Hunting’s Newest Controversy: Snipers

I saw the video on this and it was excellent. Only problem I see is if that guy wants accuracy with that system, he needs to put the stock on that rest, not the barrel(as in the picture). I personally never shot over 350 yards until this year. I tried a set up this year that was not computerized and made 2 clean kills, one at 525 and 468 yards. I enjoyed this and can see how this will help aging hunters continue into the future when the legs aren't as good.
 
From a legal perspective: have at it (unless you mess it up for us all by wounding too many animals).

From an ethical perspective: I think of this more as killing--especially given all the technical//impersonal aid--than hunting, but that's just me.

From a PR perspective: yikes.

From a personal perspective: not my cup of tea. To me, hunting is getting close to an animal and even feeling a twinge of regret when I "break the egg" to make the omelet.

From a freedom perspective: to each his own--again, as long as you don't end up messing it up for the rest of us.
 
First off, the real debate shouldn't be about where this is ethical or not because that is up to the person holding the rifle or bow when hunting. A person could still take an "unethical" shot with one of these fancy systems.

Second, wounding animals, while not a nice thought, is actually a part of hunting. No hunter can guarantee, 100%, that they will never wound an animal, whether recovered or not. I'm an avid archery hunter, and I've passed on many shots others might have taken because I worry about wounding and animal. Just my personal choice. Maybe I would have successfully taken the animal and maybe not. I'll never know for sure.

Third, the real dilemna with all this modern tech is whether or not success rates will be so great that we as hunters reduce our opportunities to hunt. If there are only "X" licenses available due to population quotas, and we are 100% successful in our take, then every year, we would see a decline in opportunity in the field. We would be so efficient that less hunters would be needed.

Personally, I enjoy archery more than when I hunted with rifle. I must say the "rush" I feel when I'm so close I can smell the animals and look them in the eye is far greater than when I rifle hunted, so I disagree with the comment about that portion of the experience as being overrated. This is merely personal for me, as hunting should be for each individual.
 
The sport is divided on the ethics of using long-range shooting systems to take down game.

View attachment 166216

During his first 25 years hunting big game, Robert Phillips never killed from farther than 250 yards. He wasn’t certain how to calculate the pull of gravity on a bullet traveling farther than that, not to mention the harder-to-calculate effect of wind.

But four years ago, Phillips invested in a rifle and sighting system that does all that calculating for him. On a hunt in New Mexico this fall, Phillips downed an elk with one shot from 683 yards. His longest kill with this new gear came at 1,180 yards, four times beyond any conventional range.

“From that distance, the animal isn’t frightened. It’s not jittery. And you’re not jittery either,” says Phillips, a home builder in Columbus, Ind.

In this ancient American sport, the newest thing is a long-range-shooting system that measures distance, determines wind effect and fires high-powered ammunition. These systems turn hunters into snipers by taking the guesswork out of calculating the effects of gravity and wind on a bullet traveling as far as a mile. Applying technical expertise to firearm sighting systems, new players such as Gunwerks and TrackingPoint are winning shares of a market long dominated by venerable brands like Remington and Winchester. “A TrackingPoint Precision-Guided Firearm ensures never-before-seen precision at extreme distances,” says the website of TrackingPoint, based in Pflugerville, Texas.

Of about 14 million rifle hunters in America, about 5% are using new long-range systems, estimates Gunwerks founder Aaron Davidson. “And I would expect that 5% to turn into 50%,” says Davidson, a mechanical engineer who started his company in 2006. In the hopes of spurring such growth, Davidson’s company produces a cable hunting show called “Long Range Pursuit,” which he says gains about 300,000 viewers a week.

But as if big-game hunting weren’t controversial enough, many of the sport’s own practitioners disapprove of long-range hunting, calling it a violation of a tradition known as fair chase. Getting close to a deer or elk requires stealth and patience. Within 300 yards, the snap of a twig or sudden shift in wind can alert a wild animal that danger is near, sending it under cover. For the hunter, evading a wild animal’s exquisite senses can be one of the greatest thrills of the sport.

In this ancient American sport, the newest thing is a long-range-shooting system that measures distance, determines wind effect and fires high-powered ammunition. These systems turn hunters into snipers by taking the guesswork out of calculating the effects of gravity and wind on a bullet traveling as far as a mile. Applying technical expertise to firearm sighting systems, new players such as Gunwerks and TrackingPoint are winning shares of a market long dominated by venerable brands like Remington and Winchester. “A TrackingPoint Precision-Guided Firearm ensures never-before-seen precision at extreme distances,” says the website of TrackingPoint, based in Pflugerville, Texas.

Of about 14 million rifle hunters in America, about 5% are using new long-range systems, estimates Gunwerks founder Aaron Davidson. “And I would expect that 5% to turn into 50%,” says Davidson, a mechanical engineer who started his company in 2006. In the hopes of spurring such growth, Davidson’s company produces a cable hunting show called “Long Range Pursuit,” which he says gains about 300,000 viewers a week.

But as if big-game hunting weren’t controversial enough, many of the sport’s own practitioners disapprove of long-range hunting, calling it a violation of a tradition known as fair chase. Getting close to a deer or elk requires stealth and patience. Within 300 yards, the snap of a twig or sudden shift in wind can alert a wild animal that danger is near, sending it under cover. For the hunter, evading a wild animal’s exquisite senses can be one of the greatest thrills of the sport.

View attachment 166217
Mike Jernigan, a disabled veteran, uses his TrackingPoint 300 Winchester Magnum. PHOTO: MIKE JERNIGAN

Proponents of long-range hunting acknowledge that it can improve a hunter’s chances of making a kill. But what’s wrong with that, they ask, given that hunters often spend tens of thousands of dollars on equipment, travel and licenses in pursuit of animals whose numbers are abundant—sometimes overly abundant? They also say that long-range systems don’t eliminate the element of chase or the grind of hauling heavy equipment up mountains. “It’s no cakewalk,” says Phillips, a 65-year-old Gunwerks customer.

As for ethics, proponents say that super-accurate sighting systems make hunting more humane at any range, by killing animals instantly, thereby reducing the risk of wounded prey escaping. “Without TrackingPoint 14% of animals shot suffer and require two or more shots to be killed. Many are never found,” says a TrackingPoint document. “With TrackingPoint 99.5% of animals are cleanly harvested.”

South Carolina home builder William Sinnett bought a TrackingPoint system not only for himself but for his business partner, who had a habit of jerking when he fired upon a big-game animal.

“He had a tick, so he’d just wound an animal, and sometimes we’d find the animal and sometimes we wouldn’t,” says Sinnett, a former military sharpshooter. Since using the TrackingPoint system, however, “my business partner hasn’t missed a shot,” says Sinnett.

Proponents of long-range shooting also argue that the virtues of creeping close to a big-game animal are overblown. They note that bow hunting—which requires extraordinary stealth—often wounds rather than kills. “Bow hunters wound animals that get away—and that’s unethical,” says Phillips.

One factor likely to limit growth is cost. While a conventional deer rifle can be bought for a few hundred dollars, these ultra-sophisticated rifles and shooting systems can cost a few thousand dollars up to nearly $25,000.

Credit:
KEVIN HELLIKER

Source: http://www.wsj.com/articles/huntings-newest-controversy-snipers-1481316596

I would use it for taking out varmints etc as in pest destruction. I would not use it for general hunting.
 
I think there is a place (or places) for longer range shooting.

I've done some, in military and civilian settings.

Wild game is not my country's enemy, or an inanimate target...so I won't consider shooting at game at the often longer ranges seen when engaging the other two sorts of targets mentioned.

But I would not worry about being "sporting" when shooting commies or steel targets.

Each of us needs to search our own conscience regarding these things.
 
Not for me, unsporting, and very bad for PR.

However, to each his own :)
 
the old saying,get as close as you can,then get ten yard closer,sets well with me.the thrill of the stalk also excites me.as stated above,to each his or her own.
 
Anybody else see the irony in this post? " hunting's newest controversy ..snipers
We are concerned that snipers are entering the sport hunting? Well I think they been here for a while. :whistle:

From Wikipedia:
Etymology. The verb "to snipe" originated in the 1770s among soldiers in British India in reference to shooting snipe, which was considered a challenging target for marksmen.The agent noun "sniper" appears by the 1820s. The term sniper was first attested in 1824 in the sense of the word "sharpshooter

:):):)
 
High magnification scopes, high power rifles, precision loads, explosive bullets, ballistic programs, compound bows, trigger releases, bow sights, carbon fiber arrows, crossbows, illuminated crosshairs, rangefinders, heated treestands, camo clothing, scent control devices, insect repellents, ad nauseum. We can argue the pros and cons of long range hunting all we want but at the end of the day I think we should all go back and put on our loin cloth, grab our spears and go back to being real hunters. :p:D Cape buffalo and hippos would be good starts and get in there REAL close.

 
Going for the reload is seriously dangerous!
 
The sport is divided on the ethics of using long-range shooting systems to take down game.

View attachment 166216

During his first 25 years hunting big game, Robert Phillips never killed from farther than 250 yards. He wasn’t certain how to calculate the pull of gravity on a bullet traveling farther than that, not to mention the harder-to-calculate effect of wind.

But four years ago, Phillips invested in a rifle and sighting system that does all that calculating for him. On a hunt in New Mexico this fall, Phillips downed an elk with one shot from 683 yards. His longest kill with this new gear came at 1,180 yards, four times beyond any conventional range.

“From that distance, the animal isn’t frightened. It’s not jittery. And you’re not jittery either,” says Phillips, a home builder in Columbus, Ind.

In this ancient American sport, the newest thing is a long-range-shooting system that measures distance, determines wind effect and fires high-powered ammunition. These systems turn hunters into snipers by taking the guesswork out of calculating the effects of gravity and wind on a bullet traveling as far as a mile. Applying technical expertise to firearm sighting systems, new players such as Gunwerks and TrackingPoint are winning shares of a market long dominated by venerable brands like Remington and Winchester. “A TrackingPoint Precision-Guided Firearm ensures never-before-seen precision at extreme distances,” says the website of TrackingPoint, based in Pflugerville, Texas.

Of about 14 million rifle hunters in America, about 5% are using new long-range systems, estimates Gunwerks founder Aaron Davidson. “And I would expect that 5% to turn into 50%,” says Davidson, a mechanical engineer who started his company in 2006. In the hopes of spurring such growth, Davidson’s company produces a cable hunting show called “Long Range Pursuit,” which he says gains about 300,000 viewers a week.

But as if big-game hunting weren’t controversial enough, many of the sport’s own practitioners disapprove of long-range hunting, calling it a violation of a tradition known as fair chase. Getting close to a deer or elk requires stealth and patience. Within 300 yards, the snap of a twig or sudden shift in wind can alert a wild animal that danger is near, sending it under cover. For the hunter, evading a wild animal’s exquisite senses can be one of the greatest thrills of the sport.

In this ancient American sport, the newest thing is a long-range-shooting system that measures distance, determines wind effect and fires high-powered ammunition. These systems turn hunters into snipers by taking the guesswork out of calculating the effects of gravity and wind on a bullet traveling as far as a mile. Applying technical expertise to firearm sighting systems, new players such as Gunwerks and TrackingPoint are winning shares of a market long dominated by venerable brands like Remington and Winchester. “A TrackingPoint Precision-Guided Firearm ensures never-before-seen precision at extreme distances,” says the website of TrackingPoint, based in Pflugerville, Texas.

Of about 14 million rifle hunters in America, about 5% are using new long-range systems, estimates Gunwerks founder Aaron Davidson. “And I would expect that 5% to turn into 50%,” says Davidson, a mechanical engineer who started his company in 2006. In the hopes of spurring such growth, Davidson’s company produces a cable hunting show called “Long Range Pursuit,” which he says gains about 300,000 viewers a week.

But as if big-game hunting weren’t controversial enough, many of the sport’s own practitioners disapprove of long-range hunting, calling it a violation of a tradition known as fair chase. Getting close to a deer or elk requires stealth and patience. Within 300 yards, the snap of a twig or sudden shift in wind can alert a wild animal that danger is near, sending it under cover. For the hunter, evading a wild animal’s exquisite senses can be one of the greatest thrills of the sport.

View attachment 166217
Mike Jernigan, a disabled veteran, uses his TrackingPoint 300 Winchester Magnum. PHOTO: MIKE JERNIGAN

Proponents of long-range hunting acknowledge that it can improve a hunter’s chances of making a kill. But what’s wrong with that, they ask, given that hunters often spend tens of thousands of dollars on equipment, travel and licenses in pursuit of animals whose numbers are abundant—sometimes overly abundant? They also say that long-range systems don’t eliminate the element of chase or the grind of hauling heavy equipment up mountains. “It’s no cakewalk,” says Phillips, a 65-year-old Gunwerks customer.

As for ethics, proponents say that super-accurate sighting systems make hunting more humane at any range, by killing animals instantly, thereby reducing the risk of wounded prey escaping. “Without TrackingPoint 14% of animals shot suffer and require two or more shots to be killed. Many are never found,” says a TrackingPoint document. “With TrackingPoint 99.5% of animals are cleanly harvested.”

South Carolina home builder William Sinnett bought a TrackingPoint system not only for himself but for his business partner, who had a habit of jerking when he fired upon a big-game animal.

“He had a tick, so he’d just wound an animal, and sometimes we’d find the animal and sometimes we wouldn’t,” says Sinnett, a former military sharpshooter. Since using the TrackingPoint system, however, “my business partner hasn’t missed a shot,” says Sinnett.

Proponents of long-range shooting also argue that the virtues of creeping close to a big-game animal are overblown. They note that bow hunting—which requires extraordinary stealth—often wounds rather than kills. “Bow hunters wound animals that get away—and that’s unethical,” says Phillips.

One factor likely to limit growth is cost. While a conventional deer rifle can be bought for a few hundred dollars, these ultra-sophisticated rifles and shooting systems can cost a few thousand dollars up to nearly $25,000.

Credit:
KEVIN HELLIKER

Source: http://www.wsj.com/articles/huntings-newest-controversy-snipers-1481316596
Mike Jernigan won't be hitting much with his barrel on the rest like that... just saying!
 
High magnification scopes, high power rifles, precision loads, explosive bullets, ballistic programs, compound bows, trigger releases, bow sights, carbon fiber arrows, crossbows, illuminated crosshairs, rangefinders, heated treestands, camo clothing, scent control devices, insect repellents, ad nauseum. We can argue the pros and cons of long range hunting all we want but at the end of the day I think we should all go back and put on our loin cloth, grab our spears and go back to being real hunters. :p:D Cape buffalo and hippos would be good starts and get in there REAL close.

Target acquisition seems somewhat lacking
 
Some like Blondes, some Brunettes. Like most here I too like to see the "whites of their eyes".
These long range guys still have to do all the trip planning, recon, practice, etc. that a more conventional hunter would do to find a mountain or plain that has a elk, deer, bear, etc. at the time his is there to take that long shot.
As Hunters, Sportsmen, Outdoorsmen, whatever we like to call ourselves, we must stick together. As a whole we have a head count and voice that demands respect. Divided into groups of "we like this - but don't like that, PETA & FRIENDS will pick us off one group at a time.
 
Some like Blondes, some Brunettes. Like most here I too like to see the "whites of their eyes".
These long range guys still have to do all the trip planning, recon, practice, etc. that a more conventional hunter would do to find a mountain or plain that has a elk, deer, bear, etc. at the time his is there to take that long shot.
As Hunters, Sportsmen, Outdoorsmen, whatever we like to call ourselves, we must stick together. As a whole we have a head count and voice that demands respect. Divided into groups of "we like this - but don't like that, PETA & FRIENDS will pick us off one group at a time.

"we must all hang together or most assuredly we will all hang separately" Ben Franklin

Holds true for the hunting and shooting fraternity.
 
Not my thing but has its uses on particular hunts. Baboon for example.
 
I wonder if thousands of years ago if the folks using the atlatl scoffed at those adopting that new fangled 'bow and arrow' thing...
 
I wonder if thousands of years ago if the folks using the atlatl scoffed at those adopting that new fangled 'bow and arrow' thing...
Yep, just like the stick bow guys did when compound bows were introduced. Then crossbows, then trigger releases, then sights, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
 

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Grz63 wrote on x84958's profile.
Good Morning x84958
I have read your post about Jamy Traut and your hunt in Caprivi. I am planning such a hunt for 2026, Oct with Jamy.
Just a question , because I will combine Caprivi and Panorama for PG, is the daily rate the same the week long, I mean the one for Caprivi or when in Panorama it will be a PG rate ?
thank you and congrats for your story.
Best regards
Philippe from France
dlmac wrote on Buckums's profile.
ok, will do.
Grz63 wrote on Doug Hamilton's profile.
Hello Doug,
I am Philippe from France and plan to go hunting Caprivi in 2026, Oct.
I have read on AH you had some time in Vic Falls after hunting. May I ask you with whom you have planned / organized the Chobe NP tour and the different visits. (with my GF we will have 4 days and 3 nights there)
Thank in advance, I will appreciate your response.
Merci
Philippe
Grz63 wrote on Moe324's profile.
Hello Moe324
I am Philippe from France and plan to go hunting Caprivi in 2026, Oct.
I have read on AH you had some time in Vic Falls after hunting. May I ask you with whom you have planned / organized the Chobe NP tour and the different visits. (with my GF we will have 4 days and 3 nights there)
Thank in advance, I will appreciate your response.
Merci
Philippe
 
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