Leopard killed inappropriately in Namibia

[Lrntolive]

@BRICKBURN, regarding your last post, I completely agree, and this is why I said we shouldn't be so quick to judge. Those of us in western nations and Europe who haven't had to deal with growing up around predators or nature in general are too far removed and pass judgement too quickly. This is the same type of reaction antis have.

This may look cruel to us, but we don't live the lives they do.

Do I believe it was in poor taste to video it? Yes. Do I believe a farmer or rancher has the right to protect his family, friends and livestock? Yes.

By condemning these people, we're no better than the anti-hunters, and we do ourselves a disservice by alienating the farmers and ranchers. Instead, use this as a teachable moment and convince the farmer/rancher to allow hunting on their property. Show them the benefit outweighs the negative. We gain them as allies to our cause.

 

[BRICKBURN]

The men in the video are working at an established Breeding Station and are not likely the "poor" farmer envisaged in many peoples minds. No matter who they may be, the "conflicts" with wild animals are occurring daily and if there is no responsive plan in place, this type of "conflict resolution" will continue happening daily.

I do not see the Humane Society setting up a "farmers relief fund" for the families suffering the direct losses.
HUNTERS support the communities.


This REALITY on the ground in Africa is something that has to be taken into consideration when management practices are reviewed, as they are currently under review in RSA.

https://www.africahunting.com/threa...tandards-draft-comment-now.36242/#post-340045

The number of PAC and DCA are not really being addressed in the draft. The draft is being focused on HUNTING. I do not see the research into the other facets of the REALITY of Leopard Management in RSA.
The statistics on the number of PAC/DCA permits?
The POACHING / Farm Managed?

 

[LivingTheDream]

For the hunting community, I think it is better if they are seen as poor farmers. The bottom line is they are protecting their livelihood. It is hard to argue with that, probably shouldn't have filmed it and could have been more humane. I have a feeling the guy who filmed probably didn't even realize that this video would cause outrage.

But the best case would have been to have hunters and hounds available.

 

[Dragan N.]

I would imagine that more leopards and other predators as well are killed via pest control than by trophy hunting. Yet the antis have very little control over this and can't do anything about it. Its easier for PETA, HSUS etc... and those other orgs. to push legislation that bans for example the import of leopard trophies than to ban farmers in Africa from killing problematic leopards. It also doesn't receive the same amount of media coverage.

This, along with poaching, is why when trophy or hunting in general is banned more animals are actually killed- i.e. Kenya. You're also dealing with pretty low levels of enforcement of the laws on the book but the antis are happy because hunting, on paper, is banned even though the reality on the ground is totally different.

@Lrntolive
I largely agree with you but what I don't understand is why not shoot the leopard with a gun, when you have one right there in your hands? Apart from the fact that it is more humane it is also much safer. When you have a dangerous wild animal that is cornered or caught in trap you want to dispatch it as quickly as possible. Animals do break free from traps. The more time you spend around it killing it the greater the likelihood it could break free or bite/grab a hold of someone and cause injury or death.

 

[Lrntolive]

I would imagine that more leopards and other predators as well are killed via pest control than by trophy hunting. Yet the antis have very little control over this and can't do anything about it. Its easier for PETA, HSUS etc... and those other orgs. to push legislation that bans for example the import of leopard trophies than to ban farmers in Africa from killing problematic leopards. It also doesn't receive the same amount of media coverage.

This, along with poaching, is why when trophy or hunting in general is banned more animals are actually killed- i.e. Kenya. You're also dealing with pretty low levels of enforcement of the laws on the book but the antis are happy because hunting, on paper, is banned even though the reality on the ground is totally different.

@Lrntolive
I largely agree with you but what I don't understand is why not shoot the leopard with a gun, when you have one right there in your hands? Apart from the fact that it is more humane it is also much safer. When you have a dangerous wild animal that is cornered or caught in trap you want to dispatch it as quickly as possible. Animals do break free from traps. The more time you spend around it killing it the greater the likelihood it could break free or bite/grab a hold of someone and cause injury or death.

To answer your question about why not just shoot it, I don't have an easy answer. The idea of what is humane is based on variations in how society lives. We have to reflect on how our societies (US and Europe) viewed wildlife 100-200 years ago. We weren't that "humane" to animals then by today's standards.

I'm no expert on the African continent, but I'm guessing that their view of wildlife, especially predators, is probably close to the view of settlers in the early 1800's US. We almost wiped out the majority of our wildlife. Had it not been for hunter conservationists, led by Theodore Roosevelt, we would be devoid of wildlife.

This is why I said it is a teachable moment. Instead of persecuting those landowners, poor or not, we need to be ambassadors and show them there's a better way.

This didn't answer the possibility of them getting hurt by the chance of the leopard getting out of the trap, but I don't believe they were considering that aspect.

 

[enysse]

As much as I love Namibia, their management of wildlife is quite curious some days.

I think one of the main reasons hound hunting was shut down is because of a lot of RSA PHs and hound guys were hunting in Namibia. All they needed was better regulations. And I think it was stupid that people were killing more leopards than they had permits for to export them, again that is regulation issue.

To shoot or kill leopards for no money is dumb.

And now they are not allowing small cats and night critters to be hunted

 

[Lrntolive]

@enysse

I don't believe killing a leopard to protect livestock, friends or family is bad just because a person didn't gain money for it. There is a value that must be weighed, and money is not always the measure of the value.

Helping the people understand the money they could gain allowing hunters to control the population is better than exterminating, but I would not put myself on a high horse when I do not live with those animals or circumstances on a daily basis.

 

[Dragan N.]

To answer your question about why not just shoot it, I don't have an easy answer. The idea of what is humane is based on variations in how society lives. We have to reflect on how our societies (US and Europe) viewed wildlife 100-200 years ago. We weren't that "humane" to animals then by today's standards.

I'm no expert on the African continent, but I'm guessing that their view of wildlife, especially predators, is probably close to the view of settlers in the early 1800's US. We almost wiped out the majority of our wildlife. Had it not been for hunter conservationists, led by Theodore Roosevelt, we would be devoid of wildlife.

This is why I said it is a teachable moment. Instead of persecuting those landowners, poor or not, we need to be ambassadors and show them there's a better way.

This didn't answer the possibility of them getting hurt by the chance of the leopard getting out of the trap, but I don't believe they were considering that aspect.

I definitely understand your point that the view of leopards in Namibia is different than the view of them in North America. But unless they wanted to take the opportunity to "exact revenge" on a leopard- because they fear and/or hate them I can't see why they would kill it in this manner. Or perhaps they are saving $$ by not wasting ammo. But then again the fact they are recording this means they can't be so poor as to not have enough money for a bullet or two when they are able to afford a camera... I'm guessing these guys are probably farm hands so their boss or the owner may have told them not to use bullets or waste them unless absolutely necessary- ie they see a free leopard or one breaks free from a trap. And not to shoot one caught in a trap. If this is the case then id definitely condemn the boss/owner because that's extremely cheap and idiotic.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I'm not bashing or judging them but simply trying to understand or think of a logical explanation as to why they would axe a leopard to death when they had a gun right there- being both the easier and safer option...

 

[Lrntolive]

I definitely understand your point that the view of leopards in Namibia is different than the view of them in North America. But unless they wanted to take the opportunity to "exact revenge" on a leopard- because they fear and/or hate them I can't see why they would kill it in this manner. Or perhaps they are saving $$ by not wasting ammo. But then again the fact they are recording this means they can't be so poor as to not have enough money for a bullet or two when they are able to afford a camera... I'm guessing these guys are probably farm hands so their boss or the owner may have told them not to use bullets or waste them unless absolutely necessary- ie they see a free leopard or one breaks free from a trap. And not to shoot one caught in a trap. If this is the case then id definitely condemn the boss/owner because that's extremely cheap and idiotic.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I'm not bashing or judging them but simply trying to understand or think of a logical explanation as to why they would axe a leopard to death when they had a gun right there- being both the easier and safer option...

We are assuming it is their camera. Too many assumptions and we're quick to judge off a small snippet of video.

 

[Houlainol]

Not exactly poor destitute farmers here. I saw a scoped rifle, this was recorded on a cell phone, and some people were wearing uniforms from some sort of commercial farming operation.

I also think American sensitivities about animals and the overwhelming desire of Americans to keep pets clouds even the judgement of a "hunter". While this is disturbing to all sorts of first world people stuff like this happens on farms all over the planet on a daily basis. Look at the big hissy fit over cecil the lion.

I've seen with my own eyes worse done to humans by other humans without the crying and hand wringing of when it is done to animals. It is clearly a problem when the life of an animal causes more uproar than the life of a human.

 

[K-man]

Every tracker and even the skinners, waitstaff I have seen in Africa had a better/newer cell phone than I do. Even those with old shoes and no laces. I don't think it is the measure of wealth we think it is.

 

[Lance Hopper]

I wonder if this had been Wyoming and it was a herd of sheep or cattle and the big bad wolf, how much of an outcry would there have been. O.K., I know, the greenies would have gone apeshit. In the end, it all boils down to, God gave us dominion over the animals. They are for us, not the other way around. Because one is prettier or tastier, and therefore more valuable than another, does not necessarily make it a higher crime to kill it when it jeopardizes your livelihood. I can not green from the footage the wealth of the people killing the leopard or of their employers. I can only surmise by their vigor and enthusiasm that this was more than just sport to them. I have said this recently on another forum, and I stand by it now, just because it is more difficult, or expensive to hunt, does not automatically place the animal on a higher plane of reverence. I know people that will pay a LOT more money to kill(not hunt) a 200" whitetail than they would ever consider spending on any leopard. I will tell you, so you know where I am coming from, that I consider a doe whitetail a tasty field goat and a mature whitetail buck a rank field goat. I love hunting in Africa as much for the diversity of game as I do for the danger they impose. I can only imagine the daly grind of, I hope some animal has not eaten my livelyhood overnight.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

Here's a crazy idea if you have to do something distasteful and/or illegal: don't video it.

 

[peras]

African culture is much less humane towards animals than the western culture. Especially towards damage causing predators. Whether it is a commercial operation or a subsistance farmer, this is the way it is often dealt with. Compensation though change the minds of these people, thus the value of trophy hunting.
Fully agree with @Bert the Turtle , one should avoid filming these things.

 

[MartyJ]

Let's start with the third paragraph in the bloody press release using the word "hunt".

View attachment 176932

HEADLINES:
Leopard is savaged by dogs then beaten to death with an axe in footage leaked by animal campaigners fighting to stop hunters 'abusing' the
right to kill 'problem animals' in Namibia

Audrey Delsink, director of Humane Society International, said: 'This attack will send shockwaves across Namibia and the world.'

Here is a header for some fundraising on the subject from the same group:
Wildlife advocates aim to increase conservation measures and protect African leopards from American trophy hunters


Leopard is savaged by dogs then beaten to death with an axe in footage leaked by animal campaigners fighting to stop people 'abusing' the right to kill 'problem animals' in Namibia
Here is the attack on Namibian law from the same lot.
"The problem is the provision leaves the door wide open for abuse and suffering, campaigners have said. "

Some "Greenie" who thinks you can legislate your way out of it. THE LAW IS ALREADY THERE. There are laws regarding Problem Animal Control (PAC) or Damage Causing Animals (DCA) are already addressed. You have to apply for Permits, MET various conservation departments.


From the OTHER END:
(You can guess which media source this was posted on)


Stephen Matope It is considered righteous and smart when a European Hunter kills a thousand of Leopards in Africa for Fun&is applauded,rendered a Trophy for that But When An African aggravatedly brutalizes a single stray leopard to death which has been terrorising his peace& destroying his Fortune,"The killing" is considered evil and discredited because it has been done by an African.In Africa if we had a tendence of just killing these Wild animals the way Hunters do I dont think we would be having Such Species existing by now.In our Culture if a Predator has been Killed that has been a threat to People's lives "We consider the Killers as Bravehearted because it's never easy to kill a Predator with sticks and dogs.Such cases are a minority and rare comparing to seasoned Hunting perpetuated by The so called Proffessional Hunters who are thought to be Well deserving Killers of Wild Animals in Our Continent.

Stephen Matope There are Certain places here in Africa where people reside far away from the Game Park attendance like I have stayed in a Country in resort areas where a single stray leopard savaged livestocks and was becoming a very big threat to the Community and the Chief ordered it to be killed for the safety of Livestock and People.Its very easy for People in Other Continents residing in Sky Scrappers to condemn such killings and point them as unjustified.These animals kill before you do

Nkululeko Freedom Kwidini Steven Stephen Matope I really agree with you, there's a place in hwange where by two lions are relying entirely on livestock than anything else, this isn't an old story at all but it's happening today. I'm one of the victims I lost two recently poor as I'm do you think given the opportunity will let the lions go just like that.

I'm just wondering if this wasn't a set up by animal rights activists. Like many of you, I've been to southern African countries before. I've never seen an indigenous person with a video camera. Very, very few have cell phones because of no repeaters in the bush.
This seems like a snow job to put another black eye on hunting.
Again, it's my opinion, but this looks to be another bullshit anti-hunting propaganda piece like the one shown on CBS long ago titled "Guns of Autumn".
Another blatant hatchet job by the left.

 

[jeff]

Just about everyone in Namibia has a cell phone

 

[Michael Dean]

This video can be used as a learning tool. By convincing government authorities that controlled hunting can take this terrible outcome into a situation where hunting can become an effective tool where the farmer is well compensated by contacting authorities an allowing a hunt to be benificial for everyone.

Change for the good can happen, it just takes individuals willing to put the time and effort to bring about constructive change. The government, the farmer and the hunting community can all come out ahead, we just have to take the first step and get involved.

Private hunting concessions throughout South Africa did not come about overnight. It took years of struggle by people who saw the potential to change the mindset of government and local citizens that game animals were a viable commodity that could become a viable income for thousands and the best long term guarantee for game animals survival. These leopards can become viable commodities as well, we need to raise our voice and reach out to the Government.