Legal Victory For Safari Club International And America's Hunters

[rookhawk]

(1) That's not decided in the case, but i suspect they will if they can get an "interest" in your application, otherwise how are they, going to get enough information on the species as a whole to make their arguments.

(2) All these decisions keep lawyers employed. (2a) Looking back I guess I should have took Administrative law in School, then I could live in the "Beltway" being fully employed.

Thanks @wesheltonj , esquire. (didn't know you were a JD)

So the million-dollar question: How will the anti's gain access to case-by-case permit applications to "dox" the applicant since Lion-Leopard-Elephant do not have a comment period or publication in the Federal Register? Would they (antis) have to use FOIA as the means to glean permit application info, then expend urgent resources to dispute an application and provide countering data to USFWS? By the time the FOIA reply occurs, it may be too late to act or they may have days to counter the data supplied in applications. (good for the hunter)

 

[tigris115]

Aren't there measures to prevent antis doxxing hunters just for applying for a USFWS permit?

 

[rookhawk]

Aren't there measures to prevent antis doxxing hunters just for applying for a USFWS permit?

I'm aware of none. An astute attorney *might* be able to form an LLC and then apply for approvals based upon an application from that LLC in order to protect the identity of the applicant, but you'd need to hire a lawyer to find out if that's legally possible and whether you can conceal the contents of all the other applications you needed, or hold title to CITES and hunting licenses in that Corporate name as well. (doubt it) This is specifically for applications that get publicly posted in the Federal Register. A cursory look shows the applicants are usually applying for Oribi and Black Faced Impala import permits by name/address. It doesn't appear that Lion/Elephant/Leopard were published in the Federal Register for public comment prior to USFWS approval, but unsure if that will change if/when/if the USFWS reviews pending import permit applications for the aforementioned.

If the privacy of the applicant is lost by publication, or by surrender to the anti's via FOIA requests, the entire endeavor is done for good. The only people dumb or courageous enough to reveal their identity to attempt to get an import permit would be that narrow group of hunters that are A.) Super Rich with their own businesses that are immune from public outrage destroying their companies, B.) So armed to the teeth that they would relish someone attempting to do them harm on their large ranch/compound, C.) That don't worry about risks to their family or heirs or have none, and D.) Are particularly excited about going to ideological war with the anti's and the uninformed general public.

For a good case study on what the risks are related to the public knowing about your hunting and import permits, we might want to ask @Philip Glass who has stuck his neck on the line to communicate his interests and values to the general public. Phil, have you been "Doxxed" since you've applied for permits or appeared in the movie "Trophy"?

 

[wesheltonj]

Being "doxxed" is the least of the problems. It will be the legal cost that you are going to have to pay to my brethren that will eat you alive.

 

[rookhawk]

Being "doxxed" is the least of the problems. It will be the legal cost that you are going to have to pay to my brethren that will eat you alive.

Surely $10k to push the paperwork around for such an endeavor, but cheaper than medical care for a pipe-bomb injury or getting fired from your left-leaning employer for hunting.

 

[Saul]

I am highly reticent to post any personal information anywhere for fear of being "doxxed" or whatever you call it. I am rather envious of those on here who can do so without fear of retribution from the antis.

I am by no means an expert on hunting permit or CITES law, but I doubt it would be possible to apply without revealing your name. Even as an LLC, you would most likely have to disclose the principal.

 

[tigris115]

There really should be something that ensures that if I do apply for an import permit so that I don't need to worry about committing suicide via a broken beer bottle to the throat.

 

[rookhawk]

There really should be something that ensures that if I do apply for an import permit so that I don't need to worry about committing suicide via a broken beer bottle to the throat.

Here's an example of what the public sees to start:

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2003/12/18/03-31212/receipt-of-applications-for-permit

I picked one of many, that one from 2003. Those are the names, permits, and people. Were they zookeepers? Museum Curators? Were the animals alive? Dead specimens? Taxidermy? It varies as you can see, but it says at the top a FOIA request will let you know more.

That's what we don't want to exist for sport hunting. Even if we just enjoy plains game hunting, we get to enjoy our sport because there is a guy out there that will subsidize our impala hunt by paying $650k for a hunt of a surplus Black Rhino. When the big guys get crushed, the P&L of the outfitters and operators is severely impacted and they cannot make their expenses of which we benefit on cull hunts, meat hunts, or modest African plains game hunts.

We have to keep pressure on USFWS to allow these permits and retain their privacy or they'll sink the industry.

 

[Saul]

Here's an example of what the public sees to start:

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2003/12/18/03-31212/receipt-of-applications-for-permit

I picked one of many, that one from 2003. Those are the names, permits, and people. Were they zookeepers? Museum Curators? Were the animals alive? Dead specimens? Taxidermy? It varies as you can see, but it says at the top a FOIA request will let you know more.

That's what we don't want to exist for sport hunting. Even if we just enjoy plains game hunting, we get to enjoy our sport because there is a guy out there that will subsidize our impala hunt by paying $650k for a hunt of a surplus Black Rhino. When the big guys get crushed, the P&L of the outfitters and operators is severely impacted and they cannot make their expenses of which we benefit on cull hunts, meat hunts, or modest African plains game hunts.

We have to keep pressure on USFWS to allow these permits and retain their privacy or they'll sink the industry.

Just classifying each species request as "sport hunted" is enough for antis to target you.

 

[tigris115]

I think a good place to start is to

1. Ask the USFWS to keep names private and present examples of sport hunters being targeted by antis so that they'll know

2. Be as transparent as possible with how they process requests and what they look for. That way, we can give them what they want in terms of applying.

 

[wesheltonj]

As each permit is on a case by case base, I suspect you are going to have someone like Conservation Force making your application. Otherwise, not sure how you are going to justify that your trophy contributes to the preservation of the species.

 

[Philip Glass]

I'm aware of none. An astute attorney *might* be able to form an LLC and then apply for approvals based upon an application from that LLC in order to protect the identity of the applicant, but you'd need to hire a lawyer to find out if that's legally possible and whether you can conceal the contents of all the other applications you needed, or hold title to CITES and hunting licenses in that Corporate name as well. (doubt it) This is specifically for applications that get publicly posted in the Federal Register. A cursory look shows the applicants are usually applying for Oribi and Black Faced Impala import permits by name/address. It doesn't appear that Lion/Elephant/Leopard were published in the Federal Register for public comment prior to USFWS approval, but unsure if that will change if/when/if the USFWS reviews pending import permit applications for the aforementioned.

If the privacy of the applicant is lost by publication, or by surrender to the anti's via FOIA requests, the entire endeavor is done for good. The only people dumb or courageous enough to reveal their identity to attempt to get an import permit would be that narrow group of hunters that are A.) Super Rich with their own businesses that are immune from public outrage destroying their companies, B.) So armed to the teeth that they would relish someone attempting to do them harm on their large ranch/compound, C.) That don't worry about risks to their family or heirs or have none, and D.) Are particularly excited about going to ideological war with the anti's and the uninformed general public.

For a good case study on what the risks are related to the public knowing about your hunting and import permits, we might want to ask @Philip Glass who has stuck his neck on the line to communicate his interests and values to the general public. Phil, have you been "Doxxed" since you've applied for permits or appeared in the movie "Trophy"?

Yes for sure I have. One of the higher profile examples was a list of donors to President Trumps Campaign who had also imported a lion. Of course I was on that list! This was published widely in the media. What a bunch of fools! They thought they would shame me but those are two things I will be forever proud of and will fight for till my last breath.
I really don’t understand who so many hunters are timid about these things. If you are afraid of losing your job over importing a legally hunted trophy then you need to man up and get another job. This is America land of the free!
Regards,
Philip

 

[tigris115]

I really don’t understand who so many hunters are timid about these things. If you are afraid of losing your job over importing a legally hunted trophy then you need to man up and get another job.
Regards,
Philip

Pretty sure losing your job is the least of your worries if the antis get a hold of names. You could get blacklisted from pretty much everything in your profession, put your family at stake, and other things that IMO, further enforce the need for hunter's privacy. The last thing any of us need is to have our houses pelted with Molotov cocktails.

 

[Royal27]

Pretty sure losing your job is the least of your worries if the antis get a hold of names. You could get blacklisted from pretty much everything in your profession, put your family at stake, and other things that IMO, further enforce the need for hunter's privacy. The last thing any of us need is to have our houses pelted with Molotov cocktails.

Hiding hidden in a corner shaking in fear, afraid of illegal threats.

That's what made America great!

Privacy I agree with. Cowtowing in fear I do not.

 

[tigris115]

Hiding hidden in a corner shaking in fear, afraid of illegal threats.

That's what made America great!

Privacy I agree with. Cowtowing in fear I do not.

Call me paranoid but I'd rather not be in constant fear that some balaclava-clad hooligan will come up and rearrange my gray matter.

 

[Mort Hill]

Call me paranoid but I'd rather not be in constant fear that some balaclava-clad hooligan will come up and rearrange my gray matter.

Paranoid. Sorry. You asked me to.

 

[Royal27]

Call me paranoid but I'd rather not be in constant fear that some balaclava-clad hooligan will come up and rearrange my gray matter.

Then the terrorists have defeated you already. Fear is a powerful weapon. It builds upon itself and makes people think the worst will happen even when it almost never does.

Just curious, how many cases of a hunter's house being pelted with molotov cocktails or a hunter having his brains bashed in by a balaclava clad hooligan are you aware of?

 

[Philip Glass]

Hiding hidden in a corner shaking in fear, afraid of illegal threats.

That's what made America great!

Privacy I agree with. Cowtowing in fear I do not.

Yes, my point exactly.