If the 9.3x62 became the new legal minimum?

[PerH]

Brenneke

The German Gun Collectors Association has an 8 page reprint of the 1930’s Brenneke Export Catalog available for purchase. Click here to go to their site and view the Catalogs they offer The following images are courtesy of my friend Fredrik Franzen The following article by Harald Wolf appeared...

germanhuntingguns.com

A very good article about the 9,3x64 here

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi Antho,

Very good experience about same cartridge/different barrel lenght. Of course, in my opinion, it should be considered valid only for this case.
The differences between 9,3x62 vs 9,3x64 vs 375 H&H (must be said again: "all other factors being the same"), are simple physics or thermodynamics, not a belief.
Best!

CF

 

[50Gunner]

Hello Clodo,

Sorry, .com dummy here and don't have the talent to post pics, my 9.3x62mm is loaned out to a friend right now, he's off on some hunts with it, just as well, it's not the beauty it once was.

You see, the shipping goons broke the beautiful English walnut stock at the wrist I had made for it, that and the beautiful Rust bluing are but a memory, however, all is not lost, I sent the barreled action, bottom metal, scope rings and bases to Brown Precision.

He built a beautiful rock solid syn stock and coated ALL metal parts in teflon, the rifle is now an all weather, any game animal, anywhere the world over hunting rig, I did have them retain the beautiful jeweling on the bolt body, claw extractor and extractor retention ring, as well as the magazine box follower.

It's 1.75x6 Leupold scope will guide those big Woodleighs into big game animals out to a long 350 yards, so all remains more than good, I'll have the rifle back in a couple months, will re-check zero, may even use it and the big 320gr Woodleighs on some whitetails this season.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Thank you 50Gunner

Hope the rifle will performs at your expectations !

Good luck!

CF

 

[50Gunner]

You're most welcome Sir, and thank You as well.

 

[AZDAVE]

When you load the 9.3x62-9.3x64-375H&H to the same pressure levels with bullets they were designed for(9.3=286gr and 375=300gr). The difference is within 150fps . At DG ranges with the bullet in the proper shot placement no animal on earth will know the difference.

 

[grand veneur]

When you load the 9.3x62-9.3x64-375H&H to the same pressure levels with bullets they were designed for(9.3=286gr and 375=300gr). The difference is within 150fps . At DG ranges with the bullet in the proper shot placement no animal on earth will know the difference.

It is certain that at close ranges, the difference in the effectiveness of 9,3mm and 375 caliber cartridges can be comparable. Nevertheless, one should consider the impact velocity of a bullet, which is a more important parameter than the muzzle velocity. Many bullet failures are due to a lack of impact velocity sometime in relation to a lower muzzle velocity. The higher the muzzle velocity is, the more reserve one has in terms of bullet effectiveness, especially if shooting at longer distances is necessary. 150 fps more muzzle velocity can make a difference. In this respect, the cartridge 9,3x64 offers, due to a better external ballistic than that of the cartridge 9,3x62, significant advantages as a multipurpose cartridge.

 

[AZDAVE]

@grand veneur I agree on longer shots over 250 meters but this thread is about "If 9.3x62 was the new legal minimum." So to me that means dangerous game where the longest shot is going to 75 Meter-ish on leopard, hippo, and croc, Buff, lion, and elephant are all going to be under 50 meters. So the ballistic difference is a mute point in my book. Shoot which ever of the 3 you have the most confidence in.

 

[grand veneur]

@grand veneur I agree on longer shots over 250 meters but this thread is about "If 9.3x62 was the new legal minimum." So to me that means dangerous game where the longest shot is going to 75 Meter-ish on leopard, hippo, and croc, Buff, lion, and elephant are all going to be under 50 meters. So the ballistic difference is a mute point in my book. Shoot which ever of the 3 you have the most confidence in.

Sure, if you consider shooting distances of up to 50 meters maximum, there are hardly any noticeable differences. But there is room for discussion about shooting distances on DG always being under 50 meters.

 

[50Gunner]

Gentlemen,

This is where the 9.3x62mm really shines for me, went and grabbed my old load book with sight drops.

+3 at 100 yards with the 320gr Woodleigh PP bullet leaving the muzzle at 2424 fps again zeros around 215 yards, 9 inches low at 300 yards and 18 inches down at 350 yards.

At 350 yards that bullet is still traveling in excess of Woodleighs minimum impact rec of 1800 fps, bullet impacts are 0, +1 and +2 inches at 25, 50 and 75 yards, Buffalo at the end of the barrel to trophy Bull Eland, Kudu, Moose and Elk of a lifetime at 350 yards is more than well covered.

I gave my rifle and load a 7 inch vital zone window, that's a full 290 yards maximum point blank zero range, quite a handy little do it all package men.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi 50Gunner,

This is my scope sight seting for ALL my big game rifles and hunting grounds: 7x57, 30-06, 9,3x62 and 375 H&H.

CF

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hello grand veneur,

Agree with you, specially in the velocity difference between the 9,3x62 and 375 H&H with comparable bullet weights. There are at least 200 f/s. To me it is a significant difference for medium-long range hunting.

CF

 

[AZDAVE]

I am just using my experience and conversations with a number of PH and outfitters for the 50 yard average. My wife shot her buffalo at 72 yards I shot mine at 22 yards, my lion was at 28 yards. The hippo was at 48 meters, my wife’s croc was at 70 yards. My leopard was 68 meters. I back a friend up on his elephant, my back up shot was 25 yards. My bouncing between meters and yards is based on if I took the range (yards) or my Ph (meters). If you want to use 100 yards/meters as average. When I compair my 9.3x62 300gr 2475fps most accurate load to my 300 gr 275 2615fps most accurate load in my rifles. The difference in impact is less that 1/2 in difference of impact.

Over the years I looked at the 9.3x64 and 370 sake. And could justify the added expense of a second round. Plus the logistics of have x62 brass and dies readily available in the US and the other two very difficult to find.

So just use the round that works for you as the 9.3 and 375’s are very good rounds.

 

[IvW]

9.3x74R O/U double, 2 triggers, ejectors, scoped.....

 

[AZDAVE]

My 9.3x74 is a SxS with a red dot that is my favorite rifle I own. I would also be very happy with a O/U in 9.3x74.

 

[One Day...]

When you load the 9.3x62-9.3x64-375H&H to the same pressure levels with bullets they were designed for (9.3=286gr and 375=300gr). The difference is within 150fps . At DG ranges with the bullet in the proper shot placement no animal on earth will know the difference.

I totally agree with the above, but with caveats that cleary outline that the 9.3x62, while by general consensus meeting the bare minimum practical requirements for Buffalo, does not fully compare with the .375 H&H and 9.3x64, which are true ballistic equals.

Said caveats are:

1. The 9.3x62 only "compares" at a lower buller weight, although, admittedly, 5% does not make a huge difference, but at bare minimum level everything counts.
2. Despite a lower bullet weight, the 9.3x62 only "compares" at lower velocity, although, admittedly, 150 fps at the muzzle does not make a huge difference, but at bare minimum level everything counts, not to mention grand veneur's point at impact velocity.
3. The 9.3x62 lower energy resulting from the combination of the above only "compares" at shorter range, although, admittedly, DG is generally shot at short range, but second and third shot can be noticeably longer than 25 yards ... or shorter, in which case the point above about energy becomes very interesting...)
4. Much more important: the 9.3x62 only "compares" when herbivorous DG are limited to Buffalo. No one in their right mind generally considers the 9.3x62 OK on Elephant, Rhino, or Hippo.

So, will any "animal on earth know the difference" between a 9.3x62 286 gr TSX delivering 3,000 ft/lbs and a .375 H&H 300 gr TSX delivering 4,000 ft/lbs at 25 yards? I indeed suspect that few animals will, because it seems that 3,000 ft/lbs from a DG caliber still do the job, even if with zero safety margin.

But will an Elephant, Rhino, or Hippo know the difference between a 9.3x62 286 gr TSX delivering 2,500 ft/lbs and a .375 H&H 300 gr TSX delivering 3,500 ft/lbs at 100 yards? Oh yes I think they will, because 2,500 ft/lbs from a DG caliber is courting disaster.

The bottom line is that we all know that energy does not kill, but we also all know that energy is a convenient and quite accurate way to compare killing power when discussing cartridges that shoot identical bullets of similar weight and caliber. From this perspective there is no escaping the fact that the 9.3x62 delivers 1,000 ft/lbs or 25% less than the .375 H&H (3,200 vs. 4.200 ft/lbs at the muzzle).

The entire question, therefore, is for which animals is 3,000 ft/lbs at 25 yards sufficient?

Over 100 years of field experience seems to indicate a fairly unanimous consent that Buffalo is at the very upper limit of the enveloppe.

The 9.3x62 is good (heck, it is the DG caliber I selected for my wife!), but only because the .375 H&H is too much gun for her, and only because I stand by her with my .458 Lott in case that magical first bullet does not land where it should (it can happen...) OR unless the Buff does not get the memo that he is dead (it can happen too...).

So, should the 9.3x62 replace the .375 H&H as the legal minimum everywhere, my own vote is NO, it is not powerful enough on ALL animals in MOST reasonable circumstances. That is why Zimbabwe requires 5,300 Joule (3,900 ft/lbs) Minimum AND a caliber 9.2 mm (.366") Minimum for Class A Game (Elephant, Hippo, Buffalo), and I do not think that they historically developed these numbers at random

 

[BFaucett]

250 gr at 2,651 fps = 3,900 ft/lbs

286 gr at 2,495 fps = 3,952 ft/lbs

Cheers! Bob F.

 

[AZDAVE]

All three rounds are a solid fit for bear minimum DG rounds, in the right hands. In areas where DG exists and I am hunting PG I will usually have my x62 or a 375 in my hands for that "Oh Shit moment" when Mr Murphy is riding the shoulder of the buffalo talking to his evil twin. This thread started as "If the 9.3x62 became the new legal min" and as most cases it devolves into a mathematical this is better than that one kinds event. Just human nature. I am sure the first cave men argued around the fire on if the spear of bow and arrow were better hunting tool.

If I am pursuing DG in most cases I will be carrying a 416 class rifle, if I don't thing that is enough, will step up to 458 class, then to 500 Class and finally to 577 class rifles. If the 577 isn't enough I will have to ask the PH to locate a couple RPG's to use as backup.

For me in the medium bores the 9.3x62 is my favorite followed my the 375H&H. I have no experience with the x64 due to logistics of shooting the round and availability of ammo or brass for it. Where I have a lifetime supply of the other two.

So make your selections on your requirements and what you available where you live. Each of these rounds has pluses and minuses as a all around entry level DG round. That being said all three have taken all of the big 5 at one point or another. I will leave on picture to as a reminder of "Oh Shit"

 

[One Day...]

View attachment 694625

250 gr at 2,651 fps = 3,900 ft/lbs

286 gr at 2,495 fps = 3,952 ft/lbs

Cheers! Bob F.

All three rounds are a solid fit for bear minimum DG rounds, in the right hands. In areas where DG exists and I am hunting PG I will usually have my x62 or a 375 in my hands for that "Oh Shit moment" when Mr Murphy is riding the shoulder of the buffalo talking to his evil twin. This thread started as "If the 9.3x62 became the new legal min" and as most cases it devolves into a mathematical this is better than that one kinds event. Just human nature. I am sure the first cave men argued around the fire on if the spear of bow and arrow were better hunting tool.

If I am pursuing DG in most cases I will be carrying a 416 class rifle, if I don't thing that is enough, will step up to 458 class, then to 500 Class and finally to 577 class rifles. If the 577 isn't enough I will have to ask the PH to locate a couple RPG's to use as backup.

For me in the medium bores the 9.3x62 is my favorite followed my the 375H&H. I have no experience with the x64 due to logistics of shooting the round and availability of ammo or brass for it. Where I have a lifetime supply of the other two.

So make your selections on your requirements and what you available where you live. Each of these rounds has pluses and minuses as a all around entry level DG round. That being said all three have taken all of the big 5 at one point or another. I will leave on picture to as a reminder of "Oh Shit"

Apologies if my intent was misconstrued BFaucett and AZDAVE, I am not down-talking the 9.3x62, I actually like it (as previously mentioned), but I do not endow it with extra-ordinary dispensation from the laws of physics.

The statement "At DG ranges with the bullet in the proper shot placement no animal on earth will know the difference" is true enough, but only with some serious caveats (very close and with heavy bullets), and no safety margin, as pointed out earlier. I guess that I was going straight for the bottom line, and went on addressing the conclusion that a number of less cognisant folks are often coming to: 9.3x62 ~= .375 H&H. This is not true.

In the same vein, I think that the statement "All three rounds are a solid fit for bear minimum DG rounds, in the right hands" also deserves some serious caveats as well. Based on 100 years of literature and the documented opinion of folks immensely more qualified than we are (at least than I am) "bare minimum DG round" certainly applies to the 9.3x62, but NOT to the .375 H&H and 9.3x64. It seems hard to argue this and lump them together in the same category. They are not.

Yes, I am well aware of "souped up" loads for the 9.3x62. Because in the energy calculation formula the velocity is squared, it is not a mystery to get to the magical 3,900 ft/lbs by reducing the bullet weight and pumping up the speed. But I have long wondered why emblematic offerings such as Swift's 286 gr AFrame load (2,396 fps advertised), Barnes' now discontinued 286 gr TSX load (2,355 fps advertised), Federal's 286 gr Woodleigh load (2,360 fps advertised), or Nosler's 286 gr Partition load (2,350 fps advertised), etc. are not loaded at the 2,500 fps level? Surely Swift, Barnes, Federal, Nosler, etc. are aware of the 5,300 Joule (3,900 ft/lbs) requirement, right?

And it would seem difficult to apply the usual explanation that the commercial loads are on the conservative side due to a lot of older rifles. To the best of my knowledge the CIP (European equivalent of SAAMI) specs for the 9.3x62 have not changed since its introduction (1905, Otto Bock), and the 9.3x62 was from the beginning designed for the immensely strong Mauser 98.

Be things as they may, yes the 9.3x62 can be loaded hotter (all rounds can), and yes its typical load of 286 gr @ ~2,350 fps advertised (the Barnes 286 gr TSX load clocks 2,250 fps in my Blaser barrel) is (barely) enough for Buffalo, but there is quite a bridge to cross to qualify the load as appropriate for all DG with a reasonable safety margin.

So, to answer more clearly the original question of the thread "if the 9-3x62 became the new legal minimum", then folks going DG hunting with commercial loads (and a lot of folks do!) would go hunting with a rifle ~25% less powerful than the current legal minimum requires, and with very little if any safety margin, and that is a fact.

Is it doable? Or course!!!

Is it desirable? It is certainly anyone's opinion, but apparently folks (again: immensely more experienced than we are) from the Kenya, Rhodesia, Tanganyika, etc. game departments deemed that it would NOT be desirable. I suspect that they were right...

Sure, legions of British and German colonists opened Africa with a 9.3x62 Mauser in hand, and they shot everything from Dik Dik to Elephant with it, so, yes, the 9.3x62 will do it all, but so will the 7x57, or even the 6.5x54 in olf pros' hands. As to Joe Doe Public, it is just like "the 6.5 Creedmoor is a great Elk round". Well, sometimes...

So, to the statement "make your selections on your requirements and what is available where you live" I would dare to add "and what is required by law where you are going hunting"

Botswana: minimum .375 caliber for dangerous game.
Namibia: minimum 5400 Joule (Elephant, Cape Buffalo, Rhino, Lion, etc.).
Tanzania: minimum .375 caliber for dangerous game.
Zambia: minimum .375 caliber for dangerous game.
Zimbabwe: minimum 5300 Joule and 9.3 mm AND .366 caliber (Elephant, Hippo, Buffalo).
South Africa: some (but not all) Provinces: minimum .375 caliber for dangerous game.
Central African Republic: minimum .375 caliber for dangerous game.

But to the best of my knowledge Mozambique has no minimum requirement so the 9.3x62 is legal on DG there

 

[IvW]

9.3x62 or 74R in an experienced hunters hands with the right bullets will kill anything on earth......many visiting huntets will be better off with these two....