opposite is true, the more there are, the more high fenced operations there are, the higher the price. There’s about a gazillion blackbuck antelope in Texas, same with aoudad, yet the prices are staggering. Seems like every day there is a new high fenced operation going up.

Blackbuck, although historically plentiful in Texas, were wiped out in the deep freeze a few years ago. Supply and demand.
They are another species that has has been repatriated to their homeland from Texas along with many, many others.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

If you don't agree with the exotic industry then you are against private property rights. This is where my blood boils from some of you guys. THIS IS NOT PUBLIC LAND WHERE YOU GET A SAY IN WHAT HAPPENS. THIS IS MY RANCH WITH MY ANIMALS SOME OF WHICH ARE FUNCTIONALLY EXTINCT IN THE WILD!
If you fail to see the conservation value in us successfully raising animals that would otherwise be extinct then you are no conservationist and are in the PETA camp!

What a leap lol. I’m against private property rights now?? What a joke. Markhor in Texas.. what an abomination. I’ve already provided a small caveat for species that would be extinct otherwise.

 

[Philip Glass]

Sheep or cattle (or any other livestock) are largely beneficial. If the exotics are not for hunting then they’ve entered into the mostly useless/hobby realm (which I don’t like either). I see a big difference in keeping domesticated animals and keeping exotics.

My main beef is the hunting part. I’d rather see the dollars go to actual conservation in Africa (or wherever and if possible or not at all) because it does in fact take resources away from actual conservation.

Cape buffalo are here now (something like $80,000 for one hunt I saw IIRC) and if I’m not terribly mistaken Kevin Robertson is playing some role with them at one ranch.

I’d rather a species be unattainable than attainable if the experience is lessened.

You simply are blind to the conservation value of what we do. Did you know that Arabian Orxy were repatriated to the Arabian Peninsula and are now in hunt able numbers? Did you know that Scimitar Horned Orxy have been sent to Senegal and are now growing in number? I could go on but some of yall don't care.
I understand that it is stupid to hunt a Kudu in Texas for $20k. It's a free market and people pay dumb prices for things in our society all the time.