Importation of Lions (Worldwide)

[Vanguard2279]

FIRST, don't reply to the thread with any details. Please, message me. We all know the Anti's prowl this page.
I do not have a Lion to import nor have I hunted one. I have a couple friends who did and live in a country that theoretically allows the importation.
Due to an unfortunate and unnecessary delay in getting the skins to a Dip & Pack, the Lions have been in South Africa since May. In the intervening time, the trophy import issue heated up in their home country.
They have received the following request for information from CITES:

(1) Full details of the breeding facility (including the name and address of the facility, a description, and the date of establishment)
(2) The number and origin of the founder breeding stock, with date and details of acquisition.
(3) The size of current breeding stock in total number of individuals including the male/female ratio
(4) The origin of the parents of the specimens in this application including date of birth, the name and address of breeder, date and details of acquisition
(5) The year of first successful breeding
(6) Whether the breeder has bred this species to F2 generation
(7) Whether the breeding stock has been augmented with wild-taken individuals, and if so details of how many and when
(8) Full details of annual production
(9) The date of birth and sex of the specimen to be imported.

Supposedly, this requirement for information has been in place for a long time. The Lions were hunted on a Reserve that is supposedly one of twelve accredited CBL-hunting farms. It would stand to reason that the owners of this Reserve would have dealt with this inquiry many times before for clients from countries that allow captive-bred Lions to be imported. The manager of this reserve has been surprisingly uncooperative and unwilling to provide information. This has made us question a number of things about the source of the Lions.

Who has imported a Lion (or knows somebody who has) and was this information provided in a timely fashion from the Outfitter?

 

[johnnyblues]

Sounds like a problem brewing

 

[enysse]

Thanks for this post, it puts things in perspective. If you want to try to import the lions out of RSA, this would be good information to have up front! Otherwise you better just look at the price of the hunt, property size and other factors if you are not planning on not trying to export them out of Africa.

 

[cem rona ergin]

FIRST, don't reply to the thread with any details. Please, message me. We all know the Anti's prowl this page.
I do not have a Lion to import nor have I hunted one. I have a couple friends who did and live in a country that theoretically allows the importation.
Due to an unfortunate and unnecessary delay in getting the skins to a Dip & Pack, the Lions have been in South Africa since May. In the intervening time, the trophy import issue heated up in their home country.
They have received the following request for information from CITES:

(1) Full details of the breeding facility (including the name and address of the facility, a description, and the date of establishment)
(2) The number and origin of the founder breeding stock, with date and details of acquisition.
(3) The size of current breeding stock in total number of individuals including the male/female ratio
(4) The origin of the parents of the specimens in this application including date of birth, the name and address of breeder, date and details of acquisition
(5) The year of first successful breeding
(6) Whether the breeder has bred this species to F2 generation
(7) Whether the breeding stock has been augmented with wild-taken individuals, and if so details of how many and when
(8) Full details of annual production
(9) The date of birth and sex of the specimen to be imported.

Supposedly, this requirement for information has been in place for a long time. The Lions were hunted on a Reserve that is supposedly one of twelve accredited CBL-hunting farms. It would stand to reason that the owners of this Reserve would have dealt with this inquiry many times before for clients from countries that allow captive-bred Lions to be imported. The manager of this reserve has been surprisingly uncooperative and unwilling to provide information. This has made us question a number of things about the source of the Lions.

Who has imported a Lion (or knows somebody who has) and was this information provided in a timely fashion from the Outfitter?

Due to an unfortunate and unnecessary delay in getting the skins to a Dip & Pack,...your problem started here ..
The answer to why you are having problems is with the taxidermist.. all the necessary information that you have listed above is not a problem for your outfitter to provide .. there must be another reason .. in some farms you are allowed to breed or keep the lions but not allowed to hunt them .. that might also be the problem .. what ever your real problem is ..the taxidermy shop has the real answer to it ..

 

[Vanguard2279]

Due to an unfortunate and unnecessary delay in getting the skins to a Dip & Pack,...your problem started here ..
The answer to why you are having problems is with the taxidermist.. all the necessary information that you have listed above is not a problem for your outfitter to provide .. there must be another reason .. in some farms you are allowed to breed or keep the lions but not allowed to hunt them .. that might also be the problem .. what ever your real problem is ..the taxidermy shop has the real answer to it ..

Please explain how the answer lies with the taxidermist. I appreciate your response.
And to be clear, they are not my lions. I hunted buffalo and sable. Those are at Highveld.
The outfitter advises the farm that he is bringing people to hunt Lions.
The farm manager orders them from a breeder. These in particular came from the Free State or from the farm owner's off-site breeding facility. While I am not sure of everything that SA requires to be a "certified" hunting or breeding facility, it would seem that this information would be part of it.
For Americans who are hunting but not planning to import, the need to provide this information would not arise.
So, back to my original question: Has anyone imported sport-hunted captive-bred lions after hunting them in South Africa? If so, did you have to deal with the questionnaire from CITES?

 

[Vanguard2279]

@enysse : That's how I felt about it. This whole thing has turned into a shitshow. Nobody seems to have the information or is willing to share it if they do. The only person who would have the information requested would be the breeder. Without it, the Lions aren't leaving South Africa. My friends are starting to accept that.
We had stopped at Highveld Taxidermy so I could talk to them about what I wanted done with my Buffalo and Sable. The Highveld representatives told my friends that they were going to have a difficult time importing the Lions into their home country.
Highveld is not their dip & pack facility.

 

[cem rona ergin]

Please explain how the answer lies with the taxidermist. I appreciate your response.
And to be clear, they are not my lions. I hunted buffalo and sable. Those are at Highveld.
The outfitter advises the farm that he is bringing people to hunt Lions.
The farm manager orders them from a breeder. These in particular came from the Free State or from the farm owner's off-site breeding facility. While I am not sure of everything that SA requires to be a "certified" hunting or breeding facility, it would seem that this information would be part of it.
For Americans who are hunting but not planning to import, the need to provide this information would not arise.
So, back to my original question: Has anyone imported sport-hunted captive-bred lions after hunting them in South Africa? If so, did you have to deal with the questionnaire from CITES?

The taxidermist will know the real story behind the problem .. usually the outfitter and the taxidermist deal with CITES ..

 

[Vanguard2279]

The taxidermist will know the real story behind the problem .. usually the outfitter and the taxidermist deal with CITES ..

I appreciate that. However, the outfitter has died. The farm manager is the one with the ability to contact the source of the Lions. The Dip & Pack have not been much help to clients.
I believe that importation is not going to happen. I suppose this thread serves the purpose of alerting hunters to what they will have to deal with if they live in a country that will allow the import of Lions.

 

[Ridgewalker]

This must be terribly frustrating to your UK friends especially if they paid high prices so they could export them! It seems like a large number of clients have had a good deal of problems since the outfitter’s death. Sad situation.