Hunting Elephant with the .505 Gibbs

[CAustin]

Caustin, for sure the .458 WM is my own limit...have a look at a hunter who shot with Doc Kevin Robertson`s 505 Gibbs....

Thump!

 

[Standard Velocity]

Question for those who’ve hunted elephant; is passing on a charging ten yard shot in hopes of a charging six yard shot a normal tactic? I’ve hunted a pretty diverse range of North American game and have never felt ten yards was anything other than very close (with the exception of snakes— which were both far too close and not far enough away).

Am I slow? It’s okay I can take it if it’s true.

 

[Major Khan]

Question for those who’ve hunted elephant; is passing on a charging ten yard shot in hopes of a charging six yard shot a normal tactic? I’ve hunted a pretty diverse range of North American game and have never felt ten yards was anything other than very close (with the exception of snakes— which were both far too close and not far enough away).

Am I slow? It’s okay I can take it if it’s true.

I have unfortunately never had the privilege of hunting an elephant , because they were a protected species in India... even prior to 1972 . However , I have accompanied many Forest Department Officials when they had to shoot rogue Indian elephants . Letting an Indian elephant get closer to you to attempt a frontal brain shot is a feasible practice . Back in those days ... none of my colleagues ever shot a rogue elephant at a distance greater than 40 paces... with 20 paces being the average range for shooting most Indian rogue elephants . The officers would use department issued .303 British calibre Lee Enfield bolt rifles and old stock 215 grain ICI Kynoch solid metal covered cartridges for this purpose .
Dr. Lahiri Chowdhury , author of
" The Great Indian Elephant Book " killed several rogue elephants during his years in Assam .... by utilizing this strategy .

He used a Manton & Co. brand .470 Nitro Express double barreled side by side rifle to do so.

 

[Hank2211]

I don't want to take us off topic . . .the OP was about both the rifle and hunting elephant. Many have chimed on on the rifle - one I am most happy to watch others shoot. I have used .375 on elephant and felt a bit undergunned. .404 or .416 would be just about right.

As for the elephant part of the story . . . I have often thought of hunting tuskless because the cost is much lower than a trophy elephant and the experience is much the same (if not more thrilling because of the nature of these females). Having said that, I have over the years developed doubts about such hunts (I was going to say the ethics of such hunts but I will keep that loaded word out of the discussion). Killing females from a "family" group - which is where they will be found barring some unusual circumstance such as the dying cow in the story) undoubtedly has an impact on the remaining elephant, both females and their young. And I have little doubt that the impact is wholly negative, and will show up in future interactions between members of the herd or the offspring, if and when they go off on their own.

Given the social structure of elephant, I wonder if hunters are best to limit their hunting to bachelor groups (which tend to be small) where no young are present. Shouldn't we try to limit the impact of our hunting on those animals which are not hunted? I realize taken to an extreme this could mean not shooting a big impala ram from a herd which included females and young, which would be impossible. But in these other cases, at least in my experience, the herd eventually calms down and no long term harm seems to be done. Perhaps this is a result of these animals being used to other animals in the herd being eaten . . . an experience elephants rarely have?

So as thrilling as this hunt was, I do wonder about the long term impacts of taking the matriarch and two other females out of a herd? Aren't dangerous and ill-behaved elephants are usually the result of interactions such as these, rather than of nature on its own?

I'd be curious to hear from some of the PH's who regularly hunt elephant and tuskless in particular - am I right or wrong?

 

[Standard Velocity]

I don't want to take us off topic . . .the OP was about both the rifle and hunting elephant. Many have chimed on on the rifle - one I am most happy to watch others shoot. I have used .375 on elephant and felt a bit undergunned. .404 or .416 would be just about right.

As for the elephant part of the story . . . I have often thought of hunting tuskless because the cost is much lower than a trophy elephant and the experience is much the same (if not more thrilling because of the nature of these females). Having said that, I have over the years developed doubts about such hunts (I was going to say the ethics of such hunts but I will keep that loaded word out of the discussion). Killing females from a "family" group - which is where they will be found barring some unusual circumstance such as the dying cow in the story) undoubtedly has an impact on the remaining elephant, both females and their young. And I have little doubt that the impact is wholly negative, and will show up in future interactions between members of the herd or the offspring, if and when they go off on their own.

Given the social structure of elephant, I wonder if hunters are best to limit their hunting to bachelor groups (which tend to be small) where no young are present. Shouldn't we try to limit the impact of our hunting on those animals which are not hunted? I realize taken to an extreme this could mean not shooting a big impala ram from a herd which included females and young, which would be impossible. But in these other cases, at least in my experience, the herd eventually calms down and no long term harm seems to be done. Perhaps this is a result of these animals being used to other animals in the herd being eaten . . . an experience elephants rarely have?

So as thrilling as this hunt was, I do wonder about the long term impacts of taking the matriarch and two other females out of a herd? Aren't dangerous and ill-behaved elephants are usually the result of interactions such as these, rather than of nature on its own?

I'd be curious to hear from some of the PH's who regularly hunt elephant and tuskless in particular - am I right or wrong?

What I’ve read about elephant behavior is in line with your observations. The only time I’ve spent with elephants was in a zoo or a circus so my opinions aren’t worth much, but my uneducated opinion is that you are correct. Also curious about those who’ve been there and done that.

 

[IdaRam]

I don't want to take us off topic . . .the OP was about both the rifle and hunting elephant. Many have chimed on on the rifle - one I am most happy to watch others shoot. I have used .375 on elephant and felt a bit undergunned. .404 or .416 would be just about right.

As for the elephant part of the story . . . I have often thought of hunting tuskless because the cost is much lower than a trophy elephant and the experience is much the same (if not more thrilling because of the nature of these females). Having said that, I have over the years developed doubts about such hunts (I was going to say the ethics of such hunts but I will keep that loaded word out of the discussion). Killing females from a "family" group - which is where they will be found barring some unusual circumstance such as the dying cow in the story) undoubtedly has an impact on the remaining elephant, both females and their young. And I have little doubt that the impact is wholly negative, and will show up in future interactions between members of the herd or the offspring, if and when they go off on their own.

Given the social structure of elephant, I wonder if hunters are best to limit their hunting to bachelor groups (which tend to be small) where no young are present. Shouldn't we try to limit the impact of our hunting on those animals which are not hunted? I realize taken to an extreme this could mean not shooting a big impala ram from a herd which included females and young, which would be impossible. But in these other cases, at least in my experience, the herd eventually calms down and no long term harm seems to be done. Perhaps this is a result of these animals being used to other animals in the herd being eaten . . . an experience elephants rarely have?

So as thrilling as this hunt was, I do wonder about the long term impacts of taking the matriarch and two other females out of a herd? Aren't dangerous and ill-behaved elephants are usually the result of interactions such as these, rather than of nature on its own?

I'd be curious to hear from some of the PH's who regularly hunt elephant and tuskless in particular - am I right or wrong?

Hank, I have wondered some of the same things and asked a few of those questions too. Hopefully some of our knowledgeable and experienced PH’s will chime in on this topic.
One of the things that was explained to me on my one and only tuskless hunt (Zimbabwe) is that in places where tuskless quota is allocated, the management strategy calls for maintaining the naturally occurring ratio of tuskless population which is generally about 3%. Without some off-take the tuskless population would gradually increase. Over the course of my hunt I believe I saw around a dozen tuskless cows. 4 or 5 of these cows also had tuskless calves, so this seems plausible in my very limited experience.
Some elephant populations have no tuskless genes present. As elephant populations in Zimbabwe and Botswana for example have increased, in many areas dramatically, there has been a concern that the intermingling of elephant populations due to dispersal and over crowding will cause populations that historically have not contained animals with tuskless genes to interbreed with tuskless populations, thereby introducing a non-native genetic trait. I have no idea if this is in fact true or correct, but also seems plausible.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Killing females from a "family" group - which is where they will be found barring some unusual circumstance such as the dying cow in the story) undoubtedly has an impact on the remaining elephant, both females and their young. And I have little doubt that the impact is wholly negative, and will show up in future interactions between members of the herd or the offspring, if and when they go off on their own.
Great question....yes, you are correct ...Elephant herds has a very , very close knit social structure between groups , when most of Africa was still devoid of people and as far back as in the Federick Selous era and later in 1980 Game rangers like Richard Harland mentioned a gathering of masses of elephants every few years..he noticed that at such a great gathering the groups from all over Rhodesia, Botswana, South Africa got together and assembled in a region where the rivers meet to flow to the Indian ocean..( I will read up on this again to give more details..Richard mentioned this information was gathered from local people ( old hunters ) in the region...during this gathering a lot of intermingling would take place , most of the individual groups would break up, mix into other groups, after the mass assembling about fifteen years ( stand to be corrected) these new groups lead by the female matriarg will return to their regions...

In the 1975 era inwards to 1994 the Kruger National Parks were employing a strategy to keep the growth of the elephant population and other large group animals like hippos and buffalo who could have a devastating influence on the environment of the Park and to the detriment of other species and their habitat...they use to cull a few individual elephants in a group in different regions...the infants/ small, younger elephants were capture and re-located in other parks and even private game reserves ....
This lead to numerous challenges, in later years these infants/young elephants causes dramatic problems like killing Rhinos, hippos, posed a danger to tourists....they sort this problem out by re-locating bull elephants to these regions..through all this ,research was an ongoing process into these challenges ...
Through results of their research they came to the conclusion that due to the close knit social fiber of the elephant population across Africa they had to , when implementing culling operations in the National parks had to target a whole family /group of animals and kill all of them as quickly as possible, including the infants/small elephants .....this causes less stress to the elephant populations than the previous single-out individuals culling strategy....
It is the same with tusk-less elephant cows I presume??...Although I think (personal opinion) hunting tusk-less elephant cows may be based on the following strategies:
Tusk-less cows do not carry tusks...might it be that hunting these cows is not as controversial since no tusks(ivory ) will find their way into the black market..
This type of hunt /culling make sense to manage elephant populations in a region of a Game Park /Game farms?
It already have been documented that single out individuals to kill from a group of elephants will lead to challenges in the future..

Something interesting ; I am fortunate to share a campfire with Clive Cheney recently and hopefully in the near future again...Clive told us about the circumstances they had to deal with when doing these mass culling operations in the Kruger National park ....it was huge operations performed by experts in the field of Nature Conservation.... research was done all the while during these operations to look at the effects in regards to population management in a National park....
Due to the extreme challenges of mass culling they had to employ various techniques to perform these culling procedures...one was by using a helicopter to kill these elephant groups from the air..they uses the .458 WM caliber rifles, still today the .458 WM seems to be a game ranger `s choice in the Kruger National Park.....
Due to the extreme convined space in the helicopter with two shooters shooting simultaneously things would go bad very fast,,,..the recoil of these calibers in a ever moving small space , the shooters themselves were pommel/strike by the butts of their rifles in their faces ..when landing again they were smeared with their own blood all over their faces , due to the rough ride culling flight procedures...imagine shooting a 458 WM while hanging around in a fast flying helicopter ....

 

[grand veneur]

I have also been told several times that it is a problem to selectively shoot elephants for a regulation of the population , like we do that with other species.

Nevertheless , is there no alternative to culling ?

As I wrote in another posting , with the elephant trophy hunt and the shooting of old bulls we won't be able to manage the overpopulation of elephants in some countries.

 

[mark-hunter]

Another question @Major Khan

In India, elephant hunting is banned much before total hunting ban.
The question is this.
Does India (or Bangladesh) face problem of overpopulation of wild elephants? How the elephants are managed there?

 

[Major Khan]

Another question @Major Khan

In India, elephant hunting is banned much before total hunting ban.
The question is this.
Does India (or Bangladesh) face problem of overpopulation of wild elephants? How the elephants are managed there?

Oh yes , Mark Hunter . India has massive problems of elephant over population ( as well as over population of most wild life ) . Elephants are regularly known to crush locals to death and cause massive amounts of crop and property damage .

India is a socialist country ( run by vegan swines and hard core Hindu fanatics ) that values wild life over human life ( I am not exaggerating ... when I tell you that there is not an animal in existence , which these people do NOT worship ) . When villagers get crushed to death ... the authorities tell them to either move to areas where there are no elephants , or to " live with it " and accept the risk of getting crushed by elephants .
You will see that the largest number of human - wild life conflicts occurs in India for this reason . Because there is no hunting to keep the wild life populations in check . Neelgai and Wild Boars regularly damage the crops of farmers .As do cheetal , kakar , sambhur and hog deer . As do 4 horned buck , black buck and Chinkara .

This is also why so many royal Bengal tigers and panthers turn man eater in India . Their population far exceeds the quantity of natural prey available to them . Then , there are parts of India where you will absolutely find no wild life at all ... because poachers have become rancid in those areas ( Due to an absence of legal , regulated hunting ) . The media then uses these examples of poaching ... to ensure that hunting never becomes legal again .

In Bangladesh , Forest Department Officials occasionally need to shoot rogue elephants , especially in the areas around the Maulvi Bazaar forests or the Chittagong Hill Tracts . At times , they enlist the help of an experienced local shikaree to do this .

 

[mark-hunter]

@Major Khan,

Just to get rough idea:

What is estimated number of wild elephant population in India, and also in Bangladesh?

And also, what is the numbers of domesticated elephants in both countries?

 

[Major Khan]

@Major Khan,

Just to get rough idea:

What is estimated number of wild elephant population in India, and also in Bangladesh?

And also, what is the numbers of domesticated elephants in both countries?

We have , give or take ... about a thousand elephants in Bangladesh , Mark Hunter . Around 300 of these elephants are domesticated ... while the other 700 are wild ( rough approximate) .

In India , there are an estimated 32,000 wild elephants dispersed across the 30 states of India ( rough approximate ) .

 

[Foxi]

@ Major Khan +@ Kwashik Rahman

is the name of the old hunter from Bangladesh Pachdabi Gazi familiar to you, a tiger hunter from the Sunderbans?

 

[mark-hunter]

@Foxi

I think, yes. See below link.

https://www.africahunting.com/threa...t-tiger-hunter-pachabdi-gazi-1924-1997.56123/

 

[Major Khan]

@ Major Khan +@ Kwashik Rahman

is the name of the old hunter from Bangladesh Pachdabi Gazi familiar to you, a tiger hunter from the Sunderbans?

Where do I start , Foxi ? I believe that your mind shall be blown by reading the article ... which Mark Hunter has so kindly provided a link to .

In short ... let us just say that he was very , very close to me .

 

[Gert Odendaal]

I have also been told several times that it is a problem to selectively shoot elephants for a regulation of the population , like we do that with other species.

Nevertheless , is there no alternative to culling ?

As I wrote in another posting , with the elephant trophy hunt and the shooting of old bulls we won't be able to manage the overpopulation of elephants in some countries.

Unfortunately not kurpfalzager, the capabilities to cull a large amount of elephants to safe the environment /habitat of other species does not exist at all. There are no large scale meat processing plants in National parks in Africa anymore..the one in Skukuza I believe is non-operational, there are not game rangers anymore to do these culling operations or administrative personnel knowledgeable enough /veterinary staff or culling staff to conduct such large scale operations anymore..all this stopped in 1994.
It is a fact that elephants will never be culled to the numbers they had been to balance the echo=system /environment ensuring habitat/species are not devastated by over population of elephants in our Game parks...the only hope we have is that nature will take care of over population using outbreaks of anthrax or poaching to such an extend that elephants numbers will de-crease to the benefit of other species and their habitats...( not a nice thing to say , but that is reality)..

 

[Foxi]

Unfortunately not kurpfalzager, the capabilities to cull a large amount of elephants to safe the environment /habitat of other species does not exist at all. There are no large scale meat processing plants in National parks in Africa anymore..the one in Skukuza I believe is non-operational, there are not game rangers anymore to do these culling operations or administrative personnel knowledgeable enough /veterinary staff or culling staff to conduct such large scale operations anymore..all this stopped in 1994.
It is a fact that elephants will never be culled to the numbers they had been to balance the echo=system /environment ensuring habitat/species are not devastated by over population of elephants in our Game parks...the only hope we have is that nature will take care of over population using outbreaks of anthrax or poaching to such an extend that elephants numbers will de-crease to the benefit of other species and their habitats...( not a nice thing to say , but that is reality)..

In addition, according to my PH in Zimb, who worked for 20 years in game management in Hangwe,via Facebook and others, people are calling for a travel boycott of these countries within a few hours, which is a serious damage for the elephant countries.
The big operations there have kept 300 people on their toes to get the job done. The shooters have always worked there in three man gun groups, plus a loader for everyone. The first shot was at the matriarch and then all the elephants ran around the lead cow like idiots. Does this speak for the intelligence of an elephant? Some say they are overrated.

 

[grand veneur]

Intelligence is difficult to define. Elephants live very long and this can lead to developing some behavioral patterns.

I still remain of the opinion that something should be tried to regulate the population by hunting. The disturbances and stress in some elephants caused by individual shots in a herd may have to be accepted at the beginning. Who knows if over time everything may allude and the population adapts to a constant hunting pressure. No one has tried it yet. It would be worth a try , especially due to the ongoing conflict between elephants and human people in some countries , without a solution being proposed.

 

[Hank2211]

In addition, according to my PH in Zimb, who worked for 20 years in game management in Hangwe,via Facebook and others, people are calling for a travel boycott of these countries within a few hours, which is a serious damage for the elephant countries.
The big operations there have kept 300 people on their toes to get the job done. The shooters have always worked there in three man gun groups, plus a loader for everyone. The first shot was at the matriarch and then all the elephants ran around the lead cow like idiots. Does this speak for the intelligence of an elephant? Some say they are overrated.

Be careful! Groups of human beings often do the same thing when a leader is missing! Of course, I never said the great mass of people were particularly intelligent either.

Seriously though, I don’t think this is about elephants’ intelligence or lack of it. It is about elephants’ social structures and the impact on the remaining animals of violently destroying those social structures. I am grateful to those who brought up the culling issue. I have read in many places that elephant cullers eventually moved from taking the odd animal out of a herd to destroying the entire herd, based on science. Taking odd animals caused no end of trouble down the road. Culling entire groups might have been more difficult for the cullers, but had a better overall long term result.

All of this is to say that killing tuskless females in herds may improve genetics, but at the cost of causing long term trauma to elephants, with negative consequences down the road.

Note that I said ‘may’ improve genetics. It seems that the tuskless trait is no less prevalent after decades of removing tuskless elephants from the gene pool, so even this rationale is suspect.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

In addition, according to my PH in Zimb, who worked for 20 years in game management in Hangwe,via Facebook and others, people are calling for a travel boycott of these countries within a few hours, which is a serious damage for the elephant countries.
The big operations there have kept 300 people on their toes to get the job done. The shooters have always worked there in three man gun groups, plus a loader for everyone. The first shot was at the matriarch and then all the elephants ran around the lead cow like idiots. Does this speak for the intelligence of an elephant? Some say they are overrated.

Foxi, elephants are really exceptional animals and highly intelligent. They have the capabilities to communicate low frequency through their feet at distances of thirty kilometer from each other..this was proof in research...the reason elephants will stay around the patriarg when she goes down is to try and revive her...elephants always will try to defend the downed elephant in their herd...they then will go immediately into attacking mode..Richard Harland was the only and single Game ranger and hunter who would when in need to cull a whole herd of elephants would have move in as near as possible to get into the herd where he locate the patriarg cow of the herd..he wil brain shot her then, she would collapse , hind legs first..Richard and his tracker would ran up the back leg of the elephant to get in a safe position on top of the dead elephant , from there he and his tracker will start culling/killing every elephant ..those who may ran of will be track and kill...this procedures are fully described in his great book....The Hunting Imperative, a real great book to have if you do not have it yet...