I got my Model 70 Safari Express to feed (.416 Remington Magnum)

[postoak]

As for the cartridges having to be in a certain position. You simply cannot load the second cartridge with it pushed all the way back, with the rim, groove, and belt directly on top of the rim, groove, and belt on top of the first cartridge. What happens is the front of the cartridge dives down in the front. It looks like the ejector is getting in the way. This is why the first and third cartridges don't have this problem, the ejector is off to the left of them. But I was wrong about something, when you push the second cartridge to the rear it isn't seating against the block I mentioned, it is seating against the front of the ejector.

 

[fourfive8]

Got me? 1st pic is one round loaded and sitting on the right side of the magazine and held under the rail. It's base is situated lined up with the lower right quadrant of the bolt face. The 2nd pic is of two rounds loaded in a Win 70. The base of the 2nd round is staggered to the left side of the magazine and is sitting on the ejector which puts it slightly forward of the 1st round. That position has nothing to do with the belts of the two cartridges. The belt locations are only coincidental to the positioning of the cartridges.

Also, this post 64 M 70 action feeds and functions perfectly. It's a Super Express from the mid 90s in 375 HH.

 

[sestoppelman]

postoak, Take a picture.

 

[Ray B]

I must say, following this has gotten me REALLY confused.

 

[fourfive8]

postoak,
Here's a Win 70 bolt face with a loose ejector held in place for illustration purposes. The only other hang up I can think of could be the upper edge of the ejector, if it is really sharp, catching the 2nd cartridge base as it slides down over the ejector during loading. The arrow points to the upper edge of the ejector. Might put a small radius on that edge with a coarse stone. Won't affect the function of the ejector.

 

[postoak]

I'll take photos tomorrow, perhaps.

As for fourfive8's first photo, on my rifle the cartridge does not sit against the face of the bolt but rather the metal block below it. In fact, when my bolt is pulled all the way back as it would be when being loaded, the bolt face is perhaps 1/16" or 1/8" back of that metal block. And perhaps this is the problem as I'll explore below.

His second photo appears to show the ejector on top of the second cartridge but in fact the cartridge sits on top of the ejector on mine when it is place. Perhaps it is just an illusion in his photo.

I can now get the first cartridge to go in easily holding the rifle horizontally by not pushing the cartridge all the way back. It's seems pretty normal to just drop the cartridge in and have it be slightly forward. Going to the extra detail of making sure it is all the way back, in fact, screws things up. The rear binds and the nose dives down. So knowing that it is easy to get it to go down properly. The same is true of the second cartridge. So, I am satisfied with what I've got, it was just a matter of investigating the little details of how everything works.

BTW, my ejector is not shaped the same way as fourfive8's as shown in his 3rd paragraph. It is slanted in front and then horizontal for a section behind but I don't think this is the problem. If I take a screwdriver and press down on the ejector it moves down out of the way.

Okay, here's what I believe is the true issue. The back of the rail moves inward toward the centerline of the rifle at the back of the cartridge opening and this is what the cartridge is catching on. When I move the cartridge forward of this point then it will go in with no problem. It's almost as if my rifle is mis-manufactured and the bolt is going back a little further than it should. If I hold the bolt slightly forward then things work normally. I suppose I could have a gunsmith grind away that little section of rail.

fourfive8, do you see that section of the rail I am talking about? You might have to remove your bolt to see it.

 

[Ray B]

If the problem is that the bolt goes too far back before being stopped by the boltstop, possibly the boltstop is the problem. the boltstop is a stamped metal part that is easily replaced. I'd do that before having grinding done on the action.

 

[sestoppelman]

Agree with the above. Don't start mucking about with things you don't fully understand. It can get costly.

 

[One Day...]

A grand classic issue could be the sheet metal magazine box not properly positioned back in place when reassembling the rifle after disassembly. It has happened time and again

Another option could be the wrong ejector mounted in the rifle... Is this a used rifle?

when you push the second cartridge to the rear it isn't seating against the block I mentioned, it is seating against the front of the ejector.

The ejector should be flush with the rear of the magazine

Empty

1st round

2nd round

Without questioning the fact that postoak's rifle is having an issue, what is for sure is that it should load in any position, with eyes closed (more accurately: with eyes kept on the buffalo), and without any specific intricate presentation of the cartridges. This is a DG rifle intended to be used roughly in the bush, not a delicate piece of lab equipment...

The loading process that postoak describes may mitigate the issue, but it does not resolve the issue. The ONLY real solution is to understand what is wrong (because something is wrong here) and to fix it. Fast feeding the rounds in the living room is fine, but who knows what will happen under recoil, and whether the rifle will actually feed...

Keep the Dremel away, do not make things worse by guessing and starting to butcher the ramps. These are very delicate... It could be a machine tool burr on the rail, but I would get dang sure of it before starting removing metal...

By the way I am not convinced by the 'bolt going too far back' argument. How far the bolt goes back in the action has nothing to do with how cartridge are held in the magazine under the rails...

 

[One Day...]

Two different Win 70 CRF ejectors...

The reason I was asking "Is this a used rifle?" is that there are two different types of Win 70 ejectors, the "M" and the "H" models, and as I speculated above, the wrong ejector may be mounted in this rifle. There is, I guess, a possibility that the rifle could come with the wrong ejector from the factory... Heck! that .300 Wby limited run Win 70 Classic Stainless pictured above came from the factory with a safety that could not engage, however hard I tried. I had to take it apart and adjust the camming surface to make it work. So, I guess, everything is possible. So much for the legend of the Win 70 ready for Africa out of the box, so often perpetuated by CZ 550 critics

The "M" ejector is visibly longer. It is intended to be used in non-full length magnum Win 70 CRF that use sheet metal magazine boxes with a rear spacer to accommodate standard length cartridges (.338 Win, .300 Win, 7 mm Rem Mag, non magnum calibers, etc.). The "M" ejector will protuberate in the magazine box of a magnum length Win 70 (7 mm STW, .300 Wby, .375 H&H, .416 Rem) intended to use a full length magazine box without rear spacer and the "H" ejector. An "M" ejector in a .416 Rem Win 70 would cause exactly the issue described by postoak.

Conversely, a "H" ejector will be flush with the rear magazine box of a magnum Win 70 CRF and will not interfere with the loading of the rounds.

Are we onto something here?

 

[fourfive8]

Great discussion to have on these type rifles. I have noticed that each may have a slightly different orientation between where the bolt head stops and the solid part of the receiver that houses the magazine box. Some bolt stops are adjusted (by a pre-determined length in most factory guns or trimmed to length in custom guns) to where the bolt head is flush with that rear solid ramp into the mag box and some are adjusted to where the bolt stops some distance to the rear. The ones with a flush fit have no transition lip to "catch" the case head during the loading process. The ones with the bolt head stopping some to the rear, form a lip to "catch" a case head during loading.

There is a compromise here. If the bolt stop is adjusted for a flush fit it will possibly be the smoothest to load but also runs a slightly greater risk of "short stroking" and failure to pick up a round for loading into the chamber. If the bolt stop is adjusted for furthest possible travel to the rear, it may form that transition lip which may cause a "catch" during loading BUT that bolt stop position would be the least likely for a short stroke.

Interesting also, unless these finer points are RELLY studied in detail, they can go unnoticed even after years of experience. I've shot and used these type actions since the late 60s. But hadn't really studied the details until trying to learn about them and fix the misbehaving ones beginning about 1990.

 

[fourfive8]

Two different Win 70 CRF ejectors...

The reason I was asking "Is this a used rifle?" is that there are two different types of Win 70 ejectors, the "M" and the "H" models, and as I speculated above, the wrong ejector may be mounted in this rifle. There is, I guess, a possibility that the rifle could come with the wrong ejector from the factory... Heck! that .300 Wby limited run Win 70 Classic Stainless pictured above came from the factory with a safety that could not engage, however hard I tried. I had to take it apart and adjust the camming surface to make it work. So, I guess, everything is possible. So much for the legend of the Win 70 ready for Africa out of the box, so often perpetuated by CZ 550 critics

The "M" ejector is visibly longer. It is intended to be used in non-full length magnum Win 70 CRF that use sheet metal magazine boxes with a rear spacer to accommodate standard length cartridges (.338 Win, .300 Win, 7 mm Rem Mag, non magnum calibers, etc.). The "M" ejector will protuberate in the magazine box of a magnum length Win 70 (7 mm STW, .300 Wby, .375 H&H, .416 Rem) intended to use a full length magazine box without rear spacer and the "H" ejector. An "M" ejector in a .416 Rem Win 70 would cause exactly the issue described by postoak.

View attachment 331760

Conversely, a "H" ejector will be flush with the rear magazine box of a magnum Win 70 CRF and will not interfere with the loading of the rounds.

Are we onto something here?

Yes, some possibility of a mismatch. It is all further complicated by the critical relationship between the bolt stop and the ejector and the sheer number of possible different cartridge that have been brought out the last 20 years or so.

Also, interesting about the different lengths and designs of Win 70 ejectors. I was just looking at Rule's Winchester book and noticed a detailed description for 4 different ejectors for 4 different cartridge groups for a period of time during the era of the pre-64. I don't know all the ejector iterations for both the post-64 70s and the FN 70s but have noticed quite a different number of them. Some of the lengths appear to be the same but with much different designs I think to accommodate such odd shapes as the short mags and super short mags... etc.

 

[postoak]

One day - your photos are good and show everything any photos I post could. First, I can see your bolt stops some distance behind "that piece of metal" that I am going to call the lower bolt rest, just as mine does. Second, you can see the lower rail curving in toward the center line of the rifle.

My diagnosis, at this point, is that the problem is in the relative position backward of the lower bolt rest and the curving in of the feed rail. Moving the bolt forward slightly works because you are bringing the bolt face forward to act as a substitute stop, which normally the lower bolt rest functions as. IOW, if you move the bolt forward, you cover the lower bolt rest AND the curvature inward of the rail with the bolt face so that you make them in sync by replacing them with one object (the bolt face). Obviously, that is no solution.

I, now, don't think the ejector is a factor at all here.

 

[Dr Ray]

My Winchester is a bit “shaggy” even with factory rounds. I’ve not struck that previously but I assume it’s because it’s a brand new rifle.
I seated the Woodleigh Bullets so the overall length of the cartridge was 3.6 inches in my 416 Remington. That’s the length of a factory round. I have seen the overall length slightly smaller in some reloading manuals.
So maybe any issues you have could be solved by decreasing the overall length just a very small amount.

 

[postoak]

Thanks Dr. Ray. No, if you read all my posts, any length 3.610" or less (and maybe more, I haven't tried them) all feed and all have this same issue of hitting the lower guide rail where it curves inward.

 

[Desert Dog]

My Portugal M70SE in 416rem feeds fantastic. I load my A-frames to 3.580 and my TSX's to 3.590. Both feed great.

 

[fourfive8]

I've had at least 6 or 7 of these post-64 Winchester crfs in this category and all would feed, cycle, extract and eject perfectly. The only exception was a near new, used post 64 Win 70 375 I just got. Somehow??? it had the wrong ejector. Easy fix- about 15 minutes to install and 30 minutes to scrounge in one of my junk boxes to find a correct ejector.

It is extremely unusual to even hear of such issues with them. I am puzzled and would also like to know the root cause of this "hitch" in the loading. These rifles are very similar to all the crf Mausers and most all the other Win/Mauser clones out there. They all, including the Mausers, are a little loosey-goosy in the mechanics of handling of cartridges, but that is by design not error. The operation of the design genius and measurements/angles of all the parts that go into and out of battery are the critical elements- not necessarily the tightness of fit. The internal workings of a "Swiss watch" wouldn't function for long in the environment of hunting or shooting. Kind of the same idea as to why the AK has such a reputation for reliable function.

But this little hitch in the loading of a normal Win 70 crf is baffling! My only idea remaining is the relationship between the bolt stop and the ejector is a little out of "sync" for lack of a better term. Or the ejector itself is not as it should be. Very frustrating to not have this rifle in hand to have a look-see !! Do hope it gets sorted out.

 

[postoak]

Maybe I'm just being too picky. fourfive8, if you drop the 2nd round in and push all the way back and then push down near the rear of the cartridge, your cartridge will go straight down into the magazine?

 

[One Day...]

Maybe I'm just being too picky ... if you drop the 2nd round in and push all the way back and then push down near the rear of the cartridge, your cartridge will go straight down into the magazine?

Absolutely! Just like loading an AR mag...

This rifle should load as follows:

Drop blindly without specific concern or attention a cartridge, whether it be the first or the fourth, in the raceway and push it down and rearward so that the bullet clears the feeding ramp and the cartridge clicks in place under the feeding rail, whether it be the right or the left. Repeat until the magazine is full. End of story.​

No attention should be required or paid whether the rifle is horizontal, vertical, tilted, immobile, on the run, etc.; whether the bolt stops here or there as long as it is fully back and slammed against the bolt stop; whether the cartridge is the first in the mag of just a top off; whether the cartridge goes right or left of the stack; whether the cartridge is a soft or a solid; etc. etc.

Truly, the reload should work 100% mechanically and 100% of the time while keeping your eyes on the game, while more than likely on the move.

Anything short of the above denotes a problem that is unacceptable in a DG rifle and that must be solved, regardless of how it can be mitigated by delicate and arcane manipulation.

Not being able to see the rifle, or even a picture of the incriminated section, makes me unable to provide further advice, which I regret, but the above is the end goal postoak. Until you get there, this rifle is not truly 'Africa ready' and without becoming overly dramatic it could cost you a trophy or, in a most uncommon and worse case scenario, even your life. Truth be told, just the frustration of it would be enough to ruin my Safari, so I would not accept it or blame myself for being too picky. You are not. This needs to get fixed

 

[fourfive8]

postoak,
Hard to describe the "feel". All my crf rifles feel a little different as the rounds go into the magazine simultaneous to being captured under the rail- either right or left side. That includes the Win 70s, a Win 54, two Springfield 03-A3s, one Springfield 03 and a Mauser 95, Mauser 96 and an FN... I believe they call it the Model 50 or something. The differences are subtle and none are what I would call a problem or unusual. I can usually feel (or hear) the 2nd cartridge ride over or "clip" the ejector. I think I probably subconsciously feel the orientation of the cartridge as it enters the magazine, so any resistance is corrected by very subtle manipulation of the cartridge to continue the process until it is secure under the rail. I can purposefully make a cartridge hang up a little when loading but I have to really force it into an odd orientation.

Something different and won't hurt to try- Instead of feeding with the thumb you might try reaching all the way under the action and load with the fingers of the off hand- a tactical shotgun loading technique that can sometimes work with a rifle. You'll have to transfer the cartridge to the off hand as it reaches under the action and as the fingers "curl" the cartridge into the loading port and down into the magazine.