Hunting SA or "Wild" Africa - Which is Better

[steve white]

Fair enough. I'll wind my neck in. The rain here in Joburg has a funny effect on the mind... Or maybe it's loadshedding I'm not sure.

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And who, pray tell is responsible for the incidence of load shedding? Westerners? Former white African leadership? (TBH, we have our own idiots here who still blame everything on Trump, or even Bush before him, but when it all shakes out, it is only fair and necessarily just to assign blame where it belongs.) If you have been offended by intimations that Africa is incapable of running itself, I can say that the right to run yourself and running yourself well are two different concepts--and it is not racist to say the King has no clothes! (The ANC certainly being largely naked in that scenario). Please inform us where Africa is being well run, we could use the breath of fresh air. And it would help counterbalance all the nonsense we have observed across the spectrum of countries post colonialism. List the places where corruption, nepotism, and tribalism are not rife, PLEASE. We're all for a successful Africa, just beyond kissing up to let others pretend they are doing things competently, all the while sticking their hands out constantly for outside aid, after thoroughly plundering their own populations. We don't have to, and cannot be forced to pretend things are OK or enter another person's lunacy to make them feel better.

Having concern for wildlife when population increases has gone hand in hand with concern over deforestation for charcoal, or sale of bushmeat that has denuded the game in some places to the detriment of leopard populations and these are topics we choose to make our business in the context of the objectives of this forum. We are justifiably concerned BECAUSE of what our eyes have seen, and we trust our lying eyes at the end of the day. The whole world has a heritage in the wildlife that the Creator bequeathed us all, and a moral obligation to protect it even from local mismanagement. Thus, you do not have a right to exterminate it all at will without consequence. AND, if you do THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES EVEN IN AIDE SENT THEREAFTER would be my prediction. Africa CAN and should be required to do better for both its people and its wildlife. End of rant.

 

[PhotoCollector73]

There are things that are different about this site compared to some others. One is that we thankfully have a ignore button.

I wasn't responding to Tanks, I was responding to @BSO Dave. I thought my not tagging Tanks was a show of non-hostility but I digress.

One may disagree with @Tanks observations about hunting Africa, but his are indeed informed opinions.

I mean, are they? I'm not at all trying to nullify Tank's experience but his opinions are obviously based on his own personal preferences and he's more than welcome to do so.

A "thirst for knowledge" somehow seems at odds with disparaging those who actually possess it.

No, you're confusing me having a differing opinion with stomping out what everyone else has to say. Having a discussion means than people will invariably have disagreements.

He has neither been rude nor disagreeable.

ONLY in this instance, as I actually called him out.

He has simply offered his opinions based upon his experience. Perhaps we would all benefit were you to participate in the same vein.

I really am trying to, but I think people (including myself) are too easily being swayed by their emotions, despite the cordialness.

And who, pray tell is responsible for the incidence of load shedding? Westerners? Former white African leadership? (TBH, we have our own idiots here who still blame everything on Trump, or even Bush before him, but when it all shakes out, it is only fair and necessarily just to assign blame where it belongs.) If you have been offended by intimations that Africa is incapable of running itself, I can say that the right to run yourself and running yourself well are two different concepts--and it is not racist to say the King has no clothes! (The ANC certainly being largely naked in that scenario). Please inform us where Africa is being well run, we could use the breath of fresh air. And it would help counterbalance all the nonsense we have observed across the spectrum of countries post colonialism. List the places where corruption, nepotism, and tribalism are not rife, PLEASE. We're all for a successful Africa, just beyond kissing up to let others pretend they are doing things competently, all the while sticking their hands out constantly for outside aid. We don't have to, and cannot be forced to pretend things are OK or enter another person's lunacy to make them feel better.

Having concern for wildlife when population increases has gone hand in hand with deforestation for charcoal, or sale of bushmeat that has denuded the game in some places to the detriment of leopard populations and is a topic we choose to make our business in the context of the objectives of this forum. We are justifiably concerned BECAUSE of what our eyes have seen, and we trust our lying eyes at the end of the day. The whole world has a heritage in the wildlife that the Creator bequeathed us all, and a moral obligation to protect it even from local mismanagement. Thus, you do not have a right to exterminate it all at will without consequence. AND, if you do THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES EVEN IN AIDE SENT THEREAFTER would be my prediction. Africa CAN and should be required to do better for both its people and its wildlife. End of rant.

K... lol. Where did that come from? Your entire argument falls apart if you actually take into account that I wasn't ever accusing anyone of racism if you actually bothered reading my earlier replies. But I guess some of us just NEED a good fight, eh? And just as an FYI, my grandfather on my father's side served in the SADF during the Border War, and my great-grandfather on my mother's side was General Peter Walls (yes, that one.) That kind of family history is bound to shape the way one percieves the world. So to think that I'm woke and think white people are to blame for Africa's failures is just absurd.

 

[BSO Dave]

Your premise seems to be focused on cost. Yes, a suit from Marks & Spenser or Walmart is going to cost a lot less than the more upscale stores let alone bespoke tailors. But, then you will have to settle for cheaper materials and a not perfect fit.

If all one can afford is RSA, then go for it. When Joe Average is bragging about his lion hunt at home his audience is not going to know that the lion was raised in a pen and let out for "hunting" a few days earlier.

Cost is only one of the factors that should be considered. Also, if one is flexible with their time there are many reduced cost end-of-the-season or cancellation hunts that pop-up in "wild Africa".

And I have nothing against RSA hunting as I also have nothing against Walmart. They fill the needs of a large range of clientele. I just would not call it the best.

You just can't help yourself can you? LOL..!

Comparing an RSA plainsgame hunt to a cheap suit is certainly going to endear you to the many sponsors of this site who pay thousands of dollars to market their "cheap suit" African experiences here..

And once again, you never miss an opportunity to bring CBL hunting into a conversation where it did not exist, or have any relevance.. Please explain to all of us how exactly does CBL hunting fit into this discussion..? On second thought please don't.. Nobody cares..

Congratulations! You have managed to not only insult the vast majority of outfitters here on this site, but also the vast majority of their past clients and prospective clients by comparing them to Walmart shoppers. It seems that you and HRC have the same gift for knowing your audience.. LOL.. Your condescension is truly laughable! Speaking on behalf of the deplorables here on this site, thank you for continuing to provide us with such entertainment..

One may disagree with @Tanks observations about hunting Africa, but his are indeed informed opinions.

Defending this guy is the hill you want to die on? You can have informed opinions and present them in such a way that is not obviously condescending, pompous, and arrogant. Please re-read his quote above that is just one of the many I have referenced making my point. You can go back to dozens of threads and scores of posts where he does this regularly..

That's the problem with many "informed" individuals is that they believed they are so informed, theirs is the only opinion that applies.. In my view, that pomposity nullifies most, if not all of the credibility that would have otherwise have been appreciated here by many..

 

[Flewis]

You just can't help yourself can you? LOL..!

Comparing an RSA plainsgame hunt to a cheap suit is certainly going to endear you to the many sponsors of this site who pay thousands of dollars to market their "cheap suit" African experiences here..

And once again, you never miss an opportunity to bring CBL hunting into a conversation where it did not exist, or have any relevance.. Please explain to all of us how exactly does CBL hunting fit into this discussion..? On second thought please don't.. Nobody cares..

Congratulations! You have managed to not only insult the vast majority of outfitters here on this site, but also the vast majority of their past clients and prospective clients by comparing them to Walmart shoppers. It seems that you and HRC have the same gift for knowing your audience.. LOL.. Your condescension is truly laughable! Speaking on behalf of the deplorables here on this site, thank you for continuing to provide us with such entertainment..



Defending this guy is the hill you want to die on? You can have informed opinions and present them in such a way that is not obviously condescending, pompous, and arrogant. Please re-read his quote above that is just one of the many I have referenced making my point. You can go back to dozens of threads and scores of posts where he does this regularly..

That's the problem with many "informed" individuals is that they believed they are so informed, theirs is the only opinion that applies.. In my view, that pomposity nullifies most, if not all of the credibility that would have otherwise have been appreciated here by many..

I don’t think anyone could say it better. But I fear you are wasting your time. SAD.

 

[John Wasmuth]

BSO Dave,
Due to the fact that people remain anonymous behind phony nick names they give themselves and never have to be held accountable for anything they write on the internet , unlike real life were there’d find themselves picking ivory up off the floor, it’s senseless to feed their BS egos. And when you do interact with them in a manner they aren’t accustomed to their “Squad” shows up, much like AOC and her minions…….. apparently you have to build up tenure before you are allowed to cast an opinion.

 

[Tom Leoni]

Please inform us where Africa is being well run, we could use the breath of fresh air.

I hear Wakanda is being run really smoothly. The good folks in Birnin Zana are doing a fantastic job--so much so that in 2019 that model of a nation was on the USDA's list of free-trade partners (for real).

 

[DWB]

Dear Mr Tanks,

I just want to make sure how much you have actually hunted South Africa, and yes I mean boots on ground.

I guess this will give us a good indication of how much attention we should pay to your opinion of SA.

Proudly South African.

And yes, I also choose my hunting experiences carefully.

 

[Tanks]

You just can't help yourself can you? LOL..!

Comparing an RSA plainsgame hunt to a cheap suit is certainly going to endear you to the many sponsors of this site who pay thousands of dollars to market their "cheap suit" African experiences here..

...

When post after post you extoll the virtues of hunting at RSA based on cost what other analogy should one use?

And the Walmart model works, that's why the original owners are multi-billionaires. Giving the public what they want. So, I doubt one would feel insulted with the analogy.

 

[PhotoCollector73]

And once again, you never miss an opportunity to bring CBL hunting into a conversation where it did not exist, or have any relevance.. Please explain to all of us how exactly does CBL hunting fit into this discussion..?

It doesn't, but that's @Tanks for you. Just as I was giving him the benefit of the doubt with my last comment on this thread, he just could not resist the urge to come back with the last word. Tanks, you truly are an incredible individual. Congratulations. How do you do it?

And whenever someone tries explaining their position on CBL, and how there are in fact wild lions in South Africa as an alternative, he just blocks his ears and continues with the same talking point, shouting his opinion into the void.

 

[Tanks]

@BSO Dave Also, interesting that just like the poster above you stoop to making ad hominem attacks in order to make your point. What's next, playing the "hitler card"?

FYI, I shop at Walmart as well, get cat litter, TP and paper towels delivered each month as they do have the best price. So, not knocking Walmart shoppers.

 

[PhotoCollector73]

@BSO Dave Also, interesting that just like the poster above you stoop to making ad hominem attacks in order to make your point.

Ad hominem means that a person in question wouldn't have any counter-argument to the other's, and would only revert to insults. My comments are most definitely NOT ad hominem.

What's next, playing the "hitler card"?

...What?

FYI, I shop at Walmart as well, get cat litter, TP and paper towels delivered each month as they do have the best price. So, not knocking Walmart shoppers.

Thank you. Us peasants are having a rough time with these poor harvests .

 

[Flewis]

Ad hominem means that a person in question wouldn't have any counter-argument to the other's, and would only revert to insults. My comments are most definitely NOT ad hominem.

...What?

Thank you. Us peasants are having a rough time with these poor harvests .

Are you sure this is real or someone just messing around. It seems faked or at least the poster is addled.

 

[revturbo9967]

Thank you. Us peasants are having a rough time with these poor harvests .

And where do you harvest your toilet paper?

 

[PhotoCollector73]

And where do you harvest your toilet paper?

Personally, I like to make mine completely from scratch. The diamond mines of Kimberley are at least a ten-hour drive from where I live, but the journey is well worth it. Once I enter the mines (illegally, because rebels live on the edge ), I scrape out centuries-old minerals and collected them as samples for my well-earned reward: The sacred free-ranging toilet paper. The drive back home is arduous, but tears of joy fall on my cheeks as I realize I have harvested toilet paper the RIGHT WAY.

 

[BSO Dave]

When post after post you extoll the virtues of hunting at RSA based on cost what other analogy should one use?

Each and every comment/post I have made in this or any other discussion has been in direct reply to some ridiculous, asinine, or just plain false characterization that you or someone else has made.. Every time I have done so you backstroke faster than Michael Phelps claiming that was not your intent, and then you usually try to defend your mischaracterizations with half-assed rationalizations.

There is an easy end to this.. Stop making the false or unfair characterizations and I will magically stop calling you out on it.. Or, use your ignore button.

As far as exploring the virtues of hunting an African destination other than "wild Africa", there are a great many appealing considerations beyond the overall cost.. These types of safaris are appealing to a great many of us Walmart shoppers such as those of us who have a limited amount of time to travel, those who have physical or health challenges, those who want the opportunity to enjoy a bigger variety of non-hunting & cultural excursions, those of us who wish to include our family members, and those whom might have safety considerations for themselves or family members who do not feel comfortable traveling to the more remote places in Africa.. I could name a dozen more "virtues", but as someone already mentioned, I'm wasting my time making my points to you.

@BSO Dave Also, interesting that just like the poster above you stoop to making ad hominem attacks in order to make your point. What's next, playing the "hitler card"?

This is laugh-out-loud ridiculous! Please cite specific examples of where I have personally attacked you? I don't know you personally, nor do I care to.. I don't attack individuals, I point out the nonsense they post.. What I have done is call you out (repeatedly) for the specific words and tone that you have used when making your assertions..

I do remember once referring to someone else as an ass-clown which was regrettable, and I apologize to the Forum.. What I should have said was that they posted ass-clownish comments.

 

[Flewis]

Dave , who are you talking to, I don’t see a post, and won’t!

 

[VertigoBE]

Is it me, or is everyone for some reason more edgy than usual.
In which case, I suggest a good single malt to those claiming virtuousness....

 

[WAB]

I know I’ve said this previously, but I am at a loss as to why one has to be good and the other bad! I have hunted fairly extensively in Africa. My preference is for the wild places, but I have enjoyed my time in RSA as well. For the record, there are a number of statements being made that IMO are just not true:
1) RSA has only high fence ranch hunts - FALSE
2) RSA is cheaper than other options - much too broad a statement, I have hunted Botswana and Namibia for very competitive costs relative to RSA
3) the only lion hunting in RSA is CBL - False
There have also been inferences that RSA operators are not as good as those in other countries. Again, much too broad a generalization. There are good operators and bad operators in every country we hunt. Thankfully the good far outweigh the bad, but do your homework!

If y’all want to keep fighting just for the fun of it, have at it. I’ve said my peace.

 

[Scott CWO]

I don’t mind hearing all opinions and differences of opinions as long as they are presented without rudeness and name-calling. When you get rude, emotional or obnoxious is when you and unfortunately your points/arguments, lose credibility.

As for cost, there often seems to be a double standard applied. The opinions of what’s the best hunting by folks that can afford to hunt open areas can get cast aside because many claim those areas are unaffordable for many others, and therefore, not the best. Cost should not disqualify expensive areas, just as cost should not disqualify cheaper areas. To me, it’s the experience that I am after. If a great experience hunting, not shooting, can be had at a cheaper price, I’m all for it. For me personally, it would have to be a large property where the animals breed freely, are not supplementally fed, are not confined to small pastures and are not re-stocked annually. But that’s just me.

 

[Tanks]

...

As for cost, there often seems to be a double standard applied. The opinions of what’s the best hunting by folks that can afford to hunt open areas can get cast aside because many claim those areas are unaffordable for many others, and therefore, not the best. Cost should not disqualify expensive areas, just as cost should not disqualify cheaper areas. To me, it’s the experience that I am after....

One thing I have mentioned before is that if one is after DG (for example elephant) then trophy fees become pretty close to RSA and even cheaper. Here is what I paid last year at Zimbabwe and RSA trophy prices from the web site of one of the advertisers here. Also, I was at Nyakasanga which is more expensive.

Zimbabwe Pricing:
Buffalo - $6,500 ($5,500 at Dande)
Baboon - $90 ($60 at Dande)
Grysbuk $350 ($450 at Dande)
Hyena $750 ($550 at Dande)
Kudu $1,750 ($1200 at Dande)
Warthog $600 ($450 at Dande)
Zebra $1,500 ($1,250 at Dande)

Total Trophy fees in Zimbabwe: $11,540 deduct 2 animals not listed for RSA for comparison purposes: $10,440

RSA Trophy fees:
Buffalo from $9,500
Baboon $150
Grysbuk N/A
Hyena N/A
Kudu $2,800
Warthog $300
Zebra $1000

Trophy fees RSA: $13,750

Yes, if one adds the daily rates for Zimbabwe then Zim is more expensive however one is already at Zim for DG and paying those daily rates regardless. So, the PG is just an optional add on to the main course. I don't know that many guys that go to Zim just for PG except maybe for roan.

So, in my case hunting the PG listed above and the buffalo was not only better than RSA experience (totally wild area), but less expensive than doing the same hunt as a separate PG trip to RSA.