List of required questions for negative hunt reports

[bassasdaindia]

It's come to the point where a negative report isn't worth the abuse you open yourself up to. Just sayin'

agreed .

 

[Hank2211]

agreed .

Funny you would say that. I completely disagree.

I think there are many examples where a well expressed complaint on this forum has resulted in a response from the subject of the complaint and a solution that had not otherwise seemed possible.

The problem arises with complainnants who are less than candid. Posters take the side of the complainant only to find that the complainant has been less than forthright. People then feel they've been taken for a ride, and the responses can easily turn negative.

That's why full disclosure is so important.

On the other hand, if being right is more important than full disclosure, I can see where we might have a challenge.

 

[Royal27]

Funny you would say that. I completely disagree.

I think there are many examples where a well expressed complaint on this forum has resulted in a response from the subject of the complaint and a solution that had not otherwise seemed possible.

The problem arises with complainnants who are less than candid. Posters take the side of the complainant only to find that the complainant has been less than forthright. People then feel they've been taken for a ride, and the responses can easily turn negative.

That's why full disclosure is so important.

On the other hand, if being right is more important than full disclosure, I can see where we might have a challenge.

I couldn't agree more.

As someone who has publicly posted a complaint here this is something that I considered carefully before I posted. I truly tried to stick to the facts and answered questions when asked about pertinent details I left out. I again tried to answer factually and leave out my own personal opinion. And trust me, that was tough to do....

I wanted others to learn from my mistake and was willing to put myself out there in order to accomplish that. I took some heat, but it was pretty limited, especially for the Internet. I can only attribute that to the fact that I tried to be as open as possible and lay the entire set of facts out the best I could.

Now if I had spun things to try and make myself look better? Well, we've all seen what happens when that happens.... Almost without exception when the pitchforks come out due to a client complaint it's when disclosure wasn't made.

 

[BRICKBURN]

It's come to the point where a negative report isn't worth the abuse you open yourself up to. Just sayin'

That is certainly a problem. Bully the messenger with displaced anger because someone does not like your message is rife on the internet. Encouraging members to reasonably share the details of the concern or complaint is much more helpful for everyone in the end. Even if the particular issue is not resolved, it will allow others to have a heads up to the potential problems that could arise.

 

[Red Leg]

This is a very difficult subject. Those of us who have been here a while can all recall several instances where a negative post turned into real boomerang for the original poster. In several of these cases, I think it was richly deserved. In other cases, the original poster didn't, couldn't or wouldn't return to the subject to face what was often a tribunal-like phalanx of interrogators. Literary warfare is fun for some - much less so for others. There are sites which use a format for reports, with a place for outfitter response. The bad thing with those are it brings almost all dialogue to a stop.

 

[Dragan N.]

Funny you would say that. I completely disagree.

I think there are many examples where a well expressed complaint on this forum has resulted in a response from the subject of the complaint and a solution that had not otherwise seemed possible.

The problem arises with complainnants who are less than candid. Posters take the side of the complainant only to find that the complainant has been less than forthright. People then feel they've been taken for a ride, and the responses can easily turn negative.

That's why full disclosure is so important.

On the other hand, if being right is more important than full disclosure, I can see where we might have a challenge.

Yes but people are generally speaking less likely to disclose information that hurts their side/case. I would guess this applies to both clients and the outfitters. For this reason, at least in my opinion, the best way to get full or as much disclosure as possible is through open discussion and one where both sides give their side of the story. Subsequent questioning by other members also helps to uncover more details. Using a say 5 Ws format in the initial report doesn't prevent the original poster from omitting details that might hurt their case. Anyway just my $.02.

 

[Mike B]

I agree that the “what do you want out of the complaint?” Question is a good one. Even if the “want” is to inform people of the bad experience and what was done to try to correct the situation. A bad report shouldn’t be a bitch session.

 

[Egan36]

Good points here. But when is a bad report warranted? Does it have to do with something illegal or surprises during trip? Does it have to be against the person writing the report?

Questions I ask myself. Only because I had an experience a few years ago that wasn't totally bad. But would stop me from hunting with that outfitter. Also had a person in my party who did not enjoy his hunt at all(Who is not a member here.)
Does this constitute a bad report? I guess it can be different for everyone. But when does one decide to write that negative report?

 

[Royal27]

Good points here. But when is a bad report warranted? Does it have to do with something illegal or surprises during trip? Does it have to be against the person writing the report?

Questions I ask myself. Only because I had an experience a few years ago that wasn't totally bad. But would stop me from hunting with that outfitter. Also had a person in my party who did not enjoy his hunt at all(Who is not a member here.)
Does this constitute a bad report? I guess it can be different for everyone. But when does one decide to write that negative report?

It can definitely be a fine line.

I'd say the trick is to be honest, open, and stick to the facts of the hunt. In other words, tell your actual experience good or bad. It isn't always easy to do....

Good reports can have bad in them and vice versa. After reading enough reports you learn to read between the lines. What did they say? What didn't they say? For the "gray area" reports I think you need to be able to read between the lines.

This is also where PMs come in. No one should be afraid to reach out and ask privately what they may not be comfortable asking publicly. To use your experience as an example, if you'd written what I felt was a less than glowing report, but not a bad one, and didn't directly come out and say you wouldn't hunt again, I'd PM and ask you that.

I've done that many times. Sometimes the answer is yes, and sometimes no.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Good points here. But when is a bad report warranted? Does it have to do with something illegal or surprises during trip? Does it have to be against the person writing the report?
...........

Informing fellow hunters why you would not use that service again or where it did not meet expectations is germane. Details tend to be the test of veracity. No details will leave holes which leaves the door open for doubt.

Mysteriously posting just before show season to bitch in a post with little background story is more likely sour grapes. That tends to lead to the inquisition type of response.

Not enough ice cubes in my drink on Thursday night! Not so much!

 

[Egan36]

Thank you

 

[BRICKBURN]

.................
Good reports can have bad in them and vice versa. After reading enough reports you learn to read between the lines. What did they say? What didn't they say? For the "gray area" reports I think you need to be able to read between the lines.
...............

This is an incredibly powerful tool. A case of details left out creating room for doubt.
Someone jumping up and down with excitement about an upcoming hunt and then there is no hunt report. Why? Makes me wonder what's up.

 

[BRICKBURN]

A great place to get some training on reading reviews is tripadvisor.

Pick a hotel and there will be reviews from 1 to 5 stars. Read the 1star reviews. You will quickly see who has a legitimate concern and who is a lunatic with a grudge losing it over some perceived slight.

You will also learn to ask questions about what is important to you:
Is the pool in operation during my stay?
Is there construction going on during my stay?
Is the building wood frame?
Is there a convention?
Watch the timeline for the comments to. 1967 won't be to useful.
etc etc.

Same concepts with a hunt report. Learn the questions to ask from someone else's experience.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

But when is a bad report warranted?

This is a great question. I'll add my two cents to this that is perhaps a repeat of things I may have already posted but no desire to go back and find out. Having been on both the client side and business side of African safaris for a few years now, a few thoughts off the top of my head aimed at the goal of never having to decide if posting a negative report is needed or not.

1) Outfitters serving clients from literally all over the world have a challenge to understand the cultural norms of a lot of people. And even within say the U.S. there are different norms. If the outfitter isn't handling things the way you'd like, let them know ASAP, meaning right away such that they can make changes. Not informing the outfitter during the hunt and giving them the opportunity to correct issues virtually guarantees you get on the flight home disappointed versus looking forward to the next trip. Don't wait until the hunt is over to express your complaints!

2) If even after you've made an attempt to salvage a bad start with your outfitter, you still end up with a bad experience, try to work it out directly with the outfitter. If possible before you leave to head home. If not possible then through email or phone calls.

3) I may take some heat for this next statement. You need to ask yourself if you're being a bad client? While they are few in comparison to the number of good clients, there are bad clients. A good safari experience takes teamwork. While the client is paying for the safari, and as such delivering a good experience is primarily the responsibility of outfitter/PH, it also takes a client working with them to ensure a good time. I know Jacques had a group hunt a few years back with one of the clients in camp being the one you don't want, no matter how much money they may be spending. Not only was the client a nightmare for the PH, his behavior was also creating a bad time for the his friends. It got to the point that Jacques told him to pack their bags and he would be taking him to the airport the next day. At this point the client got it, apologized and the hunt went on. I'm sure this fellow didn't think he was being a bad client, but he figured it out quickly.

This was a particularly egregious example, but the point is bad clients happen and to varying degrees. So you need to be honest with yourself and ask if you're being unreasonable with your concerns. This may take bouncing your concerns off others you trust to determine this.

4) If you've tried to work things out during the hunt, subsequently afterwards if things still didn't go well and you don't feel you're being unreasonable, then it may be time for that bad report. This forum was created to share information, both good and bad. Writing up a bad report can put you in a spot with other members here. They may have hunted with the outfit and think they walk on water. But if you have a legitimate beef, it doesn't matter. As far as I'm concerned, it can happen to anyone even the best. If the outfitter has a good reputation overall, one negative report isn't going to sink them. At the same time, if the outfitter is mediocre or worse, there will or at least should be a number of reports out there that taken as a whole paint an accurate picture. The key to it all is to remove emotion from the report and stick to the facts as @Royal27 mentioned above.

 

[firehuntfish]

@PHOENIX PHIL,

Spot on assessment and advice as usual... I could not have expressed my own sentiments any better... You saved me 10 minutes of typing...

 

[Royal27]

The key to it all is to remove emotion from the report and stick to the facts as @Royal27 mentioned above

This point needs to be reinforced, and I will use the hotel example that @BRICKBURN brought up.

When you go onto TripAdvisor to write a report on a hotel you stayed at do you first think "geez, I wonder if I will hurt the CEO of Marriot feelings by what I'm about to say?" The answer is of course you don't. You're much more likely to be straight forward and honest. Why? Because you don't have a relationship with the CEO.

It isn't the same with a hunt. You've developed a very personal, even if superficial, relationship with the outfitter and or PH. This makes it much harder for most of us, myself included, to be brutally honest at times. We simply don't want to hurt feelings or cause conflict, real or percieved. This isn't easy to get over.

When writing anything negative the fact that it's really "just business" needs to be remembered, by both sides. That isn't a license to be rude, but we should try our best to be honest.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Literally, the first assigned homework in MBA class was to write two letters, one of commendation and one of complaint related to a business you dealt with that week.
It was an eye opener for many students.
Give a Business feedback, when you are happy and not so much. A good business will respond to and use the feedback.

 

[Divernhunter]

When I read ANY report(bad or good) I often ask myself something that an excellent outfitter/PH said to me. Some people are "born hunters" and some are "money made" hunters.
Born hunters are there to enjoy the hunt, not allow the weather, a breakdown(providing the equipment is good and maintained), minor things(they served green beans and you do not like them plus you never said before the hunt), hunting from a blind(you wanted to spot and stalk), beer not cold enough, things that the outfitter/PH has no real control of, gov actions since you booked the hunt or one of hundreds of other things that you can "let go" or let it eat at your guts/mind.
Born hunters will let the bad(except extreme) roll off their back, continue to enjoy the hunt(it IS better than working), try to help with troubles they can, keep bitching to a min(especially over things that no one there has control over), keep a good attitude, ask MANY questions before booking and even after but BEFORE the hunt so there are no surprises for the hunter or the outfitter/PH once you are there. Communicate with the PH in a polite manner during the hunt especially if you have any concerns.
Money made hunters are often there to get the "record book" animal(often without putting in the work required), do not listen to the PH on all sorts of things they should, treat the PH/staff like crap(especially if they do not measure up to the hunters inflated expectations), over react to things out of the outfitters/PH control(weather, flat tire and such), feel they are INTITLED to special and pampered treatment, drink too much, is nasty/rude, not there to enjoy the HUNT, over react to things when they go wrong no matter who is at fault, be a pompous ass about things and think they know more about the hunt than the PH/outfitter.

Yes there are different degrees of both type of hunters. There are also degrees of how good the outfitter/PH really is. True some outfitters/PH people are not really good just as some hunters are not good clients. Then there is the fact that some people cannot get along well with certain other people. That is life but as the hunter it is my responsibility to try and find out if I can "work with" the outfitter/PH BEFORE I pay my money for a hunt. I have done this and passed on some people because I was not sure about the fit.

My 2 Cents

 

[Hank2211]

Good points here. But when is a bad report warranted? Does it have to do with something illegal or surprises during trip? Does it have to be against the person writing the report?

Questions I ask myself. Only because I had an experience a few years ago that wasn't totally bad. But would stop me from hunting with that outfitter. Also had a person in my party who did not enjoy his hunt at all(Who is not a member here.)
Does this constitute a bad report? I guess it can be different for everyone. But when does one decide to write that negative report?

If it would stop you from returning, it’s worth mentioning. The outfitter should appreciate it, because he can show how he responds to issues and can improve his business. I’d rather you told me what you really thought than kept quiet about a problem. If I don’t know about it, I can’t fix it.

The last thing I want is for AH to become like a restaurant review section. Only review the good, never the bad. How is that going to help me avoid mistakes? How is that going to help people improve?

And as for people getting the third degree. Really? Are we that sensitive? If you have a case to make, make it. Questions will generally help you improve your case, because they may highlight holes you didn’t see. If you don’t care to improve your case, or it is so full of holes that you could drive a land cruiser through it, then it may be that you’re wrong.

And if you’re that fragile, whatever you do, don’t post your complaint on that other forum!

 

[BRICKBURN]

......... And if you’re that fragile, whatever you do, don’t post your complaint on that other forum!