Is the .375 caliber minimum for dangerous game outdated?

[TOBY458]

I have used a .375 a fair bit over the years. 2019 was my first experience with the 9.3x62. I am the first to admit that my data set is limited, however I honestly couldn’t tell the difference on buffalo.

My .375 is shooting a 300 gr A-Frame at 2500 fps.

My 9.3x62 is shooting a 286 gr A-Frame at 2400 fps.

I wouldn’t consider either a good choice as a charge stopper, however either appear up to the task for a well placed first shot on buffalo.

I personally shoot a .458 Lott for buffalo, but as to legal minimums on DG, I would think that inclusion of the 9.3x62, 9.3x64 and 9.3x74 as legal DG calibers in all countries would make a lot of sense.

My 9.3x62 (Rigby Highland Stalker) is a much more manageable rifle for my wife.

I assume your wife isn't on AH? I mean....you just referred to her rifle as "your rifle".

 

[WAB]

I assume your wife isn't on AH? I mean....you just referred to her rifle as "your rifle".

you are a very observant man!

 

[IvW]

@IvW
I personally use and have preferred a .458 WM ( Winchester Magnum ) for all of my dangerous game hunting , but a client hunter in South Africa ( who is being backed up by a professional hunter ) would not have a problem in using a .338 WM against ( at the very least ) lions and Cape buffalo . And I am not advocating that the professional hunter should finish off dangerous game which is wounded by his client . But the objective of a professional hunter and a client hunter are different :
- A professional hunter needs to sort out game which is either escaping or charging . Ideal shot placement is not practically possible and people who do this sort of thing for a living , typically favor one of the .450 bores or larger .
- A client hunter’s objective is to kill a game animal with the first shot . After his professional hunter has put him in a position to place the perfect shot .

In the context of a client hunter , a .338 Winchester Magnum and one of the modern 250 grain bullets ( such as Nosler Partition , Swift A Frame , Rhino Solid Shank or Barnes TSX ) would be perfectly acceptable for sorting out a lion or a Cape buffalo . It would offer little ( if any ) disadvantage over what a .375 H&H Magnum has to offer .

And I do personally know people who have successfully used a .338 WM in South Africa to successfully take multiple lions , Cape buffalo and even African elephant ( in a country where it was legal to do so at the time ) .The elephants were taken with 250 grain hand loaded Hornady round nosed steel jacketed solids . I can readily provide the names and references of the people and details of the hunts , should anyone wish .

PS : For those who hunt dangerous game alone , I recommend at least one of the .400 bores and preferably one of the .450 bores .

So you know people who have hunted multiple lions and Cape buffalo with a smaller than legal caliber 338 WM as well as African Elephant(which country was that?)...the elephants that is...."I can readily provide the names and references of the people and details of the hunts , should anyone wish" That could be interesting....." .

you also say"would not have a problem in using a .338 WM against ( at the very least ) lions and Cape buffalo" - main problem with that is that it is illegal...

Have no idea why anybody would recommend using an illegal caliber for hunting DG........especially elephant...

"It would offer little ( if any ) disadvantage over what a .375 H&H Magnum has to offer"......Oh but it does it is illegal and does not make the minimum caliber required by law...

 

[Professor Mawla]

So you know people who have hunted multiple lions and Cape buffalo with a smaller than legal caliber 338 WM as well as African Elephant(which country was that?)...the elephants that is...."I can readily provide the names and references of the people and details of the hunts , should anyone wish" That could be interesting....." .

you also say"would not have a problem in using a .338 WM against ( at the very least ) lions and Cape buffalo" - main problem with that is that it is illegal...

Have no idea why anybody would recommend using an illegal caliber for hunting DG........especially elephant...

"It would offer little ( if any ) disadvantage over what a .375 H&H Magnum has to offer"......Oh but it does it is illegal and does not make the minimum caliber required by law...

First off , there are still countries in Africa where one is not bound to use the .375 H&H Magnum or larger calibres for hunting dangerous game . Have you ever heard of Mozambique ? You are South African , after all . And claim to be a professional hunter ( not that I doubt you ) .

Now , for the facts . I knew a couple of days back that you simply would not respectfully disagree . I have only been a member of these forums for a few weeks and I already have quite an idea of many of the posters and their etiquette ( or lack thereof ) . Some like to respectfully disagree , which is how civilized people behave . Others like to disprove and discredit anybody who does not share the same views on a topic as they do .

I wrote a letter to an acquaintance of mine . His name is John Coleman and he used to be a game ranger in Victoria Falls in the Eastern Cape . He later became a professional hunter and has more than 60 years of field experience , hunting in various countries of South Africa . He is also the person who mentored Jeff Rann and coached him to hunt dangerous game ( Jeff Rann is the professional hunter who has also guided the King of Spain on an elephant hunt ) . John is a close personal friend of the secretary of Dacca Rifle Club ( who hunted lion in South Africa with John many years ago ) and a true gentleman . A person whose level of actual field experience is rivaled only by his humility . And he has also heard of me and known about my Asiatic dangerous game hunting experiences since the 1990s ( through people who are very close to him and have hunted in my country as well ) when I first published my book . As we both have a close mutual friend , correspondence with him was no problem and I took his permission to reproduce this letter .

In short , he has successfully used the .338 Winchester Magnum to secure more African dangerous game than many people can hope to secure in their life times . The secretary of Dacca Rifle Club ( the person whose name I blurred out , due to privacy reasons ) also used a .338 Winchester Magnum to secure his African lion . It was John’s .338 Winchester Magnum which was used for that hunt and it was perfectly legal . I had heard about that hunt many years ago from the secretary and for this reason I knew that a .338 Winchester Magnum was used . I asked the secretary more about it and learnt that John had successfully used the same rifle to hunt a number of African dangerous game . As did many of his clients , over the years . So a couple of days ago , I decided to write to him and ask for his views on the .338 Winchester Magnum . He delivered , just like a gentleman always does .

Like me , he does not suggest it for sorting out wounded game ( which is the work of a professional hunter anyway ) but he does not have a problem with clients using it . Speaking for myself , I have personally used the .338 Winchester Magnum against American dangerous game and seen it being used against our East Bengal dangerous game , as well .

Before I conclude , I have one final thing to say . I know three others who have successfully used the .338 Winchester Magnum and 9.3x62 mm Mauser against the largest of African dangerous game . Legally .I can get their formal statements on this matter , as well . But If one letter is not enough evidence that I don’t talk garbage , then I suppose three more will not really a difference . And I do not think that I ever recommended using the .338 Winchester Magnum against African elephant . I merely stated that it has been done .

That you are a professional hunter , I have no doubt . Probably a highly competent one too , I am sure . But getting confrontational and implying that others are being untruthful in their claims ( simply because you do not agree with what they say ) is undignified and uncouth . Hunters from all across the globe come to this forum as recreation . Not to try to discredit others or undermine their experience because of trivial calibre related matters . Anybody who does that has a serious attitude problem . I think that I have been civil enough on my response .

 

[IvW]

338 WM is illegal for lion, cape buffalo as well as elephant in South Africa no matter who pulls the trigger simple as that and that is what I state....nothing to do with attitude....however you seem to advocate it as good and legal to use in South Africa would not have a problem using such....please please please get legal facts straight before suggesting such or saying know many people who have conducted such illegal hunts in South Africa

 

[Professor Mawla]

This is a soft copy sent by John to me , of one of his most successful clients using a .338 Winchester Magnum against a lion . The story got formally penned down in an issue of a South African magazine named Man Magnum ( the number of the issue escapes me at the moment , but I can ask John . I do not think it relevant though ) . I also have the photograph of the hunter and his trophy .

Man Magnum Magazine has a strict policy against allowing any articles which talk about illegal hunts . I know this because I have recently submitted some of my own hunting experiences and personal photographs to the magazine , as well . They will simply not allow it . What you are telling me is that Man Magnum Magazine ( one of South Africa’s most popular hunting magazines ) is publishing articles of illegal hunts , despite their stern policy against such behavior .

 

[IvW]

Zambia is not South Africa and you mentioned South Africa. Never mind....I shall rather refrain from further comment....

 

[BeeMaa]

"The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there." L. P. Hartley

 

[Professor Mawla]

In that context , yes . I made an error and that was my mistake and I apologize for any misunderstanding or miscommunication on my part . I should have specifically asked them which part of Africa and simply written “ African “ in my post . I am not South African , but I do not think that the dangerous game of South Africa is anatomically any different from other parts of Africa where using the .338 Winchester Magnum is / was legal against dangerous game ( such as Zambia ) .

My point stands as follows :
* I personally consider the .338 Winchester Magnum ( when used within reason ) to be an ACCEPTABLE ( not IDEAL ) calibre for clients to use against lion , leopard and for the initial shot on a Cape buffalo .
* The .338 Winchester Magnum has LEGALLY been used to take dangerous game in Africa , with success
* While a .375 H&H Magnum is undoubtedly the better choice , the .338 Winchester Magnum is acceptable IN MY OPINION .
* To answer the original poster’s question , I personally consider the .338 Winchester Magnum as an acceptable choice for a CLIENT hunter in Africa against SOME dangerous game .

Will I be going after African or ANY dangerous game with a .338 Winchester Magnum , anytime soon ? No . I will not . I prefer the .450 bores for dangerous game .

 

[Red Leg]

In that context , yes . I made an error and that was my mistake and I apologize for any misunderstanding or miscommunication on my part . I should have simply written “ African “ . I am not South African , but I do not think that the dangerous game of South Africa is anatomically any different from other parts of Africa where using the .338 Winchester Magnum is / was legal against dangerous game ( such as Zambia ) .

My point stands as follows :
* I personally consider the .338 Winchester Magnum ( when used within reason ) to be an ACCEPTABLE ( not IDEAL ) calibre for clients to use against lion , leopard and for the initial shot on a Cape buffalo .
* The .338 Winchester Magnum has LEGALLY been used to take dangerous game in Africa , with success
* While a .375 H&H Magnum is undoubtedly the better choice , the .338 Winchester Magnum is acceptable IN MY OPINION .
* To answer the original poster’s question , I personally consider the .338 Winchester Magnum as an acceptable choice for a client hunter in Africa against SOME dangerous game .

Will I be going after African or ANY dangerous game with a .338 Winchester Magnum , anytime soon ? No . I will not . I prefer the .450 bores for dangerous game .

I think where we are getting twisted in a knot is the use of the word "acceptable." That word implies that the item in question is appropriate, ethical, and legal in the context it will be used. @Professor Malwa has correctly pointed out that a .338 WM will kill dangerous game if used with an appropriate bullet. That is a valid conclusion, and as I noted earlier the .318 WR (also a .33 and also using a 250 gr bullet) was very popular before WWII for that very purpose.

However, as @IvW correctly notes, the fact that a .338 will work, doesn't make it "acceptable" as a dangerous game rifle in most African countries because it is illegal to use it for that purpose.

So the fact that J.A. Hunter and Harry Selby were impressed with the performance of the .318 WR or that Mr. Coleman used a .338 WM to great effect doesn't alter the acceptability of a .33 for dangerous game in most places in Africa today.

It would be unfortunate if a first time buffalo hunter, having read Hunter or Coleman, showed up in Johannesburg with his trusty .338.

 

[Professor Mawla]

I think where we are getting twisted in a knot is the use of the word "acceptable." That word implies that the item in question is appropriate, ethical, and legal in the context it will be used. @Professor Malwa has correctly pointed out that a .338 WM will kill dangerous game if used with an appropriate bullet. That is a valid conclusion, and as I noted earlier the .318 WR (also a .33 and also using a 250 gr bullet) was very popular before WWII for that very purpose.

However, as @IvW correctly notes, the fact that a .338 will work, doesn't make it "acceptable" as a dangerous game rifle in most African countries because it is illegal to use it for that purpose.

So the fact that J.A. Hunter and Harry Selby were impressed with the performance of the .318 WR or that Mr. Coleman used a .338 WM to great effect doesn't alter the acceptability of a .33 for dangerous game in most places in Africa today.

It would be unfortunate if a first time buffalo hunter, having read Hunter or Coleman, showed up in Johannesburg with his trusty .338.

@Red Leg
You are entirely right in your statement and thank you for taking the time to explain this . But I do wish to clear up one miscommunication ( perhaps on my part ? ) . The original poster asked an opinion based hypothetical question about whether or not the legal limit needs to be changed from .375 H&H Magnum to a smaller calibre . In my view , I find the .338 Winchester Magnum to be acceptable in the hands of a client hunter against some African dangerous game . When I mean that I find it to acceptable , I should have stressed that I did not mean “ LEGALLY ACCEPTABLE “ . I meant ACCEPTABLE IN TERMS Of BALLISTIC PERFORMANCE . Perhaps I should word my statement in a different manner to avoid any misunderstandings . Okay . Here goes :
In most African countries , the .375 H&H Magnum is currently the minimal LEGALLY ACCEPTABLE calibre for hunting dangerous game . But ( HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING ) if law makers were contemplating to have the legal limit lowered ( which is what I believe that the original poster asked ) , then I BELIEVE that they COULD have it lowered to .338 Winchester Magnum without any adverse consequences . Because in parts of Africa where it is / was legal to do so , a .338 Winchester Magnum has been successfully used against SOME African dangerous game with positive results .


I certainly would not be the one to go and petition for this change . Gentlemen such as yourself prefer the .375 H&H Magnum ; a time honored and versatile classic . I personally prefer a .458 Winchester Magnum . And some gentlemen prefer one of the .500 bores . All of which are more ideal against dangerous game than a .338 Winchester Magnum .

 

[Roller]

@Red Leg
You are entirely right in your statement and thank you for taking the time to explain this . But I do wish to clear up one miscommunication ( perhaps on my part ? ) . The original poster asked an opinion based hypothetical question about whether or not the legal limit needs to be changed from .375 H&H Magnum to a smaller calibre . In my view , I find the .338 Winchester Magnum to be acceptable in the hands of a client hunter against some African dangerous game . When I mean that I find it to acceptable , I should have stressed that I did not mean “ LEGALLY ACCEPTABLE “ . I meant ACCEPTABLE IN TERMS Of BALLISTIC PERFORMANCE . Perhaps I should word my statement in a different manner to avoid any misunderstandings . Okay . Here goes :
In most African countries , the .375 H&H Magnum is currently the minimal LEGALLY ACCEPTABLE calibre for hunting dangerous game . But ( HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING ) if law makers were contemplating to have the legal limit lowered ( which is what I believe that the original poster asked ) , then I BELIEVE that they COULD have it lowered to .338 Winchester Magnum without any adverse consequences . Because in parts of Africa where it is / was legal to do so , a .338 Winchester Magnum has been successfully used against SOME African dangerous game with positive results .


I certainly would not be the one to go and petition for this change . Gentlemen such as yourself prefer the .375 H&H Magnum ; a time honored and versatile classic . I personally prefer a .458 Winchester Magnum . And some gentlemen prefer one of the .500 bores . All of which are more ideal against dangerous game than a .338 Winchester Magnum .

Professor Mawla,

You interpreted my question correctly and I greatly appreciate your thorough response based on your years of experience. I actually chose to pose my follow-on question: "What is a proper stopping rifle..." separately so as not to confuse the issue. You answered that inquiry as well. Thank-you.

 

[Certus]

338 WM is illegal for lion, cape buffalo as well as elephant in South Africa no matter who pulls the trigger simple as that and that is what I state....nothing to do with attitude....however you seem to advocate it as good and legal to use in South Africa would not have a problem using such....please please please get legal facts straight before suggesting such or saying know many people who have conducted such illegal hunts in South Africa

Legality is irrelevant in this topic. Read the first (original) post again and stop knit picking moot points. The question is regarding suitability/use in the modern day with suitable bullets.

 

[Professor Mawla]

Professor Mawla,

You interpreted my question correctly and I greatly appreciate your thorough response based on your years of experience. I actually chose to pose my follow-on question: "What is a proper stopping rifle..." separately so as not to confuse the issue. You answered that inquiry as well. Thank-you.

@Roller
The pleasure is mine . Happy hunting .

 

[318AE]

I was very interested to see how this conversation would progress. There may be some that are holding onto traditions, by maintain traditional standards. I doubted many on this forum would advocate for more (stringent) government rules and regulations.

There seems to be some shared opinion that something less than a 375 is sufficient for buffalo, provided it’s a well placed first shot, on a well positioned animal (broadside etc).

There seems to be different points of view as to the “charge stopping”. What beyond reliable straight line penetration on animals of poor position (ie breaking through boss and bone to get to brain and spine) constitutes good “charge stopping”? Is there an opinion on buffalo, that there is a “knockout effect” like Pondoro talked about on head shots to elephants that missed the brain?

It’s very curious to me - I’ve been fortunate to the in the company on some remarkably seasoned PH’s that used 375’s, similar to Wally Johnson’s 375 M70 currently for sale.

 

[Professor Mawla]

I was very interested to see how this conversation would progress. There may be some that are holding onto traditions, by maintain traditional standards. I doubted many on this forum would advocate for more (stringent) government rules and regulations.

There seems to be some shared opinion that something less than a 375 is sufficient for buffalo, provided it’s a well placed first shot, on a well positioned animal (broadside etc).

There seems to be different points of view as to the “charge stopping”. What beyond reliable straight line penetration on animals of poor position (ie breaking through boss and bone to get to brain and spine) constitutes good “charge stopping”? Is there an opinion on buffalo, that there is a “knockout effect” like Pondoro talked about on head shots to elephants that missed the brain?

It’s very curious to me - I’ve been fortunate to the in the company on some remarkably seasoned PH’s that used 375’s, similar to Wally Johnson’s 375 M70 currently for sale.

@318AE
In order to instantly stop a charging Cape buffalo / Gaur / water buffalo with a .375 H&H Magnum , the following method is possible : You wait until the bovine is less than five yards away from you and it will now lower it’s head in order to impale you with it’s horns . You can take a frontal brain shot now , under the boss . Body shots at a charging Cape buffalo / Gaur / water buffalo with a .375 H&H Magnum are also possible with MODERN controlled expansion semi soft nosed 300 grain ( or heavier ) bullets ( such as the South African Rhino Solid Shank ) . But I would always recommend a larger calibre . Harry Selby used a .416 Rigby employing a 410 grain bullet ( Harry preferred Federal’s Trophy Bonded Bear Claw and Sledgehammer Solid ) , but he also owned a .450 NE ( Nitro Express ) double rifle for following wounded Cape buffalo and elephant in thick foliage . For rogue elephant bulls and Gaur and marauding Royal Bengal tigers , I also prefer one of the .450 bores which employs a 500 grain bullet . My personal favorite is the .458 Winchester Magnum because I have been using one since 1976 with really successful results ( keeping the velocity to 2130 fps or feet per second ) . But today , there are a number of improved .450 bores on the market . These include the .450 Rigby , .450 Dakota and ( most commonly ) the .458 Lott . While the .458 Winchester Magnum is perfectly adequate for any dangerous game animal on earth , these improved .450 bores outshine it in terms of velocity . They can push a 500 grain bullet at anywhere up to 2350 fps with ease . People also prefer these to a .458 Winchester Magnum because it is more convenient to hand load to a suitably high velocity without needing to resort to duplex loads or compressing the powder charge .

Larger calibres really come into their own , when body shots need to be taken at charging dangerous game . Aside from punching larger wound cavities ( which accelerate blood loss and cause the animal to hemorrhage ) , a heavier bullet used for a body shot aids in delivering more shock to the animal’s central nervous system ; provided that the velocity is adequate . In a .458 Winchester Magnum ( which is what I exclusively use ) , this should not be less than 2130 fps .

And one more thing . Solid bullets in a .375 H&H Magnum should never be used for body shots on charging Cape buffalo / Gaur / water buffalo . It produces too small a wound cavity to kill the animal quickly . A wounded Gaur which has been shot through the heart by a .375 calibre 300 grain solid bullet will live for up to 18 minutes , even after getting shot . That is long enough for it to seriously injure or even kill members of the hunting team . When using solid bullets , step up in calibre in order to ensure larger wound cavities . For obvious reasons , a 500 grain .458 calibre bullet will cause larger wound cavities than a 300 grain .375 calibre bullet . For Cape buffalo and Australian water buffalo , I actually do not recommend solid bullets for body shots regardless of calibre . Only good quality soft nosed controlled expansion bullets . For Gaur ( which weigh 1360 kilograms and twice of a Cape buffalo or water buffalo ) , I only recommend solid 500 grain bullets of .450 bore ( or larger calibres , should you wish ) .

 

[Vashper]

As far as I remember, in the old RWs Nobel price lists,the 9, 3x64 cartridge with the UNI bullet was recommended for the African Buffalo, as well as the similar 375, whose bullet was the heaviest by half a gram (19 g - 19.5 g). Now the recommendations are more modest - they say simply "for heavy game-very good". In General, at least in Europe, the caliber 9, 3x64 was considered an analog of the 375, and not a step down. And if my sclerosis does not fail me, cartridges with a solid bullet in this caliber were recommended for the elephant.

 

[NewForester]

I have enjoyed this thread!

 

[Red Leg]

@318AE
In order to instantly stop a charging Cape buffalo / Gaur / water buffalo with a .375 H&H Magnum , the following method is possible : You wait until the bovine is less than five yards away from you and it will now lower it’s head in order to impale you with it’s horns . You can take a frontal brain shot now , under the boss . Body shots at a charging Cape buffalo / Gaur / water buffalo with a .375 H&H Magnum are also possible with MODERN controlled expansion semi soft nosed 300 grain ( or heavier ) bullets ( such as the South African Rhino Solid Shank ) . But I would always recommend a larger calibre . Harry Selby used a .416 Rigby employing a 410 grain bullet ( Harry preferred Federal’s Trophy Bonded Bear Claw and Sledgehammer Solid ) , but he also owned a .450 NE ( Nitro Express ) double rifle for following wounded Cape buffalo and elephant in thick foliage . For rogue elephant bulls and Gaur and marauding Royal Bengal tigers , I also prefer one of the .450 bores which employs a 500 grain bullet . My personal favorite is the .458 Winchester Magnum because I have been using one since 1976 with really successful results ( keeping the velocity to 2130 fps or feet per second ) . But today , there are a number of improved .450 bores on the market . These include the .450 Rigby , .450 Dakota and ( most commonly ) the .458 Lott . While the .458 Winchester Magnum is perfectly adequate for any dangerous game animal on earth , these improved .450 bores outshine it in terms of velocity . They can push a 500 grain bullet at anywhere up to 2350 fps with ease . People also prefer these to a .458 Winchester Magnum because it is more convenient to hand load to a suitably high velocity without needing to resort to duplex loads or compressing the powder charge .

Larger calibres really come into their own , when body shots need to be taken at charging dangerous game . Aside from punching larger wound cavities ( which accelerate blood loss and cause the animal to hemorrhage ) , a heavier bullet used for a body shot aids in delivering more shock to the animal’s central nervous system ; provided that the velocity is adequate . In a .458 Winchester Magnum ( which is what I exclusively use ) , this should not be less than 2130 fps .

And one more thing . Solid bullets in a .375 H&H Magnum should never be used for body shots on charging Cape buffalo / Gaur / water buffalo . It produces too small a wound cavity to kill the animal quickly . A wounded Gaur which has been shot through the heart by a .375 calibre 300 grain solid bullet will live for up to 18 minutes , even after getting shot . That is long enough for it to seriously injure or even kill members of the hunting team . When using solid bullets , step up in calibre in order to ensure larger wound cavities . For obvious reasons , a 500 grain .458 calibre bullet will cause larger wound cavities than a 300 grain .375 calibre bullet . For Cape buffalo and Australian water buffalo , I actually do not recommend solid bullets for body shots regardless of calibre . Only good quality soft nosed controlled expansion bullets . For Gaur ( which weigh 1360 kilograms and twice of a Cape buffalo or water buffalo ) , I only recommend solid 500 grain bullets of .450 bore ( or larger calibres , should you wish ) .

I do not pretend to know anything about charging Gaur, but the method you suggest for cape buffalo is not what I or most people I know would do.

A cape buffalo begins his charge head up, lowering it at the last instant to hook and batter his target. Catch him when it is up and it is relatively easy to reach the brain or spinal column with a shot in the snout. A little high it will go in around the eyes and under the boss, and little low it has an excellent chance of severing the spine at the base of the skull. Either shuts him down instantly.

If you wait until he lowers his head in the final few feet, it is impossible to put a bullet under the boss. At such an angle, one fired just ahead of the boss will simply range through his sinus cavity - thoroughly irritating him I suppose if he wasn't mad enough already. At that late point, one has to either drive a bullet through the boss to reach the brain or through the back of the neck/ or between the shoulders to break the spine.

Regardless of caliber, I would much rather that be my second and last rather desperate shot than my first.

 

[chashardy]

Is the 375 Caliber minimum for DG outdated?
No.