Let’s be honest….accuracy off the sticks

[One Day...]

Let’s be honest….accuracy off the sticks ???​

OK, I will bite...

• Tripod: 3 MOA with regular monthly practice
• Quadpod: 2 MOA with regular monthly practice
• Bipod (prone): 1 MOA with regular monthly practice

And we might as well add:

• Offhand (standing): 6 to 8 MOA inconsistently for me (some do better)
• Offhand (kneeling): 4 to 6 MOA consistently for me (some do better)

Field application

If we consider that the smaller species of deer, antelopes, gazelles, etc. have a vital area of approximately 6", this means:

• Tripod: 200 yds shot with reasonable confidence
• Quadpod: 300 yds shot with high confidence
• Bipod (prone): technically 600 yds shot, but this is shooting, not hunting, so let us say 400+ yds shot with great confidence (e.g. Vaal Rhebok in the Karoo)
• Offhand standing: avoid on PG!!! 50 yds on DG
• Offhand kneeling: 100 yds

My own take on "blogging stolen valor", or "truth in posting": if there is no pic it does not exist!

So, these are my 100 yds training plates: 5", 4" and 3". I shoot weekly (I have my own 100 yds range).

My current weekly training kit is a R8 with .22 LR barrel, Leica glass, Eley Club ammo, and carbon 4 Stable Sticks. Note that I removed the rear stoke stop on the .22 LR magazine insert so as to not acquire a short-stroking habit.

Once every 2 or 3 months the years when I do not go to Africa, and every month the years where I go to Africa, I used to practice with .223 Rem on a 6" plate out to 300 yds. I now practice on various plate sizes at various distances (see below) because I will take longer shots on a Kudu than on a Duiker.

Note that my training has evolved. For example, in the above picture I had not yet discovered the quadpod, and I was using a BogPod tripod.

As another example, before converting to the R8, I was using a Winchester 52 and my home-made tripod to shoot a 6" plate at 100 yards with cheap Remington Thunderbolt:

Here is what I learned along the way:

I shot competitive .22 LR Three Positions and English Match (prone) for years, and I went through regimental sniper training, so I have known how to shoot rested (emphasis: rested) for a long time.

This was critical as rule #1, 2 and 3 are: the fundamentals, the fundamentals, the fundamentals! By that I mean proper position, body control, breathing control, trigger control, recoil control, follow up, etc.

But...

• Before going to Africa I had never shot standing (emphasis standing) off the sticks. It showed. I did not loose any animal during my first safari, but I was not proud of my shooting and it often took a second shot.
• After this first safari, it took me a year shooting about once a month to become a consistent (5 series of 5 hits, every miss resets the count, i.e. 25 hits in a row) 6 MOA tripod shooter. Yep, 6 MOA !?!?!? OMG, that sounds terrible, right!?!?!? But think about the practical application: a 6 MOA shot means hitting a 6" plate at 100 yds, or a 12" plate at 200 yds. This covers 90%+ of big game hunting situations. Believe me, PHs would be ecstatic if all clients were 6 MOA shooters and held their shots to 200 yds...
• It took me another years shooting about once a month off the tripod to reach the limit of the Thunderbolt ammo (around 4 MOA). I stopped shooting the 6" plate at 100 yds with the .22, it had become too easy.
• I spent a lot more time shooting a .223 at 100, 200 and 300 yds off the tripod. It took me a few months to hit most of the times (but not all the times) the 6" plate at 200 (3 MOA), and sometimes at 300 yds (2 MOA).
• Then 4 things happened more or less together: I converted to the R8; I moved to 1 MOA Eley club ammo; I moved to quadsticks; I built our retirement home on 20 acres and I set my own 100 yds shooting range. Back to .22 LR, but this time on 5", 4" and, most of the time, 3" plates, and I started looking for a 2" plate...
  • I will speculate comfortably that the Winchester 52 would hold 1+ MOA with the Eley ammo (but I never tried) so moving to the R8 may not be the primary factor, although I see immense benefits to always shooting exclusively the same rifle, from .22 to .458 Lott in my case, for the last couple years, and I am sure that this translates into higher accuracy. It certainly feels like an extension of my arm...
  • There is no arguing that one cannot shoot 3 MOA or 2 MOA with 4 MOA ammo, so upgrading from the 4 MOA Thunderbolt to the 1 MOA Eley Club was critical for .22 LR 100 yds practice on smaller plates.
  • I regularly confirm to myself by continuing to shoot occasionally off the tripod that the quadpod shrinks my groups by at least 1 MOA.
• I occasionally (every couple months or so) get to BLM or USFS prairie land, set plates at various ranges: 6" at 200 (3 MOA shot) & 250 yds (2.4 MOA shot); 8" at 300 (2.7 MOA shot) & 350 yds (2.3 MOA shot); 10" at 400 (2.5 MOA shot) & 450 yds (2.2 MOA shot); 12" at 500 (2.4 MOA shot) & 550 yds (2.2 MOA shot), and I bolt either the .257 Wby or .300 Wby barrels with their dedicated Zeiss BDC scopes and fire 8 rounds off the quad sticks. It is a rare case when I miss... but it does happen...

So, yes, it is possible to shoot reliably 2 MOA out to 500+ yds from the quad sticks, but it requires consistent practice. Most modern hunting rifles with decent glass and modern ammo will easily hold 2 MOA, so equipment is generally not the limitation. Do not waste centerfire ammo until you shot consistently 3 MOA with a quality .22 bolt rifle (avoid semi autos that ineluctably lead to spray & praying) and decent .22 ammo, and it helps tremendously to invest a little bit in steel targets as feedback is immediate and without appeal (it either rings or it does not). At least one stand and a set of 6", 5", 4" 3" plates to accompany your progress (a $200 investment on Amazon), then 8", 10" and 12" plates to shoot centerfire farther (another $250 investment on Amazon).

I am probably over invested, but the kids and friends love to take advantage of it, and it makes for wonderful and often eye opening afternoons for friends who "shoot their elk at 800 yards" (hmmmm, hmmm) and come to discover what it takes to actually ring 12" steel at 500 yards (never mind 800...).

 

[One Day...]

I have an inability to shoot confidently from a tripod. I just can’t get the consistent accuracy. However I have practiced to be fast with my 4 stable sticks (quad sticks). I can confidently shoot a 2” group at 100 yards and a 6” group at 300 yards and sometimes better than that.

And this is no BS CBeck, I do the same. 2 MOA off the quad sticks is quite achievable. Dare I say: easier than I thought!
See above post.
Transition to the quad sticks, you will shave at least 1 MOA from the tripod. But keep in mind that learning the tripod requires a lot of practice. It took me a year and a few bricks of .22 ammo (I would guess 5,000+ rounds) to shrink from 6 MOA down to 3 MOA on tripod. You may perhaps shrink from 6 MOA on tripod to 3 MOA on quadpod, who knows, as 375Fox says: some folks simply are not comfortable on tripod. It is not my cup of tea either, although I learned to use the tripod down to 3 MOA, and the process of shrinking from 6 MOA down to 3 MOA on the tripod taught me a lot about shooting off the sticks at large.
The secret is simple: one learns how to shoot with a .22 LR. Centerfire rifles hide under recoil the shooting form mistakes that are glaringly obvious with a .22. If your crosshair is located 6" right of the point of aim at 100 yds when the shot goes, you will see it with a .22, not with a centerfire... And no one will shoot 5,000 centerfire rounds per year in training...
You can do it

 

[375Fox]

And this is no BS CBeck, I do the same. 2 MOA off the quad sticks is quite achievable. Dare I say: easier than I thought!
See above post.
Transition to the quad sticks, you will shave at least 1 MOA from the tripod. But keep in mind that learning the tripod requires a lot of practice. It took me a year and a few bricks of .22 ammo (I would guess 5,000+ rounds) to shrink from 6 MOA down to 3 MOA on tripod. You may perhaps shrink from 6 MOA on tripod to 3 MOA on quadpod, who knows, as 375Fox says: some folks simply are not comfortable on tripod. It is not my cup of tea either, although I learned to use the tripod down to 3 MOA, and the process of shrinking from 6 MOA down to 3 MOA on the tripod taught me a lot about shooting off the sticks at large.
The secret is simple: one learns how to shoot with a .22 LR. Centerfire rifles hide under recoil the shooting form mistakes that are glaringly obvious with a .22. If your crosshair is located 6" right of the point of aim at 100 yds when the shot goes, you will see it with a .22, not with a centerfire... And no one will shoot 5,000 centerfire rounds per year in training...
You can do it

I took the same approach but with loaded dummy rounds so I couldn’t see or feel the difference in the bullets when loading them. Recoil covers up a lot of bad habits hunters don’t realize they have, but are glaringly obvious when the trigger breaks on a dummy you thought was a live round.

 

[Sika98k]

Yes

I use the Viperflex journey quad sticks for a couple of reasons. The legs comprise of 3 pieces. The centre piece is carbon. In the winter the carbon does not transmit the cold as much as the aluminium.
When travelling they break down and fit in my rifle case with a bit of judicious packing. I really would not want to be without them. I find the old 3 sticks bound together with an inner tube of a bicycle or similar to be not very confidence inspiring.
Quad sticks are a far more stable platform to shoot from.

 

[Pirkan]

I enjoy practicing with a 22lr from sticks and with random improvised supports shooting at clays and some steel targets like in the attached pictures so I don't have to take time from shooting to check paper. At around 200 meters I can make repeated hits but definitely not 100% on the steel and iirc they're 5-7 cm in diameter. For full power rifles I mainly shoot at the moose ranges but I think that's only a thing in the Nordics. This type of practice seems to work well and I managed to hit a baboon at 422 meters of sticks and missed ~20 cm to the left of one at ~850 meters when I was in south Africa.

 

[Sabre]

I would give another vote for trying the GunStix. As has been stated they are quad sticks and I really enjoy them.

I did not care for the 4 Stable Sticks that @375Fox is talking about. I can definitely see why some people would like them and I think it will certainly come down to personal preference. To me, the pros of the 4 Stable Sticks are that they were very lightweight (I got the carbon fiber), they were very thin and low profile. For me, the cons were that they seemed much more wobbly (flexed more), I didn't care for the way they assembled and disassembled (compared to the GunStix), and I didn't like the lack of adjustability overall.

For the GunStix, I like the adjustability, I felt like they were less wobbly (not flexing), and I liked that they didn't need to come apart to collapse them easily for travel. What I didn't like as much about them is that you have to be very sure your adjustable legs are tight (this isn't difficult once you figure it out), and I noticed the small screws on them rusted quickly. I thought this was nuts that they didn't use weather resistant screws such as stainless.

A tripod is inherently less accurate than the quad sticks because it doesn't stabilize the stock of the gun. The trade off is that the quad sticks are inherently less easy to follow moving game and for follow up shots.

 

[Sideshow]

Interesting thread! I’ve a pair of primos trigger sticks. Never shot off sticks before I came to the uk. The bush in NZ was just too thick to also be carrying this as well as a rifle. Also just not in the hunting culture. So was interesting to start using them. Won’t stalk with out them now.
I’ll have to try these quad sticks those that have them in the above posts seem well pleased.

 

[GuttormG]

But before I left for the hunt I burned through a couple hundred 22 Lr rounds

I try to get through 2-3 bricks of 22s during the sommer, most of it at steel spinners.
Good, fun and cheap practice.

 

[Mountaineer]

I’ll admit I’m not a great shot off anything even though I shoot a lot. I’m group about 3 inches off sticks. We use the sticks with the front and back support. I also take a bipod and shoot prone when I can. I owe it to the animals to be as accurate as possible and I can cut my MOA in half prone.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I’ll admit I’m not a great shot off anything even though I shoot a lot. I’m group about 3 inches off sticks. We use the sticks with the front and back support. I also take a bipod and shoot prone when I can. I owe it to the animals to be as accurate as possible and I can cut my MOA in half prone.

Yes, prone off a bipod is deadly, but it's relatively rare to encounter a situation where it can be deployed. Any blade of grass in front of the muzzle will deflect the shot. Have you tried sitting position? Much quicker to set up, more elevation above ground cover, relatively easy to readjust, and very stable, especially if sling is used. And no bulky apparatus hanging on the front end of the rifle.

 

[WAB]

One thing I have found is that the trigger becomes much more critical as the stability of your rest decreases. I can shoot reasonably well with a crappy trigger from the bench. Off sticks it is much more difficult to do. The Number One I pictured earlier has a Jard trigger set at a pound and a half. Put a three and a half pound trigger on a light rifle like that and my accuracy would degrade significantly off sticks.

 

[Mountaineer]

I have and like it better than off sticks. My mode of thinking on every shot is get as close to the ground as possible. My times that means shooting off sticks, other times it’s sitting, but given the opportunity I go prone. You should have seen the look on my PH’s face when I went prone with my 458 win mag.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I have and like it better than off sticks. My mode of thinking on every shot is get as close to the ground as possible. My times that means shooting off sticks, other times it’s sitting, but given the opportunity I go prone. You should have seen the look on my PH’s face when I went prone with my 458 win mag.

Shooting a 458 prone is a good way to hurt yourself! What look did your PH express? Aghast?

 

[fourfive8]

Also, as O’Connor wrote, “Use a rest and hit”. Over the years I’ve used all manner of rests and shooting positions for steadier hold… so much so I can’t remember doing it any other way. Always used a set of short, wood, forked bipod sticks when calling coyotes from sitting position. Longest shot I ever took (hit on the button) in Africa was sitting behind a regular wood tripod sticks splayed wide open… oryx 260 yards. I shot my first buffalo while laying across the top of a slimy termite mound imbedded in the middle of a thorn bush- whatever works.

 

[BeeMaa]

One thing I have found is that the trigger becomes much more critical as the stability of your rest decreases. I can shoot reasonably well with a crappy trigger from the bench. Off sticks it is much more difficult to do. The Number One I pictured earlier has a Jard trigger set at a pound and a half. Put a three and a half pound trigger on a light rifle like that and my accuracy would degrade significantly off sticks.

The stock trigger on a Blaser R8 is just over 2 lbs and I believe perfect for hunting. Between the way it breaks and doing dry fire practice to be able to hone our skills…it’s made a huge difference in our accuracy.

 

[Philip Glass]

The “stolen valor“ thread got me thinking about accuracy and lies, “off the sticks”

Of course, shot placement is always important and, of course, in Africa shooting off the sticks is going to be important.

I see a lot of hunters practicing before their trips and stressing immensely over their group size. I think a lot of the nervousness and worry is because of Internet snipers.

I see a lot of gentlemen on this forum, claiming impressive feats with rifles shooting free hand or off sticks.

I practice shooting at a silhouette that has a 6 inch center cut out. On my range at the house which is about 120 yards where my tripod sticks are set up, I’m good for 8 or 9 out of 10 inside that 6 inch inch steel. The others land within 8 inches typically… 4 inches from the bull’s-eye.

Maybe I’m a horrible marksman, I don’t know, but I see a lot of guys claiming they are shooting tiny groups at 100, 200, 300 yards off the sticks.

Now the way I see it a good rifle for hunting purposes is shooting a 1.5” group or thereabouts hopefully less at 100 yards off the bench with a solid rest.

That’s 3 inches at 200 yards off a bench with a solid rest… So, my question is this how many of you are actually shooting those kinds of groups off of sticks? Let’s be honest.

With quad sticks it can be done. Tripod is much harder. I like your term internet snipers!

 

[BryceM]

One more thing I’ll add. I bought the Blaser version of their quad sticks. They’re pricey, but they come with an innovative pivoting grip on the front that will let you traverse left and right a bit. It’s much more useful than regular quad sticks in that way.

To get them in the US I had to order them directly from Germany. They took a while to show up, but no worries in the end.

 

[CBeck]

Another question on the quad stick users….let me see how to ask this….on flat ground I get it. You set the back and front height and slight rocking forward or back changes elevation slightly.

But is it not figity to adjust in more varied terrain. Seems it would either make you crouch or stand on tip toes. I know I must be missing something….?

 

[WAB]

The stock trigger on a Blaser R8 is just over 2 lbs and I believe perfect for hunting. Between the way it breaks and doing dry fire practice to be able to hone our skills…it’s made a huge difference in our accuracy.

The Blaser is a fantastic platform in all regards. About every six months or so I get the bug to liquidate some safe queens and buy one. You’re not helping.

 

[deewayne2003]

You may be on something I just went out to test my theory. This is a five shot group at 120 yards off the tripod.

I didn’t measure, but I’m gonna say about 2.75- 3 inches that’s a 3 inch cut out

View attachment 666985

All the accuracy you’ll ever need…..

I have a dream of making a practice shooting course on my farm; think of it like a sporting clays coarse but for rifles with steel plates.