Life After The Indian Hunting Ban

[PSRaghav]

Ethics vary from people to people
I know a gent who believed in 'Sun down.Gun down. ".For him . Hunting was basically giving the Game a Fair Chance of escape. He felt that hunting in the night was not as challenging and wsie tlike watching a movie in black and white where the beauty of nature could not be appreciated. .

 

[mark-hunter]

Ethics vary from people to people
I know a gent who believed in 'Sun down.Gun down. ".For him . Hunting was basically giving the Game a Fair Chance of escape. He felt that hunting in the night was not as challenging and wsie tlike watching a movie in black and white where the beauty of nature could not be appreciated. .

Although allowed for some species, like boar, jackal in my country - I dont do nigh hunt.
Waiting in blind, over bait, at less then 50 mtrs, is not a hunt for me. Its butchering.

So, I dont even have NV or thermal optics, although it is available in local shops and legal.

 

[PSRaghav]

The British came into India through Bengal. They first settled in Calcutta. They were the ones who laid down the hunting rules and regulations. Darjeeling being a part of West Bengal, I found it hard to believe that one could get a permit for a tiger with a 12 bore gun.

So I consulted two friends
1. Gurpreet Singh author of the book "Roars and Trumpets" Tales from the wild .......published by Natraj Publishers . A book that deals with tiger and elephant shikar in Assam at the same time when Rehman saab was hunting his tigers in Darjeeling.
The author is an ex Tea Planter and is now retired and settled in Chandigarh
Presently he is working on his second book " A planter remembers"

2. Dr Sutanu Chatterjee from Calcutta. Dr Chatterjee is a doctor by profession and was working for the West Bengal state government Hospitals. He is now retired and settled in Calcutta.He is a registered elephant hunter and has shot 9 Rogue elephants till date.

Both senior shikaris have informed me that : The law was the same throughout India
.375 magnum was the minimum calibre required for Tiger .

I have requested both these gents to join this group and contribute

 

[1dirthawker]

On a related subject , here is a very disconcerting , yet interesting thing , which many of you American gentlemen would find a little uncomfortable :
Most of the tigers in the Sanderband delta of the Buri Ganga ( which you will know as Ganges river ) , south of Calcutta , in Bengal State were of man eating variety . This is because the tigers in this region were living off primarily on rubber plantation workers

Mr Rahman,
truth is, does not bother me a whit, this is history, how the world was, before instant communication, instant news, etc.

when i was young, ( awhile ago) one of the man eating tigers was actually a listing in the guiness book of world records for one of the worlds worst disasters. again, how the world was.....not how it is now.

not sure if we have improved or not as a specie, but, nobody in america should be bothered by people in another country being eaten by tigers when their own government did not care enough to deal with it. again, back in the day, things were different, might take a month for information to come out of the district to tell the power that be that thing were bad there!

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

The British came into India through Bengal. They first settled in Calcutta. They were the ones who laid down the hunting rules and regulations. Darjeeling being a part of West Bengal, I found it hard to believe that one could get a permit for a tiger with a 12 bore gun.

So I consulted two friends
1. Gurpreet Singh author of the book "Roars and Trumpets" Tales from the wild .......published by Natraj Publishers . A book that deals with tiger and elephant shikar in Assam at the same time when Rehman saab was hunting his tigers in Darjeeling.
The author is an ex Tea Planter and is now retired and settled in Chandigarh
Presently he is working on his second book " A planter remembers"

2. Dr Sutanu Chatterjee from Calcutta. Dr Chatterjee is a doctor by profession and was working for the West Bengal state government Hospitals. He is now retired and settled in Calcutta.He is a registered elephant hunter and has shot 9 Rogue elephants till date.

Both senior shikaris have informed me that : The law was the same throughout India
.375 magnum was the minimum calibre required for Tiger .

I have requested both these gents to join this group and contribute

PSRaghav
I know for a fact that in Darjeeling , India local Shikaris could get a permit to go after tigers with a 12 bore . I lived in that era and saw it with my own eyes and did it , on multiple occasions. This is not something based on speculation. This is something , l have actually seen and done myself . If you cannot believe that ( at least until 1972 ) the 12 bore was permitted for use on tigers in Darjeeling by local hunters , then l give up .
Furthermore , it is a well established fact that many a Maharaja in our time used to use something called a 12 bore " Paradox " ball-and-shot-gun to lay low tigers . That is a hard fact and an internationally recognized fact which any person who researched fire arms history will know .
And one more thing , the law about the shot-gun worked like this : The minimum bore diameter in most states was .375 for rifles , but a 12 bore has a bore diameter of above .700 ( l will need to check on that , but l know for a fact that it is above .700 in bore diameter ) . I do not know about other places , not do l pretend to know , but l can stake my life on the fact that in Darjeeling , India , from 1950 to 1970 ( at the very least ) , a local Shikari would and could get permits to take Royal Bengal tigers with a 12 bore . It is also very obvious that back in those days , local Shikaris were also invariably poor. Almost everyone could afford a 12 bore , but not everyone could afford a double barrel rifle . And l have evidence of this fact . Mr. Hoss Delgado is acquiring some sources for me , which he shall post here , as he is better with computers than l am .

And l have checked just now . The bore diameter of a 12 bore is 0.729 .

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Mr. Rahman has a lot of patience in dealing with people trying to make his look like a fraud repeatedly .
Well , l lack the patience of these older guys . So , I'm just gonna lay the truth out for every one to see.

This book , Heart of a Hunter is one the Last accounts of Shikar in India being given by a visiting client hunter and this is post 1947 India , not even colonial era .
To anyone who can read , look what it says about 12 gauge shotguns . Clearly , they were not only legal , but also very common for tigers as well .

Don't believe Mr. Rahman , yet ? Okay , fine Check this out.

This book was written by Kenneth Anderson , one of the LAST British guys who chose to stay back in India even after it's independence. He hunted man eaters and a couple of rogue elephants.
There is even a separate page about him on these forums themselves.
Even he is documenting that 12 gauge shotguns loaded with buckshot and slugs were used at that time on tigers .
Multiple sources can't lie .
I asked my dad and my grand dad , both of whom had hunted in Darjeeling ( as foreign clients ) . Both of them verified that 12 gauge was very common among local hunters for bagging tigers.
Also , the landlords and Maharajas used to used 12 gauge Westley Richards Exploras and 12 gauge Holland and Holland paradox guns to kill dozens of tigers .
12 gauge is WAY above .375 cal . It's a .729 , as Mr. Rahman said.
Infact , l will respectfully disagree with Mr. Rahman and say that 12 gauges were likely used for bagging tigers even in other parts of India and not just Darjeeling .
If anyone tries to deny this , well.... they know nothing about hunting in India in the old school days . Either that , or they are trying VERY VERY desperately to make Mr. Rahman look like a liar .

12 gauge was illegal for tigers in the old days ? Oh , my god , how did the companies Westley Richards and Holland & Holland survive ? These guys practically made a living by turning out 12 gauge Exploras and Paradox guns for Maharajas to use on tigers . I guess their record ledgers are wrong too

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Mr Rahman,
truth is, does not bother me a whit, this is history, how the world was, before instant communication, instant news, etc.

when i was young, ( awhile ago) one of the man eating tigers was actually a listing in the guiness book of world records for one of the worlds worst disasters. again, how the world was.....not how it is now.

not sure if we have improved or not as a specie, but, nobody in america should be bothered by people in another country being eaten by tigers when their own government did not care enough to deal with it. again, back in the day, things were different, might take a month for information to come out of the district to tell the power that be that thing were bad there!

1dirthawker
Thank you so much for your insightful comment . Tigers and leopards still are a very large problem for villagers in many places of India and Bangladesh ( near Sundarban forests )

 

[Bullhunter]

I do not know about other places , not do l pretend to know , but l can stake my life on the fact that in Darjeeling , India , from 1950 to 1970 ( at the very least ) , a local Shikari would and could get permits to take Royal Bengal tigers with a 12 bore . It is also very obvious that back in those days , local Shikaris were also invariably poor. Almost everyone could afford a 12 bore , but not everyone could afford a double barrel rifle .

In many old German books it is also an written fact, that the local people of India - from an farmer, to an shikari to an maharadscha - used an normal shotgun (sometime single, but mostly double barreld) to hunt tiger and leopards in old India. Also some German hunters come and (hunt officialy, with permind) with an 16 or 12 bore shootgun, sometimes with an paradox gun, in some seldom cases with an three-barreld rifle (Drilling).

I have posted in the other thread (interview...) some old English hunting books - and will add some last ones from you today - in them this is also written, that english gentleman do that also. (And I think with offical state permisson.)

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

In many old German books it is also an written fact, that the local people of India - from an farmer, to an shikari to an maharadscha - used an normal shotgun (sometime single, but mostly double barreld) to hunt tiger and leopards in old India. Also some German hunters come and (hunt officialy, with permind) with an 16 or 12 bore shootgun, sometimes with an paradox gun, in some seldom cases with an three-barreld rifle (Drilling).

I have posted in the other thread (interview...) some old English hunting books - and will add some last ones from you today - in them this is also written, that english gentleman do that also. (And I think with offical state permisson.)

Bull Hunter
You are a most well read gentleman .

 

[Foxi]

"Most of the tigers in the Sanderband delta of the Buri Ganga ( which you will know as Ganges river ) , south of Calcutta , in Bengal State were of man eating variety . This is because the tigers in this region were living off primarily on rubber plantation workers"

Mr Rahman.
In the 60's there was an Austrian, Werner Fend, who was very popular in our country with his movies and the hunts for man-eating tigers.
He wrote some books about hunting and nature in India, I devoured them all as a child.

Especially the movie about maneater of Abutschmar was great.
He also dedicated himself to the tiger of the Sundabars. Creepy as he describes, that tigers often swam miles far into the sea to get fishermen out of their small boats at night. One of the reasons was his opinion, the frequent human corpses, that were washed by the monsoon rains there into the mangroves forests and so the tigers only came to the taste of human flesh.

Have you ever heard of him?

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

"Most of the tigers in the Sanderband delta of the Buri Ganga ( which you will know as Ganges river ) , south of Calcutta , in Bengal State were of man eating variety . This is because the tigers in this region were living off primarily on rubber plantation workers"

Mr Rahman.
In the 60's there was an Austrian, Werner Fend, who was very popular in our country with his movies and the hunts for man-eating tigers.
He wrote some books about hunting and nature in India, I devoured them all as a child.
View attachment 313584
Especially the movie about maneater of Abutschmar was great.
He also dedicated himself to the tiger of the Sundabars. Creepy as he describes, that tigers often swam miles far into the sea to get fishermen out of their small boats at night. One of the reasons was his opinion, the frequent human corpses, that were washed by the monsoon rains there into the mangroves forests and so the tigers only came to the taste of human flesh.
View attachment 313596

Have you ever heard of him?

Foxi
Indeed , l have heard of this gentleman . However , l have never had the pleasure to meet him . He came to India in 1965 to kill a man eater , l know. However , as your information suggests , he also must have come to India much more than what l knew . His rationale that the human corpses would wash onto the forests is not only possible , but extremely probable as well , now that l think about it. Human corpses , indeed did occasionally wash onto the monsoon forests.
On a related subject , l have been trying to acquire an English translation of his books for the last thirty years .
I have seen the Austrian copy of his books in many a book shop on my trips to Europe over the years .
May l ask you a question ?
Maneater of Abutschmar , the cinema , is it available with English subtitles ?

 

[Bullhunter]

Werner Fend - I have many of his unpublished material in my archive / copyright permission from his wife for later articles - has used mostly 7 or 9 mm rifles and also .44 single action revolvers to hunt many man-eaters in India in the 1960 and 1970.
He was hired from the government / state / town officaly.

He used shootguns also, but only in emergency cases for tiger and leopards.

 

[PSRaghav]

In one of my replies
I have mentioned that my friend Capt Rakshit Sharma's grandfather went for a bird shoot, shot gun in hand , and came back with a tiger
I am well aware of the fact that tigers were shot with 12 bores , 315, 3006 and others
What I am saying is that to legally get a permit
One has to have a minimum 375 mag rifle
I have again spoken to Mr Gurpreet Singh. He will shortly be posting on this group .
I request you to read his comments with an open mind .
I am only trying to clear up a lot of confusion .
1. About Indira Gandhi and the cow urine drinking Hindu masses
2. That all / most imported weapons were confiscated and destroyed
3 . Tiger permits were issued on a 12 bore
4 . All hunting was banned at the launch of Project Tiger in India

If members are open to listen to me and to Mr Gurpreet Singh .
I shall continue
Else . I can shut up and stop posting
Just like I haven't done since I joined this group around five years ago

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

I not once , in my writing ever accused normal "masses" of Hindus drinking cow urine. I only said SOME Hindus practice(d) this .
I will never disrespect a religion as long as l am alive. Another forum member here , named Foxi who never ever met me in person , also witnessed something similar .
About laws and politics , l have said what l needed to say and l tried very hard to be respectful to everyone here , even those who attempt to discredit me or are implying that l killed those tigers illegally with a 12 bore.

 

[PSRaghav]

Talking about my friends grandfather
Late Mr Kewal Sharma booked a red jungle fowl shoot in a shikar block called Lacchiwala Had fished the days shoot and was returning to his car His shot gun loaded with bird shots .
When he heard some movement in the bush .
He turned around and saw a tigress at point blank range. The tigress roared and opened her mouth
The gent put his double barrel in the big cats mouth . Closed his eyes in fear and fired both barrels one after the other
The tiger dropped dead

The gent was allowed to keep the trophy . A permit was issued . But was issued in his friend's name ( for legal purpose) who owned a heavy bore licence

 

[Bullhunter]

May l ask you a question ?
Maneater of Abutschmar , the cinema , is it available with English subtitles ?

Werner Fend has pulished nearly 10 books about tiger hunting, some more about the tiger als an animal (behaviour, biologie, pp.).
As far as I know (I have not looked in my archive), there are "only" translated (short) articles in english. (And some in Indian language).

Parts of his films are also used in english films. Other filmmakers /TV series used his stuff.
I have them on old VHS tapes (but in PAL, not NTSC - USA - or SECAM - parts of India -).

One of his best-know films "lions in the land of the tigers" (about the asian lions and their co-existenses with the tigers) get some prices in other countrys, also in India. This material was - as far as I know - used in some english (UK) TV productions.

 

[PSRaghav]

Mr Rehman
My point is that Project Tiger was not related to being a vegetarian
It was aimed and is aimed at saving the species

 

[PSRaghav]

I mentioned the fantastic migration of tigers from central Asia to different parts of Asia
Today the tiger had vanished from half its former range
The following species of tigers have gone extinct

Bali tiger
Javan tiger
Caspian tiger
And most others are critically endangered

The only place where the tiger is relatively safe
Inspite of the tremendous biotic pressure
Is in India
All thank to Project Tiger

 

[Bullhunter]

2. That all imported weapons were confiscated and destroyed
3 . Tiger permits were issued on a 12 bore

Sir, nothing against you, but in many german books exactly this is published.
Written in different times and from different authors.
(The writer allways hunted in India from 1880 - 1972, Werner Fend and some others in later years also, but mostly then on man-eaters, as there are no more - or less - shikaris witch can do the hunt (for different reasons: mostly no more guns, no good guns or no amunition).

 

[Bullhunter]

The only place where the tiger is relatively safe
Inspite of the tremendous biotic pressure
Is in India
All thank to Project Tiger

Thank you, sir.
That is great.