Is this a Guild Gun

[Aaron N]

Well funny story, apparently while your firearms license is in the renewal phase, you can’t purchase anything.

Soooo I’m waiting on my renewal to finish

 

[Laniarius]

Well funny story, apparently while your firearms license is in the renewal phase, you can’t purchase anything.

Soooo I’m waiting on my renewal to finish

I see you're in Canada as well and I'd like to clarify. Do you mean that your PAL had not yet expired but you applied for a renewal and that's in progress? If so, I didn't know that would affect our ability to purchase. Presumably you'd still have the current card but I guess with the new validation system for a sale process, that's an opportunity for the current Federal regime to needlessly harass us in yet another way.

 

[Aaron N]

I see you're in Canada as well and I'd like to clarify. Do you mean that your PAL had not yet expired but you applied for a renewal and that's in progress? If so, I didn't know that would affect our ability to purchase. Presumably you'd still have the current card but I guess with the new validation system for a sale process, that's an opportunity for the current Federal regime to needlessly harass us in yet another way.

I had put in my renewal before it expired, but they rejected the photo, so I’m still waiting on a new one, but yes, it had expired in the meantime. I assumed the six month grace period still allowed you maintain the status quo, but apparently not.

I didn’t give it any thought because I’ve never had a seller actually phone in a verification.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I see you're in Canada as well and I'd like to clarify. Do you mean that your PAL had not yet expired but you applied for a renewal and that's in progress? If so, I didn't know that would affect our ability to purchase. Presumably you'd still have the current card but I guess with the new validation system for a sale process, that's an opportunity for the current Federal regime to needlessly harass us in yet another way.

I have long felt some sort of "validation system" was a long overdue component to ensure federal licensing of gun owners actually works to help keep firearms out of the hands of undesirables (e.g. Montreal biker drug lords, Toronto gang punks, wife beaters, mentally unstable, etc.). Note that I said "helps". I acknowledge that no "system" will ever eliminate the problem entirely, but it's not going to resolve itself even in the slightest if we just look the other way and pretend there is no problem. So yes, everyone who sells a gun should be required to not only see the buyer's PAL (Possession and Aquisition License) but ensure it's actually valid. I thought there was already a hotline one could call to ensure a PAL was valid but wasn't it just optional for private vendors? I'm not at all into gun trading so not entirely up to speed on all the changes.

The turnaround time renewing my last PAL was remarkably quick (Ontario license). Maybe a week? A couple years back I went in to buy ammo and the clerk couldn't read the number on my license. The photo had worn off long before that and my license was only three years old! He guessed at the number and let me have the shells. I called the provincial office and a replacement was sent no questions asked and no fee (apparently a common problem). It was in my mailbox three days later! I note that the new licenses are MUCH improved quality. Renewal seems kinda pricey but about on par with what it costs to get a criminal background check for a job so not really out of line I guess.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I had put in my renewal before it expired, but they rejected the photo, so I’m still waiting on a new one, but yes, it had expired in the meantime. I assumed the six month grace period still allowed you maintain the status quo, but apparently not.

I didn’t give it any thought because I’ve never had a seller actually phone in a verification.

Yes, if you're not real handy with photo editing program, getting the photo just right can be a problem. Too bad they don't have some way of letting us go down to drivers licensing and have them take the photo. I'd pay a little more for that. And that way the govt would also know the photo they're using for my PAL is actually me ... rather than assuming the one I'm mailing to them is me. That never made a lot of sense.

 

[rookhawk]

Any thoughts @Red Leg or @rookhawk

Yes, it's a 98 action mauser "guild gun" until its taken apart to see if a maker's name is hidden anywhere on it. At that point, its still a guild gun but people might state the retailer's name is the maker. I can't see the proof marks to determine if its Zella-Melis or Suhl (German) or Ferlach (Austrian).

The flag safety should be swapped to a winchester model 70 side safety, which in turn would allow a lower scope mount. Because it has a greener safety, most of the time the bolt safety is in the "fire" position anyway, preferring the stalking safety on the side for actual use.

Being an 8mm makes it surprisingly low value in the collector market. (very common caliber) It will probably be a wonderful working gun of high quality for a low price.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Yes, it's a 98 action mauser "guild gun" until its taken apart to see if a maker's name is hidden anywhere on it. At that point, its still a guild gun but people might state the retailer's name is the maker. I can't see the proof marks to determine if its Zella-Melis or Suhl (German) or Ferlach (Austrian).

The flag safety should be swapped to a winchester model 70 side safety, which in turn would allow a lower scope mount. Because it has a greener safety, most of the time the bolt safety is in the "fire" position anyway, preferring the stalking safety on the side for actual use.

Being an 8mm makes it surprisingly low value in the collector market. (very common caliber) It will probably be a wonderful working gun of high quality for a low price.

Those Model 70 style safeties are pricey (I just bought one). Since it already has the Greenier safety, I would advise buying a "commercial Mauser" bolt shroud with no safety. Having two safeties is redundant. I saw those shrouds on ebay not too long ago. Would be a lot cheaper. That way the rifle would still be somewhat sorta period looking (commercial Mausers also would not have stripper clip slot in receiver). Disassembly of the bolt without second position flag safety would be a bit more complicated but doable. How often does one need to disassemble the bolt?

 

[rookhawk]

Those Model 70 style safeties are pricey (I just bought one). Since it already has the Greenier safety, I would advise buying a "commercial Mauser" bolt shroud with no safety. Having two safeties is redundant. I saw those shrouds on ebay not too long ago. Would be a lot cheaper. That way the rifle would still be somewhat sorta period looking (commercial Mausers also would not have stripper clip slot in receiver). Disassembly of the bolt without second position flag safety would be a bit more complicated but doable. How often does one need to disassemble the bolt?

Whether tang safety or greener safety, they are not "good safeties" in that they are simply obstructing the trigger. Since they cannot be trusted wholly, fine mausers with "stalking safeties" retain the intercepting safeties on the bolt shrouds.

Put another way, a mauser with a tang or greener safety is for "final approach" on game but is highly susceptible to an accidental firing if the rifle is jarred or dropped.

The added value of a side safety is that it is disengaging the sear, just like the cumbersome flag safeties do. With a side safety that is three positions, you get a lower scope mounting, plus the ability to safely load and unload the rifle without it having to have the gun ready to fire on a loaded round when you attempt to unload.

Yes, they are costly, typically $150-$300 plus fitting. They cost that much because they are worth it.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Whether tang safety or greener safety, they are not "good safeties" in that they are simply obstructing the trigger. Since they cannot be trusted wholly, fine mausers with "stalking safeties" retain the intercepting safeties on the bolt shrouds.

Put another way, a mauser with a tang or greener safety is for "final approach" on game but is highly susceptible to an accidental firing if the rifle is jarred or dropped.

The added value of a side safety is that it is disengaging the sear, just like the cumbersome flag safeties do. With a side safety that is three positions, you get a lower scope mounting, plus the ability to safely load and unload the rifle without it having to have the gun ready to fire on a loaded round when you attempt to unload.

Yes, they are costly, typically $150-$300 plus fitting. They cost that much because they are worth it.

I am unfamiliar with Greenier safeties but it is true trigger block safeties are generally thought to be not as "safe" as striker type safeties. Perhaps if a quality trigger block safety gun was dropped off a cliff it might be jarred enough to discharge, but in most hunting situations they are considered safe enough. The safety issue of placing the gun off safe to unload the gun is, I suppose, real enough. I've had to do it with my Springfield since Dad installed the 2-position Buhler style safety back in 1962. I'm in the habit of pointing the gun in a safe direction at ALL times so it would never be an issue. Haven't had a slam fire yet. It's possible I guess but extremely unlikely.

For any of us who are experienced, two safeties is unquestionably redundant. Certainly, if a 3-position Model 70 safety is added, the historic value goes out the window. And the Greenier side safety definitely becomes redundant as operating the Model 70 style safety would be just as easy, if not more so, than Greenier. No point in keeping it. As I said, I think the least historicly impacting improvement would be go to a commercial Mauser shroud, toss the flag safety, and drop the scope mount down to something more user friendly.

 

[rookhawk]

I am unfamiliar with Greenier safeties but it is true trigger block safeties are generally thought to be not as "safe" as striker type safeties. Perhaps if a quality trigger block safety gun was dropped off a cliff it might be jarred enough to discharge, but in most hunting situations they are considered safe enough. The safety issue of placing the gun off safe to unload the gun is, I suppose, real enough. I've had to do it with my Springfield since Dad installed the 2-position Buhler style safety back in 1962. I'm in the habit of pointing the gun in a safe direction at ALL times so it would never be an issue. Haven't had a slam fire yet. It's possible I guess but extremely unlikely.

For any of us who are experienced, two safeties is unquestionably redundant. Certainly, if a 3-position Model 70 safety is added, the historic value goes out the window. And the Greenier side safety definitely becomes redundant as operating the Model 70 style safety would be just as easy, if not more so, than Greenier. No point in keeping it. As I said, I think the least historicly impacting improvement would be go to a commercial Mauser shroud, toss the flag safety, and drop the scope mount down to something more user friendly.

I guess it depends what you think the value of the gun is?

The gun if it was in unrestored, original, mint condition is a ~$2000 gun. In its current state, a fraction of that. Its a good action, elegantly stocked and appointed, and is better than anything at its pricepoint on the new gun rack.

Just gave my opinion on what is not ideal about the gun because I was asked by the OP specifically. YMMV and your expertise on such matters may exceed my own.

 

[Aaron N]

Yes, it's a 98 action mauser "guild gun" until its taken apart to see if a maker's name is hidden anywhere on it. At that point, its still a guild gun but people might state the retailer's name is the maker. I can't see the proof marks to determine if its Zella-Melis or Suhl (German) or Ferlach (Austrian).

The flag safety should be swapped to a winchester model 70 side safety, which in turn would allow a lower scope mount. Because it has a greener safety, most of the time the bolt safety is in the "fire" position anyway, preferring the stalking safety on the side for actual use.

Being an 8mm makes it surprisingly low value in the collector market. (very common caliber) It will probably be a wonderful working gun of high quality for a low price.

It’s an interesting gun, but I don’t think it warrants putting a new safety on it and then having new lower claws made for it. Seems like a fairly pricey investment that won’t see much return.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

It’s an interesting gun, but I don’t think it warrants putting a new safety on it and then having new lower claws made for it. Seems like a fairly pricey investment that won’t see much return.

New shroud without flag safety would be a cheap fix. I was pricing them a few weeks ago. But I think you are right about the claws. Have no idea where or how someone would go about finding/making them.

I think the OP has a fun project to play with. I see old commercial Mauser stocks coming up on eBay all the time. They usually go quite reasonably. Might be worth it to pick one up and see if it fits better. Nothing to lose. Always check the action screw placements before buying to make sure it will match up. Vendors often post the measurement between screws. Changing the claws would, I think, be worth exploring. This gun is clearly not original given what's happened to the stock but nothing to stop him from making it look a little more original and also more useful. Challenging = interesting = fun.

 

[Aaron N]

New shroud without flag safety would be a cheap fix. I was pricing them a few weeks ago. But I think you are right about the claws. Have no idea where or how someone would go about finding/making them.

I think the OP has a fun project to play with. I see old commercial Mauser stocks coming up on eBay all the time. They usually go quite reasonably. Might be worth it to pick one up and see if it fits better. Nothing to lose. Always check the action screw placements before buying to make sure it will match up. Vendors often post the measurement between screws. Changing the claws would, I think, be worth exploring. This gun is clearly not original given what's happened to the stock but nothing to stop him from making it look a little more original and also more useful. Challenging = interesting = fun.

You’re right about the safety, I think the last one I had installed was around $400? Claws would be another beast. I don’t think Ralf Martini is taking on work, and don’t know who else I would trust.

 

[rookhawk]

You’re right about the safety, I think the last one I had installed was around $400? Claws would be another beast. I don’t think Ralf Martini is taking on work, and don’t know who else I would trust.

I love claw mounts as much as the next guy (more actually), but if you were updating the rifle, and you have any gunsmithing skills yourself, you'd drift out the front claw base, remove the rear claw base, install a pivot escutcheon in the front and base mount in the rear, plus rings from EAW, and you'd be in great shape.

Total parts for swap over to German pivot mounts: ~$465ish. Cost to have it done by NECG or others, ~ $900ish. Plus the cost of a safety which would be $150 for part, $75 for install, $35 for bluing.

Put another way, if you had a really nice optic you liked and you wanted this to be a fully updated classic gun, with thrift you could get there if you owned the optic already, for about $720.

OR, just leave it all as-is, clean the checkering, put a nice silvers pad on it, clean up the gun with Kroil and 0000 bronze wool, lay up a few more coats of oil finish with a grain fill, and call it a nice shooting iron that will present in much higher condition than photos at present. Cost and time for that approach if you do the labor: $150.

 

[Red Leg]

You’re right about the safety, I think the last one I had installed was around $400? Claws would be another beast. I don’t think Ralf Martini is taking on work, and don’t know who else I would trust.

I have no idea in Canada. JJ Perodeau will build 1" or 30mm rings to fit existing bases for a straight tube scope (no custom fitting to the objective) fairly reasonably. He can do a custom objective ring, but that can be very expensive. I have no idea what your issues would be getting a rifle to and from Oklahoma. I have done that on a couple of Mauser actions of this period. One ends up with a low, very useable aiming solution and mounts that work as intended. The safety clearance issue is easily solved by one of the Buheler style replacements.

Timney Triggers Buheler-Style Low Profile Safety Mauser 98 Nickel

The Timney Low Profile Safety is a low profile safety for the Mauser 98.

www.midwayusa.com

Or, as @rookhawk suggests, if the current scope is useable, then clean the rifle up and shoot it like a Jaeger would with a more vertical posture and "cheek" weld on the jawline. It is a surprisingly accurate technique.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I have no idea in Canada. JJ Perodeau will build 1" or 30mm rings to fit existing bases for a straight tube scope (no custom fitting to the objective) fairly reasonably. He can do a custom objective ring, but that can be very expensive. I have no idea what your issues would be getting a rifle to and from Oklahoma. I have done that on a couple of Mauser actions of this period. One ends up with a low, very useable aiming solution and mounts that work as intended. The safety clearance issue is easily solved by one of the Buheler style replacements.

Timney Triggers Buheler-Style Low Profile Safety Mauser 98 Nickel

The Timney Low Profile Safety is a low profile safety for the Mauser 98.

www.midwayusa.com

Or, as @rookhawk suggests, if the current scope is useable, then clean the rifle up and shoot it like a Jaeger would with a more vertical posture and "cheek" weld on the jawline. It is a surprisingly accurate technique.

Not sure about Mauser but similar 2-position Buhler style wing safeties for my Springfield have one flaw to watch out for: rattling the bolt can disengage the safety. Seen it on many other Springfields at gun shows. This Mauser 3-position safety from Parkwest I installed last week locks the bolt solidly when in safe position. They can be got for $200 in the white. $246 case hardened. It installed easily but didn't like the Timney trigger. Had to whittle on the sear per instructions. Curiously, it worked fine with old military trigger. Also, the pawl catch hole for fire position was not quite in the correct place. I had to stretch the hole slightly with a fine tipped engraving carbide bit in Dremel tool. Otherwise the gun sometimes jumped back to position 2 when cycling rapidly. Didn't make the gun necessarily unsafe ... unless an angry shot up buffalo was intent on turning me into a giant hamburger patty. "Why is my gun not firing? Nyaaah!" It was an easy fix and I alerted them to the problem.

 

[Red Leg]

Not sure about Mauser but similar 2-position Buhler style wing safeties for my Springfield have one flaw to watch out for: rattling the bolt can disengage the safety. Seen it on many other Springfields at gun shows. This Mauser 3-position safety from Parkwest I installed last week locks the bolt solidly when in safe position. They can be got for $200 in the white. $246 case hardened. It installed easily but didn't like the Timney trigger. Had to whittle on the sear per instructions. Curiously, it worked fine with old military trigger. Also, the pawl catch hole for fire position was not quite in the correct place. I had to stretch the hole slightly with a fine tipped engraving carbide bit in Dremel tool. Otherwise the gun sometimes jumped back to position 2 when cycling rapidly. Didn't make the gun necessarily unsafe ... unless an angry shot up buffalo was intent on turning me into a giant hamburger patty. "Why is my gun not firing? Nyaaah!" It was an easy fix and I alerted them to the problem.
View attachment 544973
View attachment 544974

For a permanent fix, or a rifle being customized, that absolutely would be the way to go. The nice thing about the Buehler, if used on a valuable period piece, it is easy to swap the original back in place. I have not had an issue with one drifting off on a 98.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

For a permanent fix, or a rifle being customized, that absolutely would be the way to go. The nice thing about the Buehler, if used on a valuable period piece, it is easy to swap the original back in place. I have not had an issue with one drifting off on a 98.

The Buhler style is not the best option for quick detach scope systems. When scope is removed, the wing is left sticking up in the air unprotected where it is easily caught on clothing or brush and disengaged. Lesson learned with my Springfield! I should change it to Model 70 style 3-position but those safeties also require significantly modified strikers = much more expensive!

I modified my Springfield's Buhler style with a small tension take up screw threaded down through top of the bolt shroud to shaft of safety. I then cut a groove in the shaft to accept the screw. That way the safety was tightened up and cannot rattle or move laterally, which was the problem. Well, most of the problem. It doesn't cure the wing sticking up unprotected issue. Only cure for that is let the gun wear a scope or carry with no round in the chamber ... or bend over and pay the bucks for 3-position side safety.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I‘ve seen a few rifles EXACTLY IDENTICAL to this one for sale in Waffen Frankonia, Germany in 1975. Is it possible that yours was made by a member of the German Gunmakers Guild for Waffen Frankonia ?

If it’s a Waffen Frankonia, then there should be a tiny “WFW” stamp somewhere.

Here’s a variant in .30-06 Springfield.

 

[Aaron N]

I‘ve seen a few rifles EXACTLY IDENTICAL to this one for sale in Waffen Frankonia, Germany in 1975. Is it possible that yours was made by a member of the German Gunmakers Guild for Waffen Frankonia ?

If it’s a Waffen Frankonia, then there should be a tiny “WFW” stamp somewhere.

Here’s a variant in .30-06 Springfield.
View attachment 545161

I have a Frankonia in 8x68. I haven’t laid a hand on the new rifle, but I doubt it was from there.