Is there a sweet spot in the performance/cost spectrum for safari-grade rifles

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Mr. Phil,
I have three bolt guns CZ, Portugal made M-70 and a Kimber Caprivi two in 458 Lott and the 70 in 458 Win Mag. I went into detail on some other posts of the problems that I had with these rifles. I'll be be brief here. CZ has feed issues. Some days it feeds and some days it doesn't with the same ammo. AHR had it and so did Triple River still no fix. The Kimber don't feed or eject good and it's been back to factory twice. Tried several different loads in the M70 but couldn't get close to accuracy of the other rifles. I have 5000.00 $ in these rifles and needless to say I'm not a happy camper. That being said after all the aggravation I found a used Merkel double in .500 Nitro for 9500.00$. I bought it, and man ,that sumbitch works. It is accurate, looks good, and so far no feed or ejection issues. It also came with claw scope mounts. Now I'm happy.

Fair enough reply, I did not see your previous posts. I'm a little surprised at the M70 issues. I have one of the newer ones produced under FN management. It's stupidly accurate. My best friend bought one not long ago. Using same loads I developed for mine, it is just as accurate. And that is what I read about most who have bought FN made M70's, sorry it didn't work for you.

 

[crudeoildude]

Looks like myold 45-70 isn't going to make it as my new DG rifle,dammit

 

[Hogpatrol]

Mr. Phil,
I have three bolt guns CZ, Portugal made M-70 and a Kimber Caprivi two in 458 Lott and the 70 in 458 Win Mag. I went into detail on some other posts of the problems that I had with these rifles. I'll be be brief here. CZ has feed issues. Some days it feeds and some days it doesn't with the same ammo. AHR had it and so did Triple River still no fix. The Kimber don't feed or eject good and it's been back to factory twice. Tried several different loads in the M70 but couldn't get close to accuracy of the other rifles. I have 5000.00 $ in these rifles and needless to say I'm not a happy camper. That being said after all the aggravation I found a used Merkel double in .500 Nitro for 9500.00$. I bought it, and man ,that sumbitch works. It is accurate, looks good, and so far no feed or ejection issues. It also came with claw scope mounts. Now I'm happy.

I'm sorry but this sounds like with all your problems, it sounds like operator error. No one, and I mean NO ONE has three rifles like yours and has those sorts of problems. I read one of your other posts where you stated you had the iron sight bottomed out and it shot 12" low. Sir, to raise the point of impact, you go the other way. Simply stated, I was born at night, not last night and you sound like a classic bullshit artist, a gun "collector" with a bunch of safe queens.
Post photos of all of these rifles, especially the Merkel you claim to own and let's see all of the animals you've shot on your safaris and other hunting trips.

 

[One Day...]

I'm sorry but this sounds like with all your problems, it sounds like operator error. No one, and I mean NO ONE has three rifles like yours and has those sorts of problems. I read one of your other posts where you stated you had the iron sight bottomed out and it shot 12" low. Sir, to raise the point of impact, you go the other way. Simply stated, I was born at night, not last night and you sound like a classic bullshit artist, a gun "collector" with a bunch of safe queens.
Post photos of all of these rifles, especially the Merkel you claim to own and let's see all of the animals you've shot on your safaris and other hunting trips.

I am a bit puzzled too but this uncommon streak of bad luck...

CZ are rough out of the factory, we all know that, but the .458 Lott is one of the easiest feeding cartridges there is, and I have a really, really hard time thinking that Wayne at AHR would return to a customer a rifle that does not feed. Same for Kimber. As to accuracy in the Win 70, yeah, there is occasionally a bad barrel out there, but they are so rare... Statistically speaking, this defies the odds, although anything is possible I guess...

Regarding the sights adjustment, Hogpatrol is of course right, unless bpcr meant that he has the FRONT iron sight bottomed out (?) but to the best of my knowledge, neither CZ, Kimber or Win have adjustable front sights. One can change the front sight blades, but not really adjust them, on those rifles...

If the defective CZ collects dust and takes space in the safe, I will happily buy it at wall-hanger price... seriously.

 

[bruce moulds]

i measured once, cut twice and it was still too short.
i brought the sight down and it still shot low.

 

[One Day...]

i measured once, cut twice and it was still too short.
i brought the sight down and it still shot low.

It is not unheard of Bruce, because we all look through iron sights differently. This is why the Brits used to take rifle & client to the range and progressively file down the V of the rear sight to accommodate each client's way of looking through the sights.

In your case (gun shooting low), there are two options:

1. Please do not be offended by this first option, but are you looking at the front sight the way it is meant to be used? What I mean is that on a DG gun you are not supposed to just have the top of the front sight flush with the bottom of the rear sight V, you want to have the entire front bead (it should be round) loosely resting and visible in the rear V, and covering the spot you aim at (i.e. do not use a 6 o'clock aim). If your front sight does not have a distinct round bead (some are just a blade with a square top: the so-called partridge sight), you need to replace it. Partridge sights are great for target shooting, not not adapted to DG rifles. New England Custom Gun has a lot of options at: https://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/Gun_Services/Front_Sights.asp
2. If you have a correct front sight with a bead and use it correctly, all you need is a taller rear sight. If your rear sight is not adjustable (so called fixed express sight), then you can get a taller one and replace it. New England Custom Gun has a lot of options at: https://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/Gun_Services/Rear_Sights.asp

The bottom line is that iron sights should not be taken for granted from the factory. The most common sights adjustment on DG guns is for folks to put taller or shorter front sights to get the gun to shoot the way they look through the sights (for example CZ sells a whole collection of different front sight heights at https://shop.cz-usa.com/cz-products/rifles/sights/centerfire). The other classic adjustment is for older shooters to gradually increase the diameter of the front bead as we gradually lose the ability to see smaller beads at the end of the barrel...

 

[bruce moulds]

but if it shoots low on the lowest setting, it might be worth raising the sight.

 

[One Day...]

but if it shoots low on the lowest setting, it might be worth raising the sight.

We need to be specific in such statements as there are two sights (front and rear) and each has its own and opposite effect:
- shoot low: lower the front sight or raise the rear sight
- shoot high: raise the front sight or lower the rear sight

By the way, this is a very fitting discussion within this thread as this is another rarely perceived advantage of the CZ: they have REAL iron sights.

1. integral island mounted rear sight (Will not fall of the gun. Oh yes it happens!)
2. barrel band mounted front sight (Will not fall of the gun. Oh yes it happens!)
3. easily replaceable front sight of various heights to adjust for elevation (https://shop.cz-usa.com/cz-products/rifles/sights/centerfire)
4. easily drift adjustable rear sight to adjust for direction
5. folding blades for longer distances

In my experience with over a dozen different ZKK / CZ (mine and friend's) they come from the factory with iron sights actually sighted with a mid-size front sight and I have yet to see one that could not come into the X ring with a slightly taller or shorter front sight as offered by CZ.

By comparison, many if us have seen many high $$ 'custom guns' were iron sights were only an ornamental afterthought and were impossible to regulate due to rear island and/or front ramp too high or too low etc. I also saw with my own eyes a screw-mounted front ramp and a rear island (two different rifles) fly off the gun, one of them on a rifle that was probably not far from the $10,000 mark ;-)

Another check mark in the lowly CZ box LOL

 

[bruce moulds]

that is certaily a good point for cz.

 

[bpcr]

I'm sorry but this sounds like with all your problems, it sounds like operator error. No one, and I mean NO ONE has three rifles like yours and has those sorts of problems. I read one of your other posts where you stated you had the iron sight bottomed out and it shot 12" low. Sir, to raise the point of impact, you go the other way. Simply stated, I was born at night, not last night and you sound like a classic bullshit artist, a gun "collector" with a bunch of safe queens.
Post photos of all of these rifles, especially the Merkel you claim to own and let's see all of the animals you've shot on your safaris and other hunting trips.

Front sight adjustment on the Kimber buddy and I will send pictures. Never said I went to Africa yet. And, I don't have time for bullshit.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Front sight adjustment on the Kimber buddy and I will send pictures. Never said I went to Africa yet. And, I don't have time for bullshit.

We don't either so quit shoveling it.

 

[bpcr]

I'm sorry but this sounds like with all your problems, it sounds like operator error. No one, and I mean NO ONE has three rifles like yours and has those sorts of problems. I read one of your other posts where you stated you had the iron sight bottomed out and it shot 12" low. Sir, to raise the point of impact, you go the other way. Simply stated, I was born at night, not last night and you sound like a classic bullshit artist, a gun "collector" with a bunch of safe queens.
Post photos of all of these rifles, especially the Merkel you claim to own and let's see all of the animals you've shot on your safaris and other hunting trips.

Mr. Hogpatrol,
Rifles from top to bottom in the order they were purchased
1. CZ Safari Magnum .458 Win Mag converted to .458 Lott
2.Winchester M70 Portugal Made .458 Win Mag
3. Kimber Caprivi .458 Lott
4. Merkel Double .500 Nitro

OK men and any ladies,
Which one do you think will do the best job with less problems ?

 

[mdwest]

I can’t answer that question about your rifles...

But I can attest to owning a Win 70 classic in 375 H&H that has been flawless right out of the box... and a custom M98 in 416 Taylor that feeds and shoots like a dream...

And I’ve got less than $1k in each of them...

The $10k requirement is a fallacy...

There are plenty of rifles that will easily meet all requirements for 1/4 of that... and more than a few that will do it for well less than a grand..

 

[Hogpatrol]

Mr. Hogpatrol,
Rifles from top to bottom in the order they were purchased
1. CZ Safari Magnum .458 Win Mag converted to .458 Lott
2.Winchester M70 Portugal Made .458 Win Mag
3. Kimber Caprivi .458 Lott
4. Merkel Double .500 Nitro

OK men and any ladies,
Which one do you think will do the best job with less problems ?View attachment 260955

The top three in someone else's hands.

 

[bpcr]

The top three in someone else's hands.

Well I tell you what I'll do,
I'll sell you the top three rifles with all the bullets and brass and reloading dies for 4000.00$. Then you can tell me how great they work.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Well I tell you what I'll do,
I'll sell you the top three rifles with all the bullets and brass and reloading dies for 4000.00$. Then you can tell me how great they work.

Nah, you keep them. Wouldn't want to prevent you from bragging you own all these elephant guns you'll never hunt.

 

[WAB]

bpcr, your posts are out of control. There is a ton of experience available to you on this forum. A little respect for those with far more experience than you might actually help you resolve the issues you are having with these rifles. If you don’t want to tap into the knowledge base available here, WHY ARE YOU ON THIS SITE???

 

[bpcr]

bpcr, your posts are out of control. There is a ton of experience available to you on this forum. A little respect for those with far more experience than you might actually help you resolve the issues you are having with these rifles. If you don’t want to tap into the knowledge base available here, WHY ARE YOU ON THIS SITE???

I have the utmost respect for everyone here. If a person on this forum can get a 1200.00 DG rifle that works great my hat's off to them. It just didn't work for me. I have some small caliber bolt guns in CZ and Winchester , assorted AR 15's, 1911 Kimbers , S&W revolvers, and assorted autoloader rifles that I paid as much are more for but they work with no problems. I just feel that if I personally get a DG rifle that's gonna work under all circumstances I'll be glad to pay the five digits and not look back. If I offended anyone I apologize.

 

[IvW]

Mr. Hogpatrol,
Rifles from top to bottom in the order they were purchased
1. CZ Safari Magnum .458 Win Mag converted to .458 Lott
2.Winchester M70 Portugal Made .458 Win Mag
3. Kimber Caprivi .458 Lott
4. Merkel Double .500 Nitro

OK men and any ladies,
Which one do you think will do the best job with less problems ?View attachment 260955

1, 2 or 3.

Personally I would go with 1 or 2, as I do not like the 458WM.

 

[One Day...]

Front sight adjustment on the Kimber.

It seems really unlikely Kimber would deliver a rifle with iron sights that cannot be regulated. I personally have never shot a Caprivi, but they generally have a good reputation...

Is it possible that the point discussed with bruce moulds earlier could help you bpcr?

On a DG rifle you are not supposed to just see the top of the front sight flush with the bottom of the rear sight V (like on a handgun - left illustration), and you are not supposed to take a 6 o'clock aim (like on a handgun, or an AR - center illustration), you want to have the entire front bead loosely resting and fully visible in the rear V, and covering the spot you aim at (right illustration).

You would not be the first bpcr, nor would you be the last, to line up the front sight "pistol style" or to take a 6 o'clock aim with a DG rifle, and it would really not be your fault if nobody explained it to you, which is the value of this forum ;-)

Think more in term of shotgun sight picture when using a DG rifle: cover the target with the front bead.

CZ Safari Magnum .458 Win Mag converted to .458 Lott

There might be a hint in this statement ;-)

I do not know who did the Win to Lott conversion on your CZ, but it takes more than just pushing a reamer into the chamber. Because the .458 Win Mag is (so) short, it is a notorious finicky feeder in non-tuned .375 H&H length actions. To feed well the .458 Win Mag, the .375 H&H length feeding rails must be adjusted. This geometry is particular to the Win Mag. So, if you have a well feeding Win Mag, opening the chamber to Lott length without modifying the feed ramp/rails is a classic mistake resulting in temperamental feeding of the Lott... Nothing that a good gunsmith cannot address, but there IS a point when it is a lot more difficult to add material to the ramp/rails than it was to remove it...

Which one do you think will do the best job with less problems?

Classic question impossible to answer ;-)

Define "best job"... 25 yd elephant: the double .500 NE; 100 yd buffalo: one of the .458 Lott; 50 yd leopard or lion: let us be tolerant here and create a niche for the .458 Win but truth be told I am not sure why one would own a .458 Win when also owning a .458 Lott, especially since the Lott can fire perfectly well the Win ammo...

The 50 year old .458 Win ammo issues (compressed loads agglomerating in the heat and failing to fully ignite) have been resolved a looooooonnng time ago, but legends die hard, so there are folks out there who dislike the Win Mag. Truth be told it is a fine cartridge, but truth be further told the Lott is better in every respect ... except recoil, which may (?) be why the Win still has a following, not to mention the gezillions rifles so chambered that have not been opened up to Lott...

I hope this helps...