Hunting Elephant with Super HardCast?

CZDiesel

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I personally would have never thought that this is something that should be done but talked to a very very knowledgeable loader and Safari veteran and he told me that the Super HardCast bullets in DG cartridges are capable of shooting through an Elephant at any angle!?!?
What say you?
 
There's a 730gr wide flat nose hardcast for the .458s
And I know there's a 770gr for the 500NE, 500 Jeff guys, could likely be sized down to 505 Gibbs I would imagine. There is another in 715gr for the 505 as well as for the bigger 500 jeffs and such.

Just in case anybody is wondering, I mention these because these would also be going velocities that aren't as high as you'd normally see.

I know there's a 500 Jeff load with that 770gr at 2175fps which is also just a bit over 8k lb/ft energy
The 458 lott 730gr runs about 1800fps for 5250 lb/ft
460 Weatherby load at 2050 for that same bullet for 7k lb/ft
505 Gibbs 715gr load at 2300 for 8397 lb/ft

Just for some examples because there may be worry that speed may kill the idea, but if a person goes very heavy for caliber it seems speed can come down without killing energy.


I have no idea how viable they would truly be for penetrating 18" or so of bone for a frontal brain, would be interesting and I'd imagine these loads would surprise a guy.

Hopefully there are some that have experience with these bigger rounds and these hardcasts, otherwise it'll likely be a bunch of 45/70 related discussion...
 
This is the round I was told about…
IMG_0357.jpeg
 
Not advsable.

Unjacketed hardened lead bullets have been used in the late 19th century for elephant hunting with some success. But these were 3-4 Oz hardened conical lead bullets fired from 8-4 bore blackpowder rifles. Even then, frontal brain shots were seldom successful. Arthur H.Neumann began his ivory hunting career with a George Gibbs back action hammer double rifle in .577 Blackpowder Express (650Gr unjacketed lead bullets backed by 6.5 drams of Curtis & Harvey’s #6 coarse grain blackpowder). He was experiencing serious problems whenever frontal brain shots needed to be taken, although he was getting by well with side brain shots.

An unjacketed hard cast lead bullet traveling at a sufficient velocity can cleanly reach the brain of an African elephant with a side brain shot (provided that the bullet passes above the zygomatic arch). But the chances of failure are extremely high when a frontal brain shot becomes necessary.

Only use the best monometal (Rhino, DZOMBO, Northfork, Cutting Edge) or heavily jacketed FMJ solids (Wim Degol) which you can find on African elephant. Wrongly hit, they can die very hard.
 
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There are too many better options available when it comes to this. Specifically monolithic solids with a flat meplat like those from Cutting Edge or a Woodleigh Hydro.

I would not trust an unjacketed solid lead projectile to reach the brain regardless of weight, velocity and hardness. It’s not going to be harder than solid brass.

EDIT - @michael458 can school you on why the flat meplat is so important. He has a ton of data on the .458 caliber cartridges.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/flat-point-vs-round-nose-solids.83686/page-2#post-1258951
 
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I believe these bullets are made by CEB though I could be wrong? I’m not saying everyone isn’t correct but I love the knowledge that comes out of these discussions
 
A lot of 45-70 reloaders use the hard cast bullets that are .458 caliber.

As for CEB, I believe all of their bullets are brass and copper.
 
I believe all the CEB, Cutting Edge Bullets, Safari Solids are Brass........ the handgun solids are copper, and there is no such thing as CEB cast anything...... Some of the smaller caliber solids, such as .308 and I believe 6.5, I have some .224 caliber, all those are Copper.

Cast, hard or otherwise would not be suitable for elephant in my opinion, of course I am not up to date on the latest greatest cast, but regardless of Lead cast will flow, deform, and this is not good for deptho of penetration, nor straight line penetration.......

In 2002 I was in Zimbabwe and shooting elephant with 458 Lott (before good modern solids I used a Round Nose 500 gr Barnes, and while I got the elephant, it just was not impressive at all). I also had a Marlin Guide gun in 45/70, and this was a time before good modern bullets for 45/70 as well, I was shooting a 420 Cast Performance at 1920 fps. I had taken a buffalo with it, and I did indeed have some bullet performance issues that nearly caused an issue with the buffalo.

After we had the elephant down, taken with 458 Lott, my PH really liked the little guide gun, so after the head was removed we conducted a test with a side brain shot on the elephant head with the 45/70 and the 420 Cast Performance bullet at 10 yards. The tag says elephant skull, that is not exactly right, as it was the entire head intact. On a side brain, the bullet sheared off the cast meplat, and it turned into a pointy bullet, the bullet did manage to reach the brain, but was found only about 1 inch beyond the brain cavity far side......... This is absolutely not suitable. Cast Performance bullets are known for their hardness I believe...... On other Cast Performance bullets I also found similar behavior anytime bone was involved, the meplat just sheared off basically..........
This is covered in the 8 Factors of Solid Terminal Penetration under #3 Construction and Materials, although Cast or lead is not considered, it would fall under this category of Factors.

In todays world, even with Older Obsolete Cartridges, you do not have to use any Cast or any lead anymore, there is just no reason to do so. 20+ years ago in some cartridges, that might have been the only choice. But today, even if a bullet was not available for some really obscure caliber, you can have them made easy enough.......... If I was in that situation, I would call up Dan at CEB and ask for a specialty bullet in the #13 Solid profile, easy enough. I am sure the same would be available from some other manufactures as well. I recently had a desire for a particular solid in one of the smaller calibers, that was not commonly available, touched base with Dan, and in a few weeks I had 1000 of them.........

DSC02964-L.jpg
DSC04032-L.jpg
 
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Unjacketed bullet on elephant? In a 4-bore or maybe an 8-bore. But, I wouldn't try it with anything else.

I'm not sure I would entirely trust my 8-bore, even with 1200gr hard cast bullets. The chance of failure is higher than I feel is safe. If it was just my life on the line, then sure, I'd give it a go. But if the bullet failed and someone else was killed... I would have a hard time living with that.
 
So again I started this thread for discussion and seeing where the technology of cast bullets has come. I personally will not use them on my upcoming hunt but I still love to learn and with new bullet technology coming out all the time it’s worth exploring right…
So I was wrong it’s not CEB making the bullets, it’s Matt’s Bullets.
My understanding is they use a very high alloy content and heat treat for a Super Hard Cast that is supposedly as tough as a solid copper bullet?
Im gonna call them and see what they have to say and if they have some testing for us…
 

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I would be interested in the ruger if the other guy is not.
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