Letting someone borrow your rifle and sighting in

[curtism1234]

I have borrowed a number of rifles and all I feel that I needed to do is a couple of dry fires to get a feel for the trigger

I agree, that's all I need to look at before hunting with a borrowed gun unless shots are long. You don't need to shoot a gun if you're sitting in a tree with 50 yards being a long shot.

Growing up, we had 4-5 people sharing 2 rifles. Heck, 3 of us when antelope hunting at the same time with 1 rifle - never had a problem but we all shot the gun before hand at 100 yards.

For me, there needs to be a trust factor in place though. You need to know the mounts/rings are tight, the right ammunition is being shot, etc. Do I trust Elmer Fudd's word and rifle? No. Do I trust my dad's? Yes

 

[mdwest]

2 different people will see the same object/target differently through the same optic.. how much different things will be depends on the person, the optic, and the distance.

The parallax effect is essentially an optical illusion where there is displacement in the apparent position of an object viewed along two different lines of sight...

If 2 different people look through the same optic along even a minimally different line of sight (different cheek weld.. different angle of the face/eye in relationship to the optic, etc..) they will see things differently, and place the center of the reticle differently when trying to hit the center of the target..

Many/most quality optics are manufactured and set at the factory to be parallax free at 100 yards/meters (depending on manufacturer).. or at least as parallax free as they can be, depending on how they are mounted, what they are mounted to, etc..etc.. so unless there is a huge difference in the 2 different people that are shooting the same rifle, there should be minimal difference in where the round lands on the target assuming all things are equal (same ammo, same conditions, etc..etc..)..

But stretch that distance out a bit.. or get two very different people behind the same gun.. and you very probably will see a difference in POI between two shooters that swear they had the exact same sight picture when they squeezed the trigger..

 

[lcq]

2 different people will see the same object/target differently through the same optic.. how much different things will be depends on the person, the optic, and the distance.

The parallax effect is essentially an optical illusion where there is displacement in the apparent position of an object viewed along two different lines of sight...

If 2 different people look through the same optic along even a minimally different line of sight (different cheek weld.. different angle of the face/eye in relationship to the optic, etc..) they will see things differently, and place the center of the reticle differently when trying to hit the center of the target..

Many/most quality optics are manufactured and set at the factory to be parallax free at 100 yards/meters (depending on manufacturer).. or at least as parallax free as they can be, depending on how they are mounted, what they are mounted to, etc..etc.. so unless there is a huge difference in the 2 different people that are shooting the same rifle, there should be minimal difference in where the round lands on the target assuming all things are equal (same ammo, same conditions, etc..etc..)..

But stretch that distance out a bit.. or get two very different people behind the same gun.. and you very probably will see a difference in POI between two shooters that swear they had the exact same sight picture when they squeezed the trigger..

Bingo, Parallax beyond the usual 100yd range can make a very big difference. Head position, cheek weld etc all conspire to move the poi for each shooter

 

[Scott Slough]

I disagree with the parallax arguments. Parallax is 1) not idiosyncratic (or unidirectional) such that it would explain different POI for different shooters. It will expand the dispersion of a group, but will not predict or justify you shooting another individuals well-sighted in rifle at a different POI (the original OP's question) (parallax is no respecter of persons) and 2) the parallax is WAY less than most people imagine. With a 40mm tube, parallax only creates about .6 MOA difference at 800 yards which again would only expand a 1 MOA rifle to a 1.6 MOA rifle and would not affect the POI.

There is ONE scenario that will explain some posters anecdotes (my significant other has a different POI than I on the same gun) ... opposite eye dominance for an inexperienced shooter. If an inexperienced shooter just shoots the gun they are handed and they have a dominant opposite eye, the brain does in fact change the visual image from the eye to attempt to match its historical eye dominance which does create a different POI. But this still does not answer the OP original question ... if someone hands me a well-sighted in rifle do I need to shoot it to check and see if it has a different POI.

I did assume that the OP was in fact an experienced shooter who had already solved the possible opposite eye dominance problem if it existed. I promise you that if you borrow any rifle from me it will be 1 inch high at 100 yards ... if you get anything different it is YOUR fault and not the rifle. Conversely, if you loan me a rifle that is properly sighted in, I will be within the average MOA of the rifle of your POI (I will be within 1 inch of your 1 MOA rifle POI).

 

[Spooksar]

I used the PH's rifle on my second trip to RSA fired one shot dead on, it made me feel that things where good. Last year we had a klipspringer at 270 yards, I had a 9.3 x66, the PH handed me his 338 Win Mag one shot and it was dead. I don't know if it makes a difference but I feel better it I try the rifle before hand. On the other hand my PH grabbed the 9.3x66 and shot a jacket at 75 yards and it was a perfect shot. *

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I used the PH's rifle on my second trip to RSA fired one shot dead on, it made me feel that things where good. Last year we had a klipspringer at 270 yards, I had a 9.3 x66, the PH handed me his 338 Win Mag one shot and it was dead. I don't know if it makes a difference but I feel better it I try the rifle before hand. On the other hand my PH grabbed the 9.3x66 and shot a jacket at 75 yards and it was a perfect shit

A perfect what?

 

[siml]

Bottom line, a few dollars spent firing a few shots at target, could save you 1000$s on real animals.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I disagree with the parallax arguments. Parallax is 1) not idiosyncratic (or unidirectional) such that it would explain different POI for different shooters. It will expand the dispersion of a group, but will not predict or justify you shooting another individuals well-sighted in rifle at a different POI (the original OP's question) (parallax is no respecter of persons) and 2) the parallax is WAY less than most people imagine. With a 40mm tube, parallax only creates about .6 MOA difference at 800 yards which again would only expand a 1 MOA rifle to a 1.6 MOA rifle and would not affect the POI.

There is ONE scenario that will explain some posters anecdotes (my significant other has a different POI than I on the same gun) ... opposite eye dominance for an inexperienced shooter. If an inexperienced shooter just shoots the gun they are handed and they have a dominant opposite eye, the brain does in fact change the visual image from the eye to attempt to match its historical eye dominance which does create a different POI. But this still does not answer the OP original question ... if someone hands me a well-sighted in rifle do I need to shoot it to check and see if it has a different POI.

I did assume that the OP was in fact an experienced shooter who had already solved the possible opposite eye dominance problem if it existed. I promise you that if you borrow any rifle from me it will be 1 inch high at 100 yards ... if you get anything different it is YOUR fault and not the rifle. Conversely, if you loan me a rifle that is properly sighted in, I will be within the average MOA of the rifle of your POI (I will be within 1 inch of your 1 MOA rifle POI).

I have no idea why my wife shot 2" higher than me. Eye dominance? Maybe, I could buy that. Scope parallax? Have no idea. But there's also a bunch of other variables that seem to me are being dismissed and/or ignored.

When it comes down to it, I don't really care what the reason for it is. And if possible I care less than that whose fault it may be. I sure am not going to tell my wife she's doing something wrong when she's shooting good groups. Even if I was stupid enough to tell her she's doing something wrong, I have no freaking clue what it is and therefore what to tell her to do to correct it. I'm just going to adjust her scope for her "erroneous" shooting style and let her go kill stuff.

As Simon says, when shooting a rifle that's not yours, sending a few rounds down range can easily save a lot of trouble in the field.

 

[Spooksar]

A perfect what?

Shot auto correct on Ipad

 

[petrusg]

Ive had many clients shoot with my rifle and have had a fair share of clients shooting a 2 to 3 inches differently from my sighting.... some of them shoot the same but most of them shoot differently. And its not like they shoot all over, they usually shoot good groups so go figure.
Always take a couple of shots at the range when it is not your rifle, even if it is your rifle take it to the range!
Any good PH will ask you to shoot your rifle before hunting with it anyway

 

[Scott Slough]

Even if I was stupid enough to tell her she's doing something wrong, I have no freaking clue what it is and therefore what to tell her to do to correct it. I'm just going to adjust her scope for her "erroneous" shooting style and let her go kill stuff.

Smart man!

 

[Jfet]

Shot auto correct on Ipad

With your rifle or was it a borrowed one?

 

[JimP]

You could ask the same question on why does my rifle shoot differently when I hold it than it does when it is in a lead sled?

While the rifle should shoot the the same POI when you take all the human factors out of it there is one problem, the person pulling the trigger is human and all humans hold and shoot rifles differently. Perhaps not by much but enough to change the POI.

I can take my .340 Weatherby and shoot sub MOA groups with it all day long, but hand it to my brother in law and he can't hit the broad side of a barn. A few years ago he wanted to use it on a elk hunt in Utah. I suggested that he take a couple of shots with it but he said that if it was sighted in he will be fine. Well, a couple of days into the hunt we jumped a herd of elk and a nice 6x6 bull was in them, he ran off about 70 yards and stopped and stood in the open. I thought that we had meat on the table. When he started to shoot I was wondering if he was shooting at another elk as this one just stood there without moving. He took 5 shots at it before the bull decided that he had had enough and headed for the timber. My brother in law said that something must be wrong with the scope so I took a shot at a full water bottle at 100 yards and the can blew up, he tried it and missed it by a good 2 feet. He just can't shoot that rifle.

 

[Red Leg]

You could ask the same question on why does my rifle shoot differently when I hold it than it does when it is in a lead sled?

While the rifle should shoot the the same POI when you take all the human factors out of it there is one problem, the person pulling the trigger is human and all humans hold and shoot rifles differently. Perhaps not by much but enough to change the POI.

I can take my .340 Weatherby and shoot sub MOA groups with it all day long, but hand it to my brother in law and he can't hit the broad side of a barn. A few years ago he wanted to use it on a elk hunt in Utah. I suggested that he take a couple of shots with it but he said that if it was sighted in he will be fine. Well, a couple of days into the hunt we jumped a herd of elk and a nice 6x6 bull was in them, he ran off about 70 yards and stopped and stood in the open. I thought that we had meat on the table. When he started to shoot I was wondering if he was shooting at another elk as this one just stood there without moving. He took 5 shots at it before the bull decided that he had had enough and headed for the timber. My brother in law said that something must be wrong with the scope so I took a shot at a full water bottle at 100 yards and the can blew up, he tried it and missed it by a good 2 feet. He just can't shoot that rifle.

I suspect that any change in POI had nothing to do with respect to sight alignment and everything to do with a monumental flinch.

 

[Velo Dog]

Hi Jim,

Paraphrasing:
"This guy claims that he's lent his rifles to DOZENS of other shooters, ranging down to INEXPERIENCED SCHOOL GIRLS, who then have bagged deer at EIGHT HUNDRED yards with one shot" as he put it, etc., etc.

The chap who made these ridiculous claims is obviously lying, and I would not bother responding to anything he has to say.

There are quite a few immature fellows posting in various forums who, evidently stay busy eating bubble gum flavored ice cream and playing on Mommy's computer, instead of doing something constructive with their youthful spare time and energy.

He clearly is one of those cold souls who can not know either victory or defeat.

One of the several things I enjoy about AfricaHunting.com is that most members here are thoroughly experienced and are happy to share their well grounded opinions.

And so conversely, there is very little nonsense to sort through, when reading within this forum.

Cheers,
Paul.

 

[Clayton]

Well said Paul.

 

[Rolf_T]

Next time at the range you can try this yourself. Shoot sitting in the bench vs laying down with a rest vs on the sticks. The POI will often change a little.
I'll always choose to shoot a couple of shots on 100m to be sure where a borrowed rifle impacts

 

[boldo 42]

I had a discussion recently with someone on another forum and want to see if there is any sort of consensus here. The question is whether, when borrowing someone else's rifle, you should always check the scope sighting to find out where it shoots for you.

I say that everyone's cheek-weld is different, everyone holds their eye at a slightly different position, and grips the stock in a different way, so all of these variables mean that a rifle perfectly sighted-in for one shooter is not likely to be perfectly-sighted in for anyone else.

The other guy says I'm full of it. Once a rifle is sighted-in, he claims, it's sighted-in for everyone. Anyone can pick up anyone else's rifle and hit the bullseye. This guy claims that he's lent his rifles to dozens of other shooters, ranging down to inexperienced school-girls, who then killed deer at 800 yards with one shot without adjusting the sights.

I'm not interested in talking about his ridiculous yardage claims, just the issue of whether a rifle sighted-in for me would also be sighted-in for you. In other words, would you borrow someone's rifle and use it without test-firing it first?

No , my wife and i have 2 different views , if i have to use her rifles i have to adjust to suit me.....and if your shooting deer at 800 yrds that's not hunting.

 

[JGRaider]

I disagree with the parallax arguments. Parallax is 1) not idiosyncratic (or unidirectional) such that it would explain different POI for different shooters. It will expand the dispersion of a group, but will not predict or justify you shooting another individuals well-sighted in rifle at a different POI (the original OP's question) (parallax is no respecter of persons) and 2) the parallax is WAY less than most people imagine. With a 40mm tube, parallax only creates about .6 MOA difference at 800 yards which again would only expand a 1 MOA rifle to a 1.6 MOA rifle and would not affect the POI.

There is ONE scenario that will explain some posters anecdotes (my significant other has a different POI than I on the same gun) ... opposite eye dominance for an inexperienced shooter. If an inexperienced shooter just shoots the gun they are handed and they have a dominant opposite eye, the brain does in fact change the visual image from the eye to attempt to match its historical eye dominance which does create a different POI. But this still does not answer the OP original question ... if someone hands me a well-sighted in rifle do I need to shoot it to check and see if it has a different POI.

I did assume that the OP was in fact an experienced shooter who had already solved the possible opposite eye dominance problem if it existed. I promise you that if you borrow any rifle from me it will be 1 inch high at 100 yards ... if you get anything different it is YOUR fault and not the rifle. Conversely, if you loan me a rifle that is properly sighted in, I will be within the average MOA of the rifle of your POI (I will be within 1 inch of your 1 MOA rifle POI).

Well said Scott, and I could not agree more. Parallax is way overrated/overstated, exactly as you described.

 

[dobber]

Just throwing this out there and i know there will be some variables but same gun, same set up, same bench, same time of day, same everything, but now switch hands and shoot with opposite hand and eye.
Everything but left hand vs right hand being equal should be same POI no?