J W Tolley Double Rifle

[Furharvester]

So I'm just trying to relay the ribs on my Cape Gun & notice it has no info on the flats either but just ahead on the barrels like your Tolley @Furharvester !

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This is marked 52 also & the rifle barrel is .577/450 (was meant to be 450 No2 Musket) & 16bore (was meant to be 12ga lol) I got it cheap but both calibers were wrong & the ribs were both lifting !

Is your cape gun a Tolley too?

 

[Furharvester]

I like these old Lever Over Guard, external hammer black powder guns. Like the doll's head too. The charge is 4 drams or essentially 110 grains, whereas most of the 450 exp listed in the literature are the stouter 120 FFFg load. Still, there were numerous 450's and numerous loadings. Happily, you didn't fire a cordite load in this old gun, or we might not be having this conversation. Congrats on real treasure.......FWB

What do you guys mean by dolls head? I’m not new to guns but new to these kind of guns and am trying to learn more about them. Before this forum I had never heard of dolls head as a gun term. Thank you in advance for the information

 

[Sarg]

Sorry no my Cape Gun is a cool rifle by Reilly, looks like a Double Rifle as it is a Jones under lever & most or a lot of the Cape Guns are Top Lever .

The Dolls Head is a form of top fastener, rib extension, some call them a Third bite but a Dolls head is not really a Third Bite like a Greener Cross Bolt (as you would see on most shotguns) Rigby Rising Bite & a multitude of others .

Tolleys like your lovely Double Rifle normally or commonly are fitted/made with the "Giant Grip" which is Tolleys famous Top Fastener/Third Bite , ill see if I have a photo of my one .

 

[flatwater bill]

@Sarg beautiful firearm you have there. The fences on that are spectacular......thanks for photos.....FWB

 

[Huvius]

Well it seems the barrels are steel so that's good & have Henry rifling, as I remember 52 Bore (bore diameter not groove) is around .450 caliber, so adds up.

As mentioned a chamber cast is always a good idea, as who knows who has been tinkering with it over more than 100yrs, the cleaned or polished flats are a strange sign of this ?

As I said before that longer 480gr slug in the 450NE bullet could be engaging the rifling where the much shorter 270-350gr lead bullet would normally fit ?

Sarg is right on here.
The 480gr bullet in the Nitro Express cartridge just sticks out too far to chamber - the nose of the bullet is bumping into the lands of the rifleing.
The "52" is the bore measurement - meaning 52 pure lead balls per pound which equals .450" bore diameter.
That is the minor diameter of the bore is .450" and the Henry rifling would add .008" or so.
Many of the early 450 3-1/4" Back Powder Express rifles will not allow a .458" bullet though and would have originally used a .450" paper patched or grease groove bullet which would obturate to fill the grooves of the barrel when fired.
This was all a holdover from muzzle loading match rifles which used paper patched bullets which just slid snugly down the bore when loading.
In breech loading form, the same is accomplished by the bullet fitting the bore and the case mouth running right up to the rifling with little or no leade.

If you don't have any Cerrosafe to make a chamber cast, you can give your chambers a good cleaning, plug the bores just in front of the chamber with a ball of tissue, spray a little Pam cooking spray in there and use a hot glue gun to make a cast.
That will tell you what it is without the need of a precision chamber cast.

Good looking rifle!

 

[93marlin]

What ever you do, don't shoot a NE cartridge in it just because it fits! The previous owner of my 500BPE fired ONE 500 Nitro express in it. Result was only a cracked stock at the wrist. The rest of the rifle handled with absolutely no problems. Needless to say, they were very lucky.

 

[Furharvester]

What ever you do, don't shoot a NE cartridge in it just because it fits! The previous owner of my 500BPE fired ONE 500 Nitro express in it. Result was only a cracked stock at the wrist. The rest of the rifle handled with absolutely no problems. Needless to say, they were very lucky.

They were super lucky a broken stock was all that happened.

 

[Furharvester]

Sarg is right on here.
The 480gr bullet in the Nitro Express cartridge just sticks out too far to chamber - the nose of the bullet is bumping into the lands of the rifleing.
The "52" is the bore measurement - meaning 52 pure lead balls per pound which equals .450" bore diameter.
That is the minor diameter of the bore is .450" and the Henry rifling would add .008" or so.
Many of the early 450 3-1/4" Back Powder Express rifles will not allow a .458" bullet though and would have originally used a .450" paper patched or grease groove bullet which would obturate to fill the grooves of the barrel when fired.
This was all a holdover from muzzle loading match rifles which used paper patched bullets which just slid snugly down the bore when loading.
In breech loading form, the same is accomplished by the bullet fitting the bore and the case mouth running right up to the rifling with little or no leade.

If you don't have any Cerrosafe to make a chamber cast, you can give your chambers a good cleaning, plug the bores just in front of the chamber with a ball of tissue, spray a little Pam cooking spray in there and use a hot glue gun to make a cast.
That will tell you what it is without the need of a precision chamber cast.

Good looking rifle!

Thank you for the information and the hot glue gun tip. I was planning on taking it to a gunsmith my dad knows. Him and my grandpa used to take their drillings there if they needed anything done to them and I know the guy built a rifle or two for my grandpa. But I could do the glue gun trick just to get an idea before I take the gun in.

 

[Furharvester]

Sorry no my Cape Gun is a cool rifle by Reilly, looks like a Double Rifle as it is a Jones under lever & most or a lot of the Cape Guns are Top Lever .

The Dolls Head is a form of top fastener, rib extension, some call them a Third bite but a Dolls head is not really a Third Bite like a Greener Cross Bolt (as you would see on most shotguns) Rigby Rising Bite & a multitude of others .

Tolleys like your lovely Double Rifle normally or commonly are fitted/made with the "Giant Grip" which is Tolleys famous Top Fastener/Third Bite , ill see if I have a photo of my one .

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That is a very beautiful gun right there

 

[Sarg]

Thank you, yes I love that rifle but it is a bit large to do much with, I think Cal did a little write up in his book ?

If you want to see some beautiful old rifles ask @Huvius to post up some of his, he has or had some real fantastic old girls ?

Not saying Glue Gun won't work but I do my own chamber casts & it is very easy even with out Cerrosafe.

All you need is a bit of Sulphur/Sulfur, I have large sacks for making BP but you can get a small bag or jar from your Pharmacist/Chemist store, I get a short length of wire (cut a coat hanger if need be) attach a large ball of cotton wool to the end of that, oil chamber & bore a little, wipe, oil the cotton ball, run into chamber (the cotton ball into the first 1in or so of the rifling) hold in the middle & pour the heated/melted sulphur into the chamber.

Heat on your camping stove out side as it smells up the house & if you have a wife she will get mad, me I heat on the stove cause I don't care lol

Then just withdraw the wire, cotton ball with the cast attached, it is close enough for field work & if you want it to look a bit cooler & maybe a little slippery, you can add a small amount of graphite powder.

I have a rough one here I made of a 12 Bore rifle so lots of product & I was in a hurry, have had some very nice ones but couldn't put my hands on one right now.

 

[Furharvester]

An update on the J W Tolley
I’ve tried the hot glue gun trick 3 or 4 times so far with little success and I finally killed the wife’s glue gun! Thankfully she was helping me and it died when she was pulling the trigger lol. I was doing a little research on where I could buy the sulfur to try that method and realized that we already have some of the Sevin pesticide stuff in the garage. As best I can tell it’s just sulfur dust. Will this for the casting and if so are there any tips or tricks I should know before attempting this method? I’m going to do it outside as I know from what Sarg said it stinks and I DO have a wife and DON’T want to be on the couch the next few nights lol

 

[Sarg]

Haha, it doesn't really stink like you think, just if you melt it till it smokes it is a little choking, Ok if your doing it but others will complain.

Ok I use a old tin can but old small pot will do I suppose, I form a small spout or pouring nose on the can with pliers, grasp the rear of the can with vise grips or form a tight handle out of wire.

Put some sulfur powder/dust in the can heat till it melts, pour into the chamber that you prepared as I stated earlier holding the wire in the middle, slightly over fill, let it harden, then with draw !

It really is very easy & you can keep it in a draw with all the others you make, it is a little brittle so don't throw it around .

If you like heat some up & try on something small & easy to see how you go ?

 

[Huvius]

Well, I'll say this, the only British 450 of the era that is based on the 3-1/4" case is the 3-1/4" 450 BPE itself!
All of the other encountered 450s are based on a 500 case of one sort or another.
So, if that 450NE case dang near fills the chamber other than the last 1/4" or so which your photo of the chambered round shows, I'd bet my car that you have a 450 3-1/4" BPE rifle!
It would be more than obvious if your rifle was chambered for one of the 500/450s.
Flip the NE case around backwards and see how the rim fits into the rim recess in the breech of your barrels. That will also tell you what you're working with.
The thin rimmed 3-1/4" is the only 450 with that rim thickness and diameter.

 

[Furharvester]

I don’t want to sell the rifle but I am curious to know what a rifle like this is worth. I can’t figure out how to take a good picture of the rifling and bore but I promise they are excellent condition.

 

[gizmo]

My goodness she a beautiful old girl. I love these old BP guns. I’ve started buying them as I can afford it, mainly shotguns as they are more within my financial capabilities. I have every intention of getting into the BP double rifles as soon as I can scrape the funds together. I have several Martini Henry’s including a ZAR stamped Westley Richard’s Martini Henry. I enjoy making the ammunition for them and shooting them. All that I’ve managed to accumulate I shoot or are in the process of restoring to shooting condition.

 

[Furharvester]

Here’s my best pictures so far of the rifling

 

[Huvius]

Funny thing about rifle bores - looking down one way, they can look quite nice but flipping the barrel around and looking upstream, not so much...
Those bores are definitely shootable.
If you have a deep wash sink, take your barrels and give the bores a good scrub, pumping hot water up and down the bores with your brush. Don't be afraid to put a piece of red scotchbrite on your jag and scrub the bores with that.
I do a final wash of the barrels inside and out with ArmorAll Wash-n-Wax.
That and hot water will allow your barrels to shed water and dry up in the places you cant easily dry with a towel. Leaves a nice smooth feel to the steel too.

As for a value, I generally shy away from giving my opinion but I'd say your rifle would be in the $3500-$5500 range retail.
You'll get much more enjoyment than that getting it to shoot and putting it to use.

 

[Furharvester]

I'm not interested in selling the rifle. I was just curious to know how much it might be worth. Thank you for the information. I'll have to give that scrubbing technique a try when I get time.

 

[Furharvester]

I put the 450 NE cartridge in to the chamber backwards as suggested to see how the rim fits. It seems to be a little loose around the rim. I don’t know if that’s supposed to be that way for ejection purposes or maybe it’s not the right cartridge. It’s an old kynoch cartridge by the way. What are your guys thoughts?

 

[Huvius]

That is a little loose although the fit of the cartridge body is more important than the rim fit.
All 450 3-1/4" cartridges are the same dimensionally whether original BPE case or nitro express cases - shouldn't matter. My own 450BPE's rim recess is a much closer fit than on your rifle.

If you have a micrometer take some measurements. Hope the chambers haven't been monkeyed with...