Limpopo Buffalo

[375Fox]

Another dem trick. Lying.

I didn’t call you pretentious or a prick. I said the crowd has become elistist in their views. I said you and a few others look down on South Africa hunting and a few other topics, and bring them up in threads not related to that.

The other stuff comes from someone else or your head.

Those were Gizmo’s words in this thread.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

It is interesting to note that most if not all members of AH (the majority at least) would be quick to condemn certain demographic’s “do whatever makes you happy” and “there is no objective truth” mindsets. Yet here we are.

 

[PARA45]

I'll jump in again. The OP did not ask if he could do better. The OP did not ask how he should spend his money. The OP did not ask if he should go here or there.

This is what the OP asked:

My PH who I have hunted with the last several years has been trying to get me to come back for a Buffalo as he knows its on my bucket list. I am not a good judge of Bull's so I thought I would put this in here for those with more experience to help me with some input. I am not looking for a record book Bull but something representative and good quality. He sent me these 2 that he has a location on for a possible 2026 hunt. Any thoughts or input are helpful. Are these decent quality Bulls for SA ?

View attachment 656518

View attachment 656517

Regardless of how some on here feel, at the end of the day, it is the OP's money and decision. If the OP wants to hunt South Africa in 5 acres, 2000 acres, or 50,000 acres, it's his business. And, if the above Buffalos are named Larry and Moe, let the OP decide if he wants to hunt those named Buffalo, or one with a different name. It's not your money and it's not your hunt.

 

[375Fox]

I'll jump in again. The OP did not ask if he could do better. The OP did not ask how he should spend his money. The OP did not ask if he should go here or there.

This is what the OP asked:



Regardless of how some on here feel, at the end of the day, it is the OP's money and decision. If the OP wants to hunt South Africa in 5 acres, 2000 acres, or 50,000 acres, it's his business. And, if the above Buffalos are named Larry and Moe, let the OP decide if he wants to hunt those named Buffalo, or one with a different name. It's not your money and it's not your hunt.

And this was his response. He doesn’t seem to have the outrage at advice some of you do. Your side is creating a narrative that wasn’t there on the first page.

 

[WAB]

I sure hope he uses a CRF rifle
on this hunt….

 

[Flipper Dude]

I sure hope he uses a CRF rifle
on this hunt….

Now that’s funny right there. I don’t care who you are.

 

[gizmo]

The pro-south Africa side actually made this narrative anti-south Africa. If a person wants to hunt there they should know what questions to ask to choose the best hunt for their money. The effort to shut down any discussion about choosing the right hunt there is really disgraceful. The Democrats employ these same tactics in politics (very unsuccessfully in 2024).

Well
Let’s not talk about if your going to pop off at the mouth you should know what or who your talking about. The OP didn’t say squat about where (other than Limpopo), when, who with, or under what circumstances. Mainly I’m sure because he had no idea he was going to get pummeled by a couple of guys that seem to somehow know everything yet know absolutely nothing about the details. That’s it. A snide comment was made about the picture with the justification that if it’s a cell phone or trail cam pic it’s an automatic bad thing, yet that person turns around and defends his use of the same technology with the statement that those deer have this huge area. I got news for you, most whitetail in the Texas hill country won’t cover 50,000 acres in their lifetime. Most die a few miles from where they were born. It’s a hypothetical argument. If those buffalo are on a place of that size that argument is null and void.
It’s the same crap constantly, “ you can’t do that but I can because I do it this way and that makes it ok” Balarky.
Also you yourself have made such a big deal out of if you don’t hunt these expensive wild areas your unethical and wrong.
Not to mention that you directly attack people’s livelihoods yet now nothing about those individuals or there operations. You get on your high horse because of some experiences you’ve had with a certain outfitter(s) at a certain place(s) and automatically assume that everyone does it that way and they are bad. You don’t know crap from shampoo about these people but continually want to run your mouth. Then you are shocked by the fact that those people call you out on your absolute BS. So yes it’s pretentious and elitist. Guess what buttercup the world does revolve around you nor do people have to bend to your will.

 

[gizmo]

Also his response has nothing to do with what I initially had a problem with anyway. That wasn’t in response to the naming them comment. And even so I still don’t see where you get off telling someone to use a different outfitter when you have no idea who the original outfitter is or under what circumstances the hunt is conducted under. You assumed a lot in response to someone who asked a question.
Truthfully Fox, the general message you are trying to convey I agree with mostly. You make some spot on points but it’s the manner in which you phrase it that’s the problem. If that would have been a pic in Zambia you wouldn’t have said crap yet there are plenty of high fence places there that hunt plains game and buffalo for that matter. I’ve spoken with several at DSC and SCI not to mention a very reputable Zambian outfitter that is a sponsor is high fenced yet I don’t see anyone blasting him.
You try to twist everything anyone says around to fit your narrative. Listening to your rants is like trying to listen to a Biden press conference.

 

[ACE (in CT)]

I have learned more reading this than from many of the other threads here. Any Personal animus aside, there is an incredible wealth of knowledge on this site, and I enjoy it immensely.

Interestingly, I actually read the OP’s question differently in that I thought he was asking if these were “good” bulls and that he was showing the Pics as representative of Bulls on the property that his PH was proposing he come to hunt in 2026. Apparently everyone else read it as more like: “these 2 are for sale, would you like to come shoot one of them?”

I started reading this after the discussion was well underway, When I first saw the direction this Thread was going and I saw the pics, I thought: “OK no ear tags, thats good”.
Is it even likely that those same 2 Bulls (who may or may not have names) will be there to hunt in 2026? Do we know that just because the pics were taken near feed that is how they hunt them?

 

[Daisy]

I have learned more reading this than from many of the other threads here. Any Personal animus aside, there is an incredible wealth of knowledge on this site, and I enjoy it immensely.

Interestingly, I actually read the OP’s question differently in that I thought he was asking if these were “good” bulls and that he was showing the Pics as representative of Bulls on the property that his PH was proposing he come to hunt in 2026. Apparently everyone else read it as more like: “these 2 are for sale, would you like to come shoot one of them?”

I started reading this after the discussion was well underway, When I first saw the direction this Thread was going and I saw the pics, I thought: “OK no ear tags, thats good”.
Is it even likely that those same 2 Bulls (who may or may not have names) will be there to hunt in 2026? Do we know that just because the pics were taken near feed that is how they hunt them?

A looooot of assumptions were made. A lot.

 

[Red Leg]

I have learned more reading this than from many of the other threads here. Any Personal animus aside, there is an incredible wealth of knowledge on this site, and I enjoy it immensely.

Interestingly, I actually read the OP’s question differently in that I thought he was asking if these were “good” bulls and that he was showing the Pics as representative of Bulls on the property that his PH was proposing he come to hunt in 2026. Apparently everyone else read it as more like: “these 2 are for sale, would you like to come shoot one of them?”

I started reading this after the discussion was well underway, When I first saw the direction this Thread was going and I saw the pics, I thought: “OK no ear tags, thats good”.
Is it even likely that those same 2 Bulls (who may or may not have names) will be there to hunt in 2026? Do we know that just because the pics were taken near feed that is how they hunt them?

We do not know any of that - to include the posters who are claiming outrage. What we do know is that the OP's outfitter/ PH sent him pictures taken at a feeding station or waterhole (you can also see a blind or for all I know gazebo over the back of one of the animals) of two bulls that would normally be considered too young to shoot. That would be a red flag at least for me.

I left a humorous pithy comment that might cause the OP to ask a few questions - assuming the quality of the hunt is important to him. Obviously, for some, suggesting some investigation might be in order is apparently a threat - so much so, that the responses included ad hominem attacks.

I may be wrong, but I do not recall anyone suggesting the OP should forego a South African Hunt or even one with this outfitter. I personally certainly did not suggest only some other destination should be his goal or even that he should not hunt a fenced property. I'll note for the third time I posted a pretty widely read article about a mature buffalo I hunted in South Africa.

But I do suggest, based on those two photographs, that he should employ some due diligence before committing to that particular hunt. Now, if that represents such a threat to a game ranch owner - even one in the US - that those cautionary posts are beyond the pale, then I would suggest the issue isn't mine.

 

[gizmo]

Nope, wrong again. I have no problem with asking questions or anything of the like. I have every problem with someone suggesting a person use a different outfitter when, as you said, assumptions were made and not a single person outside of of the OP knew anything about the buffalo or hunt or outfitter or anything else.
I also took issue with the comment as it was, by your own admission, “That is my immediate reaction whenever an outfitter posts a picture of a particular animal - cape buffalo or whitetail or whatever with an offer that it is available to be shot.” Yet you also just said, “We do not know any of that”.
Now you did also say, “It is absolutely possible that the outfitter sent him photos of the type of bull he could expect from his or the self-supporting herd from which he buys a quota. I would suggest that would be a point worth discussing.” And that is 100% of one of my points. We don’t know that.
An outfitter that no one knows who they are is getting bashed by people who have no clue who they are, what they advertise, what circumstances their hunts are conducted under, nor even if the pictures are representative photos, photos of animals to be hunted, or even some copy and paste photos from the internet the OP found as a representation.
As to why I initially had a problem with the statement is because even though you meant it in jest you have no clue about any of the above details and immediately made assumptions that reflect poorly on the hunting industry, particularly RSA operators.
I very much encourage asking questions and being prepared. I acknowledge that there are some bad apples in every barrel of the entire industry globally. I 100% believe due diligence should be taken to make sure one knows what they are getting themselves into. It just gets old when people immediately start criticizing things with absolutely zero information on what the reality is.
The comment struck me wrong, I admit that and I also admit that I immediately jumped for the jugular but…. It leads into the next problem I have which is that not everyone believes the same thing as some of you. That does not make them bad, unethical, or lesser in any manner. It just means just because it’s not your thing it doesn’t mean it isn’t someone else’s. And that doesn’t make them bad people either.
There has been this argument for years and we all know which side of the fence everyone is on. I respect that there is a flip side to what I believe but I nor the majority of people don’t look for excuses to criticize others every chance we get, yet there are some that would run over an old lady in traffic just for the opportunity to make some remark on someone else’s post. I’ve seen it multiple times on paying sponsors hunt offers. That is wrong, it is messing with people’s livelihoods, and has no place.
None of those that I know, myself included, would have one problem if those same issues were brought up appropriately in a separate post in general conversation open for discussion. Yes there are quite a few of us that take offense pretty quickly over something that would probably not warrant a snicker. But years of some of the same people over and over bashing on others for nothing more than to make themselves Feel relevant to a conversation and superior has led to some pretty short tempers.
Now I’m not blaming you for all of that. You made a snarky comment, it struck me wrong, I took offense, and replied back. I also felt it was inappropriate but as I’ve said before that’s my opinion and I’m well aware of what they are like. That’s pretty much where it ends between the two of us. Most of the issues and soap box rants I’ve been on are with others due to past experiences.

 

[Red Leg]

Nope, wrong again. I have no problem with asking questions or anything of the like. I have every problem with someone suggesting a person use a different outfitter when, as you said, assumptions were made and not a single person outside of of the OP knew anything about the buffalo or hunt or outfitter or anything else.
I also took issue with the comment as it was, by your own admission, “That is my immediate reaction whenever an outfitter posts a picture of a particular animal - cape buffalo or whitetail or whatever with an offer that it is available to be shot.” Yet you also just said, “We do not know any of that”.
Now you did also say, “It is absolutely possible that the outfitter sent him photos of the type of bull he could expect from his or the self-supporting herd from which he buys a quota. I would suggest that would be a point worth discussing.” And that is 100% of one of my points. We don’t know that.
An outfitter that no one knows who they are is getting bashed by people who have no clue who they are, what they advertise, what circumstances their hunts are conducted under, nor even if the pictures are representative photos, photos of animals to be hunted, or even some copy and paste photos from the internet the OP found as a representation.
As to why I initially had a problem with the statement is because even though you meant it in jest you have no clue about any of the above details and immediately made assumptions that reflect poorly on the hunting industry, particularly RSA operators.
I very much encourage asking questions and being prepared. I acknowledge that there are some bad apples in every barrel of the entire industry globally. I 100% believe due diligence should be taken to make sure one knows what they are getting themselves into. It just gets old when people immediately start criticizing things with absolutely zero information on what the reality is.
The comment struck me wrong, I admit that and I also admit that I immediately jumped for the jugular but…. It leads into the next problem I have which is that not everyone believes the same thing as some of you. That does not make them bad, unethical, or lesser in any manner. It just means just because it’s not your thing it doesn’t mean it isn’t someone else’s. And that doesn’t make them bad people either.
There has been this argument for years and we all know which side of the fence everyone is on. I respect that there is a flip side to what I believe but I nor the majority of people don’t look for excuses to criticize others every chance we get, yet there are some that would run over an old lady in traffic just for the opportunity to make some remark on someone else’s post. I’ve seen it multiple times on paying sponsors hunt offers. That is wrong, it is messing with people’s livelihoods, and has no place.
None of those that I know, myself included, would have one problem if those same issues were brought up appropriately in a separate post in general conversation open for discussion. Yes there are quite a few of us that take offense pretty quickly over something that would probably not warrant a snicker. But years of some of the same people over and over bashing on others for nothing more than to make themselves Feel relevant to a conversation and superior has led to some pretty short tempers.
Now I’m not blaming you for all of that. You made a snarky comment, it struck me wrong, I took offense, and replied back. I also felt it was inappropriate but as I’ve said before that’s my opinion and I’m well aware of what they are like. That’s pretty much where it ends between the two of us. Most of the issues and soap box rants I’ve been on are with others due to past experiences.

I do not have anything to add to this. My last post sums up my point of view accurately. The OP and any other reader can draw their own conclusions. As I said, I do not believe I am the one with an issue.

 

[318AE]

My PH who I have hunted with the last several years has been trying to get me to come back for a Buffalo as he knows its on my bucket list. I am not a good judge of Bull's so I thought I would put this in here for those with more experience to help me with some input. I am not looking for a record book Bull but something representative and good quality. He sent me these 2 that he has a location on for a possible 2026 hunt. Any thoughts or input are helpful.

30-06Ken,

Ref “for those with more experience to help me with some input” and “Any thoughts or input are helpful”.

My preference is for a PH to have photos of animals clients have recently, successfully taken as indicators for the trophy quality to expect in an area. This is common throughout Africa, including the RSA and Limpopo, and applies to the most affordable hunts.

 

[Doubleplay]

I'll add one thing and I won't even bother to check the replies.
I don't care who does what and where. What ever floats their boat.
However I have a problem with the terminology.
If you know the outcome and the animal you'll kill, don't call it hunting it's just shooting.
Hunting is something you don't know what the outcome will be.

 

[flatwater bill]

@gizmo has some passionate replies......and if you don't get a little passionate about hunting......do something else.....go to a dog show... watch WWE....repaint your trailer. I gotta commend @Red Leg for a little humor....not Rodney Dangerfield level...but still funny and the first that I have seen from him. We should all be able to laugh at ourselves a bit.......but @WAB has summarized this entire thread in a few words...............just use a CRF. And if......a big if...it's in 404, the result will be magic...........and lastly (ok, second lastly) if you're over 70, and someone tells you a hunt may be too easy....tell them to GF THEMSELVES...............FWB

 

[gizmo]

@gizmo has some passionate replies......and if you don't get a little passionate about hunting......do something else.....go to a dog show... watch WWE....repaint your trailer. I gotta commend @Red Leg for a little humor....not Rodney Dangerfield level...but still funny and the first that I have seen from him. We should all be able to laugh at ourselves a bit.......but @WAB has summarized this entire thread in a few words...............just use a CRF. And if......a big if...it's in 404, the result will be magic...........and lastly (ok, second lastly) if you're over 70, and someone tells you a hunt may be too easy....tell them to GF THEMSELVES...............FWB

Well passion is certainly something I’ve never lacked of. Good judgement and social skills on the other hand can certainly be debatable.

 

[375Fox]

Also you yourself have made such a big deal out of if you don’t hunt these expensive wild areas your unethical and wrong.
Not to mention that you directly attack people’s livelihoods yet now nothing about those individuals or there operations. You get on your high horse because of some experiences you’ve had with a certain outfitter(s) at a certain place(s) and automatically assume that everyone does it that way and they are bad. You don’t know crap from shampoo about these people but continually want to run your mouth. Then you are shocked by the fact that those people call you out on your absolute BS. So yes it’s pretentious and elitist. Guess what buttercup the world does revolve around you nor do people have to bend to your will.

If you are going to lie to win your argument I’d appreciate a quote. When it comes to buffalo I would advise someone to hunt a free range area if they want a certain buffalo hunt because I feel many outfitters in south Africa are careless with the truth and hunting supplemented herds that give the appearance of self sustaining when they are not. I’ve been pretty clear in my posts for years, I don’t support put and take hunting and view it as unethical whether that is for buffalo or plains game. I also view it as incredibly dishonest that Limpopo outfitters hunting small farms attempt to change the definition of self sustaining to better market their hunts. A high fence property that has self sustaining animals and is managed on a quota gets my full support. However, it’s very unfortunate these operations have to complete and won’t be as profitable as an operator that markets and gives the illusion of self sustaining populations when they are not.

The only thing I’m really shocked by is the total lack of professionalism and integrity you continue to demonstrate with your posts. Your business is put and take hunting. I’m not surprised you sympathize with outfitters that partipate, but lying to support your goal is crossing a line. You keep saying we are missing your point. It doesn’t seem you have one except to vent that these discussions are potentially detrimental to your business and those that operate in the same way.

Here’s a quote for you from your website:
“Animals such as bongo, markhor, sambar, ect. are done on a price request basis. We can bring them in upon request.”

 

[gizmo]

If you are going to lie to win your argument I’d appreciate a quote. When it comes to buffalo I would advise someone to hunt a free range area if they want a certain buffalo hunt because I feel many outfitters in south Africa are careless with the truth and hunting supplemented herds that give the appearance of self sustaining when they are not. I’ve been pretty clear in my posts for years, I don’t support put and take hunting and view it as unethical whether that is for buffalo or plains game. I also view it as incredibly dishonest that Limpopo outfitters hunting small farms attempt to change the definition of self sustaining to better market their hunts. A high fence property that has self sustaining animals and is managed on a quota gets my full support. However, it’s very unfortunate these operations have to complete and won’t be as profitable as an operator that markets and gives the illusion of self sustaining populations when they are not.

The only thing I’m really shocked by is the total lack of professionalism and integrity you continue to demonstrate with your posts. Your business is put and take hunting. I’m not surprised you sympathize with outfitters that partipate, but lying to support your goal is crossing a line. You keep saying we are missing your point. It doesn’t seem you have one except to vent that these discussions are potentially detrimental to your business and those that operate in the same way.

Here’s a quote for you from your website:
“Animals such as bongo, markhor, sambar, ect. are done on a price request basis. We can bring them in upon request.”

I see someone stuck a quarter in you again. Get over yourself, the more you go the more you prove my point.

 

[gizmo]

If you are going to lie to win your argument I’d appreciate a quote. When it comes to buffalo I would advise someone to hunt a free range area if they want a certain buffalo hunt because I feel many outfitters in south Africa are careless with the truth and hunting supplemented herds that give the appearance of self sustaining when they are not. I’ve been pretty clear in my posts for years, I don’t support put and take hunting and view it as unethical whether that is for buffalo or plains game. I also view it as incredibly dishonest that Limpopo outfitters hunting small farms attempt to change the definition of self sustaining to better market their hunts. A high fence property that has self sustaining animals and is managed on a quota gets my full support. However, it’s very unfortunate these operations have to complete and won’t be as profitable as an operator that markets and gives the illusion of self sustaining populations when they are not.

The only thing I’m really shocked by is the total lack of professionalism and integrity you continue to demonstrate with your posts. Your business is put and take hunting. I’m not surprised you sympathize with outfitters that partipate, but lying to support your goal is crossing a line. You keep saying we are missing your point. It doesn’t seem you have one except to vent that these discussions are potentially detrimental to your business and those that operate in the same way.

Here’s a quote for you from your website:
“Animals such as bongo, markhor, sambar, ect. are done on a price request basis. We can bring them in upon request.”

Omg you found a quote on my website that is publicly displayed and I’ve never tried to hide. That’s it I guess you cracked the case!