KE / Momentum for Medium Plains Game?

[rookhawk]

Soooooo... some more archery knowledge is needed...

My wife is now interested in taking her bow with her on this trip..

She isnt pulling a lot of weight.. and her draw length is very short..

What we're looking at is.. 25" DL, 43.5 LB draw.. on a 330 FPS IBO bow (Matthews Avail)..

Her arrows are equally small.. albeit a good bit heavy and a good FOC for what they are.. She's shooting 24.5" (carbon to carbon) FMJ's with a 75gr half out and a 150gr broadhead.. total arrow weight is 506 gr.. FOC is 17.3...

Speed is pretty slow.. She's getting about 190 FPS with those heavy (for her) arrows...

Thats giving her about 40.52 KE and .427 Momentum..

I'm ASSUMING thats plenty for smallish PG (impala, blesbok, warthogs, etc).. and might even be enough for something like a nyala.. but Im thinking anything bigger or heartier like a wildebeest, zebra, etc should probably be avoided...

Its possible she could get the draw weight up another couple of pounds between now and the time we depart.. but I dont think another pound or two is going to increase the speed enough to make much of a material difference and think its probably best just to leave everything alone and let he continue to improve skills and confidence with daily shooting until we get there...

The good news is.. shes actually a much better bow shot than I am.. she's pretty consistent with 2" or smaller groups at 20 yards.. 3" or smaller groups at 30 yards, etc..

Im also thinking she'll likely limit shots to 20 yards and not try anything any further than that..

She's shooting 2 blade, fixed, cut on contact broadheads..

Ive got a little bit of concern about "jumping the string" with the slow speed.. and a little bit concerned about penetration with the low momentum rating..

All that said.. an average recurve or longbow speed is about 150-200 FPS.. and folks have killed lots of plains game over the centuries with recurves and long bows..

thoughts?

If I had to pick the #1 worst shaft on the planet, I'd pick her FMJs.

How about Sirius Orions or Easton Axis? Way weaker shafts, way better outserts. That is the way.

 

[mdwest]

Didn’t you say you like shitty shafts????

 

[rookhawk]

Didn’t you say you like shitty shafts????

Yes. Like some sort of 7.2gpi Victory archery target shafts or other such nonsense. And then ethics archery outserts/inserts and good epoxy to turn a shitty carbon fiber shaft into a string that flys behind your bullet!

Not only do FMJs dent and fly wonky, they rob your poor wife of FOC she desperately needs at her draw length and weight. Why does anyone want a heavy shaft?

 

[SikaMDhunter]

Sirius Orion are what I am running this year. 4mm with good carbon. I have a 10% off code for Sirius. SAFF10

They have their own insert/outsert or they will use ethics if you have them do your set up. They also have an option to give you the foc and specs for the arrows if they assemble them.

 

[mdwest]

I’m shooting Crimson Talon single bevel broad heads (200gr)

So… I have been super impressed with the 200gr Cleavers… they fly wonderfully… take a super sharp edge with just a minimum amount of effort… retain their edge well (I’ve launched one into a broadhead block target 5x times and it’s still sharp enough to hunt with), etc etc…

So I bought some 150gr cleavers for the wife…

Same results… she shot them into a broadhead target today several times… great flight out to 30 yards (furthest shot today)… sank deep into the target… retained the edge well…and amazingly easy to pull out of both the foam block target and the 3d blackbuck she shot them into…

Assuming they perform as expected on PG in a couple of weeks, when I get home I’ll be buying several more…

I’m seriously digging them right now… and loving the price for a single bevel, 2 blade broadhead…

 

[SikaMDhunter]

So… I have been super impressed with the 200gr Cleavers… they fly wonderfully… take a super sharp edge with just a minimum amount of effort… retain their edge well (I’ve launched one into a broadhead block target 5x times and it’s still sharp enough to hunt with), etc etc…

So I bought some 150gr cleavers for the wife…

Same results… she shot them into a broadhead target today several times… great flight out to 30 yards (furthest shot today)… sank deep into the target… retained the edge well…and amazingly easy to pull out of both the foam block target and the 3d blackbuck she shot them into…

Assuming they perform as expected on PG in a couple of weeks, when I get home I’ll be buying several more…

I’m seriously digging them right now… and loving the price for a single bevel, 2 blade broadhead…

I've seen these 150gr cleavers and Grizzlystik Maasai broadheads and their curved bevels. I believe your single bevels need to be as sharp as possible which requires one to bring them to a mirror finish. Those curved angles, in my thoughts, would only complicate the sharpening process. I'm sure they fly well and with proper steel strength, weight, angle, sharpness and ability to rotate they will work as well as anything.

 

[Altitude sickness]

I shot and killed a mature Eland last May with a 49# recurve and 550 grain Valkyrie arrow BH combo with extreme FOC and excellent arrow flight.

In this picture the arrow just struck the bull and buried in the off shoulder. He went 80 yards

She should be fine.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Here is my Buffalo arrow setup testing before my hunt. Angus leg bone. 250 Iron Will w/o bleeders
FMJ extreme FOC 1028 grains. 75# Matthews

 

[mdwest]

I've seen these 150gr cleavers and Grizzlystik Maasai broadheads and their curved bevels. I believe your single bevels need to be as sharp as possible which requires one to bring them to a mirror finish. Those curved angles, in my thoughts, would only complicate the sharpening process. I'm sure they fly well and with proper steel strength, weight, angle, sharpness and ability to rotate they will work as well as anything.

Sharpness isnt too much of a worry... They came out of the pack very sharp (passed the paper test).. I then put them to some 1000 grit paper and got them to a true razors edge, and then stropped them on a stropping block using 1800 grit polishing compound (the same thing I use to put a final mirror polish and fine edge on the knives I make).. They are hair popping sharp across the entire cutting edge..

 

[SikaMDhunter]

Sharpness isnt too much of a worry... They came out of the pack very sharp (passed the paper test).. I then put them to some 1000 grit paper and got them to a true razors edge, and then stropped them on a stropping block using 1800 grit polishing compound (the same thing I use to put a final mirror polish and fine edge on the knives I make).. They are hair popping sharp across the entire cutting edge..

Very nice.
I'll be going to RSA for PG. I got tuffheads and my goal is to use 2 heads repeatedly. I will be sharpening them up on diamond plates when I can but I really want to put them through the test.

 

[Don458]

The rule of thumb for speed gain per pound is 2 fps/pound. So going up to 70 pounds of draw I bet you'll get at least 220 fps with the same arrow. Right there you've gained 5 foot pounds of KE and puts it right where my 2005 CP Oneida Eagle was on my first hunt in Namibia in 2011. Yours has an advantage with 65 grains more weight for a bit more monentum. Mine was at 67 lbs and I used 525 grain arrows at 235 fps with 125 grain Slick Trick Magnums. On my blue wildebeest in 2011 it got through a rib on one side and broke a rib and stopped on the hide on the other. So, from my experience you have the necessary penetration potential. After that it's all about shot placement. I helped clean it to see what damage was done. I hit a couple big blood vessels above the heart and deflated both lungs with that four blade head. You couldn't ask for much better.

I use Slick trick 100 gr grizztrick for whitetail , very happy with results. They are fantastic broadheads . All Deer shot have complete pass through with big wound channel .

 

[mdwest]

I'll be going to RSA for PG. I got tuffheads and my goal is to use 2 heads repeatedly. I will be sharpening them up on diamond plates when I can but I really want to put them through the test.

Ive got a similar plan....

Im taking 5x sharp heads with me and 1x "practice" head (the one Ive been shooting in practice that is starting to dull out).. Im not planning on spending my entire hunt in a bow blind.. but I'd like to take at least a couple of animals with the bow..

the same is true for the wife.. she's taking 5x "sharp" heads with her plus the 1x "practice" head that shes been shooting to confirm the tune on her bow and confirm consistent flight with field points, etc.. most of her planned hunt is going to involve a rifle (Cape Buff cow, etc..).. but she'd like to spend a little time in a blind and just see what comes in and if the right opportunity presents itself, she'd love to use to bow to take an animal or two..

My intent is to use 1 or 2 heads tops.. I'll have the additional heads there if they are needed.. but I dont really anticipate needing them.. 1 head frankly should be able to take at least a couple of animals unless something goes wrong (unexpected).. I'll have sharpening and stropping tools with me to clean heads up as they are used.. and I'd really like to get some no kidding real world use performance testing out of the cleavers while I am there if I can..

10 days and counting until we get on a plane! Im pretty fired up to take the bow this year!

 

[mdwest]

I use Slick trick 100 gr grizztrick for whitetail , very happy with results. They are fantastic broadheads . All Deer shot have complete pass through with big wound channel .

Ive got a good friend that swears by those for whitetail, muleys, and hogs.. they are the only broadheads he uses.. Im pretty sure the elk he took in Colorado a couple of years ago fell to a grizztrick as well..

based on all of the Ashby research and the information from the guys here on AH that have done a good bit of bow hunting on PG I decided to go with a 2 blade, single bevel option for this trip.. I used a G5 Montec (also known for being an excellent whitetail broadhead) on the last PG animal I took with a bow.. and got less than desirable results (dead animal.. but LONG track.. and a LOT of time for the wildebeest to expire... basically a "perfect" shot in terms of placement.. but only 8" of penetration after being hit with a 525+ gr arrow launched from a bow set at 65# of draw weight).. which is ultimately what led me down the rabbit hole of completely overhauling the bow, the arrows, the broadheads, etc for this trip and making sure I have a rig that I could have confidence in for pretty much anything that walks within 30 yards of the blind.. whether guinea fowl or eland.. or anything in between..

 

[mdwest]

Here is my Buffalo arrow setup testing before my hunt. Angus leg bone. 250 Iron Will w/o bleeders
FMJ extreme FOC 1028 grains. 75# Matthews

View attachment 543827

Now that is some impressive penetration! Well done!

 

[Altitude sickness]

Getting way off in the weeds. For max penetration. I don’t want my arrows flexing (Paradox) much at all. I use what many consider too stiff of a spine. I film my arrows in slo mo from behind me. In front and to the side to see if the arrows is flexing.
If you look at many arrows in flight they are still flexing back and forth 20-30 yards out. Robbing a huge amount of penetration. Think of a broadhead impacting a rib cage while the side of that arrow is flexed out sideways and the nock is not impacting perfectly in line with the BH. That energy is sent sideways, not straight through the animal.

A STRAIGHT flying arrow wins over a flexing arrow every time
And for those that focus on (proper) spine. Think, how do they get short crossbow bolts to fly straight with zero flex. FOC

 

[mdwest]

I'd like to get a slow motion camera and film some arrows in flight, etc.. I think that would be fun if for no other reason just to see how things really work, and how little tweaks and tunes change things..

Im shooting a 250 spined arrow at the moment.. probably slightly over spined (at least according to the spine chart) for my weight and length.. but I am happy with the accuracy results, paper tuning results, etc..

 

[Altitude sickness]

Use a smart phone video in slo mo. Then it can be slowed more while reviewing. Not Hollywood quality. But if you have good background contrast it works fine

This picture is a screen shot while viewing an iPhone video. It shows the arrow bending around the longbow handle. Which is good.

But. If the arrow is doing that all the way to the target. You are being robbed of energy. But be warned. Most experts don’t get this far into the weeds :>)))
Or rabbit hole. May want to want till you get back.

 

[SikaMDhunter]

Over spined usually means the right spine

 

[mdwest]

teaser for a hunt review that will get posted in the future (currently in SA hunting.. will be back home in about 2 weeks)...

took a nice cull wildebeest with the aforementioned rig and arrow yesterday... 22 yards... hit the wildebeest on the front right shoulder on a quartering toward shot.. the arrow exited just in front of the rear left hip.. complete pass through.. and still had enough energy left in it to travel another 20 yards after exiting the animal..

Im super impressed with the arrow, broadhead, and rig at this point.. a shot that goes completely through 3/4 of the mass of a 450+ lb animal and then keeps on trucking is pretty awesome..

there wasnt a whole lot of blood to follow... but the wildebeest only made it about 80 yards before piling up... it took very little time to find him..

hopefully ill get another opportunity to test this thing out over the next few days and report back findings..

but for now.. a HUGE THANKS to all of you that provided information, suggestions, and thoughts in this thread and others.. the first arrow launched in South Africa rendered a great success!

 

[rookhawk]

I'd like to get a slow motion camera and film some arrows in flight, etc.. I think that would be fun if for no other reason just to see how things really work, and how little tweaks and tunes change things..

Im shooting a 250 spined arrow at the moment.. probably slightly over spined (at least according to the spine chart) for my weight and length.. but I am happy with the accuracy results, paper tuning results, etc..

Easy to do. Your iPhone has slo-mo capture. I did this for my kids as they were tuning arrows and working on form. It’s a great teaching aid.